Ebondeath, Dracolich (decklist up)

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

Damn do I like Ebondeath, Dracolich. Flash is the raddest. Recursion is the raddest. Removing enemy creatures is the raddest. Let's gooooo.

Anyway, he hasn't gotten a lot of builds thus far, but what we do have on EDHrec seems focused around a couple of things:

-zombie tribal
-playing Stinging Study for some reason honestly wtf
-grave pacty sacky stuff

All these things are boring and cringe so we're not doing that. While I get the urge to do the grave pact stuff, Ebondeath is worse even than Narfi, Betrayer King who recurs for just 3, provides a second color, doesn't require death to recur, and is still a lot worse than Bloodghast or Reassembling Skeleton or whatever. I don't see much point to using Ebondeath as a worse version of a bad commander that's himself the fallback option for better creatures. So what does ebondeath give us that the Narfster doesn't?

-Flying
-Flash and cheaper on initial cast
-Extra point of power
-Being a badass dragon named "ebondeath" instead of some dude named "Narfi", like seriously wtf is up with that name

Okay, so beyond the obvious draw of being a BAMF, the main things here is increased combat efficacy. Narfi needs a lot of help to hit 21 points, whereas Ebondeath with a Sword of Algebra can do a 3-hitter through most blockers. So I'm thinking, lean into that. Go voltron control. Voltron generally wants control anyway to stop someone winning via a less horrifically inefficient method, so removal is already a natural fit, and now it gives us a reliable way to cast our commander. We may also want to toss in a few self-recurring boys and land-based sac outlets just in case people aren't cooperating by casting creatures, or if someone tries to exile Ebondeath we can dump him in the grave.

So I'm thinking something like:

Equipment: 10 slots (relatively light since he's already pretty hard-hitting)
Self-recurring stuff: 3 slots
Tutors: 7 slots
Removal: 25 slots
Draw: 5 slots (some overlap with equipment and maybe land)
Ramp: 10 slots
Land: 40 slots

Thoughts?

EDIT:

Decklist:
Ebondeath, Dracolich

Commander (1)


Little Undead Buddies (4)


Control (31)


Approximate Total Cost:

Last edited by DirkGently 3 months ago, edited 2 times in total.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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materpillar
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Post by materpillar » 3 months ago

My thought is getting him real drunk on Wine of Blood and Iron. Extra points for Rite of Consumption and Disciple of Bolas.

Edit: welp I just re-read the wine. I thought it sac'd the creature not itself. Lame.

My second thought is Amulet of Vigor tribal. XD
Control deck based around recursive boys who have an ETB tapped clause so they can't block. Ultimate skeletal dragon based pillowfort. The most super of vigilance.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

Lol, I was thinking "I'm pretty sure WoBaI is one of those cards that's too bad to use anywhere" but I couldn't remember why off the top of my head. Yep, that card kinda sucks. 4 to activate is a ton too. It's sure no Exponential Growth.

Amulet of vigor is cute and we could tutor it fairly easily, but how much actual synergy is there? Having an recurrable fat blocker for 4 is neat but I'm not sure I see the payoff worth building the deck around it.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 months ago

I had a Squee the Immortal list that was built up on cost reduction and spam casting my commander. Its possible that something similar could work with this commander as a weird aristocrats concept. Its a bit harder as you have less outlets to sac for colored mana as I had Thermopod and Skirk Prospector. I guess on the flip side though you get all the Cabal Coffers and there is still Pitiless Plunderer.

Just a random thought if you are still brainstorming concepts I guess. The fact that the dragon picked up another colorless instead of colored mana means that Urza's Incubator is really useful. Bontu's Monument also seems like a nice everything you would want for spam casting the commander as well. Too bad mono black doesn't get to use Warstorm Surge effects though.

I will just toss a few other random artifacts from my squee list into a list here:
Its not really relivant but I am stealing a lot of the concept of what I was thinking from my squee list. So I guess I will link that even though it isn't that relivant.
Last edited by ISBPathfinder 3 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
[EDH] Sram (auras) | Bruna | Heliod | Sai | Naban | Anje

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

I think that build seems best for Acererak the Archlich - you can't use certain things like Phyrexian Altar, but he does create value automatically and costs 1 less.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 months ago
I think that build seems best for Acererak the Archlich - you can't use certain things like Phyrexian Altar, but he does create value automatically and costs 1 less.
Its a little different since Archlich isn't dying. It means that a lot of your triggers are different as well as your payoff.
[EDH] Sram (auras) | Bruna | Heliod | Sai | Naban | Anje

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 months ago
Its a little different since Archlich isn't dying. It means that a lot of your triggers are different as well as your payoff.
It is different, but at the end of the day I don't see a sweet dragon with an aggressive statline and think "ooh, I can't wait to sac that a thousand times." Plus it feels like the wholegoal of the deck would be to go infinite, which is not my cuppa and why I decided not to work on Acererak.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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materpillar
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Post by materpillar » 3 months ago

Side note: Acererak the Archlich and Urza's Incubator seems absurd. BBBBBB for scry 1, 2, 3, make 2 skeletons and then draw 3 cast one for free? Yiiiiikes. Panharmonicon to make it BBB. Eeeep.

There's also Tormod, the Desecrator. I'm a pretty big fan of sac outlet + Amulet of Vigor and now it's insanely hard for anyone to ever attack you ever. Then, set up some graveyard loops with Tormod, the Desecrator/Urza's Incubator and standard aristocrats stuff while you beat people down with your dragon.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

Oh yeah, Acererak is pretty bananas. Similarly nasty with Heartless Summoning except cheaper.

I feel like I've played with and against the grave pact aristocrats stuff a million times. Mono-black voltron would be new for me, and I think the play patterns are more interesting since it's a lot more tactical and decision-based instead of setting up value engines and letting them spin.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 months ago

materpillar wrote:
3 months ago
Side note: Acererak the Archlich and Urza's Incubator seems absurd. BBBBBB for scry 1, 2, 3, make 2 skeletons and then draw 3 cast one for free? Yiiiiikes. Panharmonicon to make it BBB. Eeeep.

There's also Tormod, the Desecrator. I'm a pretty big fan of sac outlet + Amulet of Vigor and now it's insanely hard for anyone to ever attack you ever. Then, set up some graveyard loops with Tormod, the Desecrator/Urza's Incubator and standard aristocrats stuff while you beat people down with your dragon.
I have been working on getting a Toshiro Umezawa aristocrats deck off the ground and I was planning to bring Ebondeath, Dracolich in the 99 for. I likewise run Tormod, the Desecrator in the deck.

EDIT: It sounds like you want to go a bit more voltron with the concept. That is probably fine and the commander does have a fairly good power and flying to try for that. The downside is that going voltron feels a bit like it trades off the value of being able to cast him from grave unless you encounter a bunch of decks that kill a bunch of things. I am only saying that the casting from the grave becomes a lot more reactive based on opponents concept when going voltron. I think that a big power of Ebondeath, Dracolich is the ability to stay back on defense but that seems to lead more to the controlling aristocrats concept I was talking about.
[EDH] Sram (auras) | Bruna | Heliod | Sai | Naban | Anje

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 3 months ago

This might not be what you're looking for, but the cost reduction mentioned got me thinking about loops to/from graveyard. I think that Heartless Summoning, Phyrexian Altar and, Carnival of Souls set up an arbitrary casting loop. Add Bontu's Monument, Ayara, First of Locthwain or similar generate a drain wincon, and Dark Prophecy type effects to generate card advantage. With Panharmonicon you could drop the Altar for a different sacrifice outlet. He can easily feed cards like Whisper, Blood Liturgist and because he has flash you can play a very reactive reanimator style.

I think the best cards for him are actually cost reduction for that reason.

Going more voltron reminds me of Nightmare Lash and Lashwrithe, which I have not though about since I was trying to make Korlash, Heir to Blackblade work.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | Lavinia | Silumgar | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Kydele & Thrasios | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Gisela | Feather | Osgir | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Vial & Ravos | Marchesa | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Genju | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Golos | Horde | Najeela | Traxos

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

You're correct that I'm not really interested in sac loops and discounts since I think the end goal is inevitably infinite combo.

Not actually super sold on lash, surprisingly. We need 6 swamps to make a 2-hitter, fewer than that and it's overpriced, and it provides no evasion or protection like swords do. And I don't think this is a urborg coffers big mana deck so 6 swamps is probably a lot.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 months ago

I would consider ditching the whole equipment voltron crap and look more at stuff like Unspeakable Symbol and Hatred that doesn't need to pay equip costs. There're a decent number of these types of things in black, even going back oldschool with Howl from Beyond and Bloodcurdling Scream.

Liliana of the Dark Realms too :P

I'm sure you could come up with a deck there that doesn't need equipment and can mana sink and get people sometimes at instant speed. Fuel it with coffers mana etc.

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Post by wildfire393 » 3 months ago

When I see a self-recursive dragon legend, my mind jumps to three cards; Boneyard Scourge, Bladewing's Thrall, and Scourge of Nel Toth. I've been trying for a long time to craft a shell wherein these cards do something together. Maybe Ebondeath is that shell. Probably not though.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

I tried and failed to get an ebondeath over the weekend. Christ what a %$#% bunch of pulls. Had the pleasure of losing to two different people with Iymrith, Desert Doom and Mind Flayer, either of which was better than any card I opened all weekend in 5 prereleases. ugh. At least I got enough tickets to buy my set of commander precons. Anyway.

@pokken - what's wrong with equipment? Unspeakable symbol seems suicidal, you'd have to pay 48 life to one-shot people, or 18 to 2-shot. At that point you're basically committing to only doing it once, so removal owns you (same for hatred etc), when one of the major benefits of using Ebondeath in the first place is his durability. Swords of X and Y put him into 3-shot lethal range with all the other usual benefits, idk why people don't seem to be sold on the idea. Until this set, there were no 5-power 4-mana flying legends with no restrictions - ebondeath and orcus are the first. Seems like a slam-dunk for voltron to me.

@wildfire393 - I did notice thrall on edhrec, forgot about boneyard scourge. Scourge of nel toth seems less useful. If you're sacking ebondeath it's all pretty expensive. Of course it could be good in a deck with bloodghast and all the usual suspects, but that's not really what I'm interested in for this particular commander.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

Wallycaine
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Post by Wallycaine » 3 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 months ago
@pokken - what's wrong with equipment? Unspeakable symbol seems suicidal, you'd have to pay 48 life to one-shot people, or 18 to 2-shot. At that point you're basically committing to only doing it once, so removal owns you (same for hatred etc), when one of the major benefits of using Ebondeath in the first place is his durability. Swords of X and Y put him into 3-shot lethal range with all the other usual benefits, idk why people don't seem to be sold on the idea. Until this set, there were no 5-power 4-mana flying legends with no restrictions - ebondeath and orcus are the first. Seems like a slam-dunk for voltron to me.
I think the big hurdle is that planning to reequip the swords each and every time takes Ebondeath from "efficient" to "kinda expensive". Sure, he'll 3 shot someone... but at that point, you're looking at 6 mana invested for each time he falls, and 6 mana 7 power commanders that don't do much else aren't terribly exciting (obviously Ebon is slightly better because you can break up the payments, but it's still a hurdle). Voltron tries to get around this problem by being hard to kill in the first place or getting discounts on re-equipping, but Ebondeath doesn't push you towards the former (you're not making use of his recursion if he's never dying), and you're in the wrong color for free equips.

That said, I agree Unspeakable Symbol seems bad in this deck. If you leaned hard into lifegain, it might go up in value, though. One interesting direction *might* be looking at anthem effects that will stick on the board? Something like perennial jank card Death Pit Offering might be interesting? It gives the same bonus as a sword, but without the cost to reequip each time. Altar of the Goyf is another weird one along those lines, and there's some black Exalted cards that could play in the same space?

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Post by pokken » 3 months ago

Symbol would be pretty sick with stuff like whip of erebos but yeah prob not enough lifelink support in mono black. Mostly just vito and whip.

Hatred is bananas and would be solid..

The think I don't like about equipment is how done it is. And super tempo vulnerable and soft to artifact sweepers and hate. And telegraphed.

I could get behind some huge stuff like runechanters pike and lashwrithe I guess? But just jamming a bunch of swords and trying to three shot people just seems so bad.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
3 months ago
I think the big hurdle is that planning to reequip the swords each and every time takes Ebondeath from "efficient" to "kinda expensive". Sure, he'll 3 shot someone... but at that point, you're looking at 6 mana invested for each time he falls, and 6 mana 7 power commanders that don't do much else aren't terribly exciting (obviously Ebon is slightly better because you can break up the payments, but it's still a hurdle).
By the time you invest 6 mana, he's not just a 7-power "doesn't do much else" - he's got flying, 2 protections, and whatever saboteur triggers the sword has. But the more important difference is that, in comparison to say Rafiq of the Many (or whatever 7-natural-power commander you might think of), he's 6 mana EVERY time. Rafiq can get priced out, Ebon can't (without grave hate or something). 6 mana is a lot on turn 5 but it's easy on turn 12.

Also he has flash. For a control deck, that's a huge bonus.
Voltron tries to get around this problem by being hard to kill in the first place or getting discounts on re-equipping, but Ebondeath doesn't push you towards the former (you're not making use of his recursion if he's never dying), and you're in the wrong color for free equips.
I really think you've overstating the cost of equips here. Usually you'll play a SoXaY on 3, hold up removal and flash ebon on 4, then equip and you have 3 mana still up for responses. And that's the most significant point for the equip cost. I can't see how that would be remotely problematic. Past turn 3 we should never have a problem keeping up mana.
That said, I agree Unspeakable Symbol seems bad in this deck. If you leaned hard into lifegain, it might go up in value, though.
holy jesus how much lifegain are we planning to do? Enough to make 18 life viable? To avoid paying 2 mana we're going to gain 18 life?
One interesting direction *might* be looking at anthem effects that will stick on the board? Something like perennial jank card Death Pit Offering might be interesting? It gives the same bonus as a sword, but without the cost to reequip each time. Altar of the Goyf is another weird one along those lines, and there's some black Exalted cards that could play in the same space?
If we only care about ebon, there wouldn't be much reason to run DPO over, say, Sword of the Chosen. Or, for that matter, Bonesplitter. Even if you think ebon is going to die a ton of times, 1 mana on turn 8 isn't worth tapping out on an early turn imo. Especially 4 considering we probably want to play ebon on that turn.

Altar of the Goyf is a bit more interesting but it gets into that awkward range where it's really unlikely to 2-hit someone but there are way more efficient ways to 3-hit someone.

All the black exalted cards are limited jank (and worse - creatures :sick: not in my control deck) except arguably Cathedral of War, which might be worth including. Not really enough on its own, though.

@pokken

Hatred is amazing 1v1, multiplayer...eh. 16 life is still a ton and we get absolutely shredded by removal. One of ebon's biggest benefits is his durability, I just don't see the point of building him if our goal is to one-shot someone. We'd be way better off with Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed or something. Whereas I would argue there's no mono-black commander better at holding a sword than ebondeath - especially not in a control deck full of board wipes.

Done, eh sure, but it's done because it's fun imo. Besides, this is a different spin to a certain extent since it's mono-black. Voltron is a whole archetype, every deck is going to be a bit different. This is going to be relative low-equipment, high control. The more I think about it, even 10 slots for equipment is probably too much for what we want to do here.

It's really not that tempo vulnerable. We're not trying to slap 50 swords on, just 1 (maybe a few at most). For the same reason, our vulnerability to artifact sweepers is minimal, and even without equipment he's still a 5-power flyer for 4 that can be recast after a trade. A big reason voltron can get tempo'd out is that their commander gets priced off the field. Here, that's not gonna happen. 4 mana, every time, with flash, and that mana will keep getting less and less significant as the game goes on.

Telegraphed, absolutely. Wins that aren't telegraphed aren't earned. Gotta give the scrubs a fair chance to try to stop us. :grin: Ebondeath screams inevitability.

Not sold on lashwrithe, I don't think we'll have enough swamps. Runechanter's might be okay, I don't love p/t-only equips though.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

Wallycaine
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Post by Wallycaine » 3 months ago

To be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible to make work. You asked why people were down on the idea, and that's why. You don't have to agree with it, and it's certainly possible that concerns about reequipping are overstated, but that's the *why*.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

I wanted to know why people are down on equipment with ebondeath in specific, and with this particular build. I would argue tempo is of far lesser concern with ebondeath than with almost any other commander, between flash and his static cost. Unless you just think voltron just shouldn't be done ever I don't see the problem.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Wallycaine » 3 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 months ago
I wanted to know why people are down on equipment with ebondeath in specific, and with this particular build. I would argue tempo is of far lesser concern with ebondeath than with almost any other commander, between flash and his static cost. Unless you just think voltron just shouldn't be done ever I don't see the problem.
As I mentioned previously, other voltron builds tend to either try to keep the commander on the board (which Ebondeath, rightly or wrongly, makes people think is not the primary plan), or are in colors that can mitigate the costs or re-equipping with stuff like Puresteel Paladin. Ebondeath is not in that color (which is pretty exclusively white or white/red), hence it brings to mind the fact that you'll be re-equipping a lot.

Edit: Basically, you're going for a strategy that has all the primary payoffs (at least in most people's minds) in other colors. So that leaves the big payoff as a 7 power commander, which brings all the weaknesses of other voltrons into relief, without the strengths of getting to use those payoff abilities.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

I would argue that invulnerability is not terribly synergistic with equipment- ofc it's helpful, but if you're planning for your commander to never die you're losing a lot of the value that equipment has over auras in that it can be reattached.

Besides, Ebondeath has a sort of protection in that, even though he's vulnerable to most removal, people are probably a lot less likely to waste it on him since he'll just come back.

This particular build is also far less vulnerable to tempo because we're not playing 20+ equipment that absorb tons of mana whenever we reset, and also we have a smaller surface for removal to be used against us.

The mana we save on recasting matches the tempo we'd save with a free reequip on the very first recast. After that, we're ahead. Besides, with 10- equipment I wouldn't play puresteel paladin even if he was on-colour.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by wildfire393 » 3 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 months ago
@wildfire393 - I did notice thrall on edhrec, forgot about boneyard scourge. Scourge of nel toth seems less useful. If you're sacking ebondeath it's all pretty expensive. Of course it could be good in a deck with bloodghast and all the usual suspects, but that's not really what I'm interested in for this particular commander.
Yeah, in my mind I'm seeing a setup where you like, sac Ebondeath and Thrall to cast Nel Toth, which triggers Boneyard scourge so you bring that back, and can then recast Dracolich, with a couple of interspersed Thrall sacs in between to Phyrexian Altar or something to generate the mana to pay for it all.

Something is missing in there to make it really churn though - it likely needs to include red and/or green so you can include stuff like Dragon Tempest, Lathliss, Dragon Queen, Scourge of Valkas, Elemental Bond/other green draw engines, etc.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 months ago

You could still potentially throw in an Altar of Dementia as it has some good synergy with the size of the commander and if you juice him up with some Nightmare Lash action thats a fairly intense mill cannon. It does get back into the realm of looping the commander but its not as all in of a strategy as a lot of the aristocrat concepts were. It does also allow you to self mill for those creatures that do self rez that wildfire mentioned.
[EDH] Sram (auras) | Bruna | Heliod | Sai | Naban | Anje

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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

Decklist up. The more I think about it, the more I'm not sure if it's worth the slots for the self-recurring dudes, as the only real point is to be able to recast Ebondeath, which isn't even a guarantee unless we have one of the two sac-outlet lands. They do provide a backup option for equipment, but it's not like we (should) ever really need that.

On the other hand, clattering augur and death tyrant are both awesome and I haven't gotten to play with either. And I'm not really sure what I'd add...I guess even more control? We've got about a thousand repeatable draw engines already and probably plenty of mana so idk what else we'd really want.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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