A VERY serious deck idea: winning the game by leaving the game (lethal vapors + kardur "combo" aka SAW VII: the deck)

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 8 months ago

EDIT:

Decklist!
SAW VII: Kardur's House of Death

Commander (1)


Let's call it a combo (2)


Dash of Control (4)


Approximate Total Cost:

OP:

This is an incredibly stupid idea...maybe more like an achievement to unlock, but it makes me laugh so I kinda want to try to do it.

The commander that made me think about it is Kardur, Doomscourge. His wording is the same as goad has always been, but for some reason while reading it this time an idea struck me - the duration of his etb trigger is "until your next turn"...well, what if you NEVER TAKE ANOTHER TURN! CHECKMATE!

My next thought was "well, that's a very silly way to come in second". Your opponents are forced to attack each other, but ultimately it'll be 1v1 and you have no more turns. So...that's not going to end well.

Or is it?

Kardur's got another ability, which conveniently drains the life from your opponents while they're forced to beat the crap out of each other. But unless you get spectacularly lucky, that's probably not going to win you the game. But it definitely helps. What you need is just a little bit of *extra* help. Stuff like Revenge of Ravens and Hissing Miasma...maybe some Sulfuric Vortex, Roiling Vortex...and of course, make sure they've got plenty of tokens with Akroan Horse, Genesis Chamber, etc, lots of little small bodies to help ensure that combat is frequent, and results in lots and lots of death.

There aren't a ton of cards that last "until your next turn", but any negative "every upkeep" effect does work, plus anything that triggers on things your opponents are doing but you won't be, like Pyrostatic Pillar and Spellshock. Finally, if you want to get lazy with your Saw-esque house of horrors you're creating for your opponents, you could always sandbag one last burn spell to try to finish off the last opponent and catch them unaware, but frankly I think it's a lot funnier if you can create a board state so hostile that they can't figure a way out alive, even without your interference. What could be more rakdos than that?

Anyway, as far as "stuff to look for", so far I've got:

Lethal Vapors (plus a ton of tutors for it obviously since it's the crucial piece of the puzzle)
"until your next turn" effects, primarily Kardur.
bad "every upkeep" effects.
bad "whenever you do X" effects, where X is something people are probably going to do like casting spells, drawing cards, attacking, etc.
effects that grant opponents tokens.
possibly one efficient last-ditch burn spell

Any other ideas to contribute to this stupid nonsense are greatly appreciated.
Last edited by DirkGently 8 months ago, edited 2 times in total.
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Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by folding_music » 8 months ago

this is really funny :3 if there was ever a deck for Caltrops...
Shame you can't run Chronatog too, alas

Citadel of Pain'll be great, and Fireblast works as a surprise finisher that's harmonious with never again untapping your land. Pyrokinesis would get you out of one instance of trouble, too.

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Post by Ruiner » 8 months ago

I think you need to have white or green in the deck to make the concept work.

If you just activate Lethal Vapors and say "I'm doing this X times while holding priority to skip my next X turns", every other player can do the same.

With white you can use Grand Abolisher and in green you can use City of Solitude to stop that. I'd probably go white for the enchantment tutors. Although green tutors for creatures and you want Kardur. I guess the tutors don't really matter, this a black deck so just the black tutors are probably good.

Also, I have a suicide red/black deck led by Rakdos the Defiler and I can tell you Havoc Festival is a ton of fun. Especially in your concept where you aren't taking turns.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 8 months ago

Loop Eater of Days somehow?
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Post by DirkGently » 8 months ago

That is something I considered, but I *think* it won't be a problem. It depends how cooperative your opponents are, basically, which you can disarm by insisting on strict priority passing. Let's say you activate it x1000 and then pass. The first player has a chance to skip a turn, but he doesn't get to know if the other players will *for sure* and might end up a turn down for the blood games. Depending how deadly the scenario is, he might want to skip his turn anyway, though, so I guess it depends. But if anyone decides they want to keep their turns, you're in business. It has to be 100% agreement to turn-skip to wreck the "combo". And since it's obviously such a silly janky plan, I don't think people are going to be toooo worried about it (probably) to where they feel they need to.

But alternative pitch is much cleaner - Claws of Gix. Vapors resolves, hold priority, activate x1000, activate claws sacking lethal vapors, pass priority. No opportunity for interference unless they can kill claws in response, and no additional color requirements.

Btw I realized while going through cards that this hasn't actually worked until Kardur. Goad doesn't affect creatures that enter after it resolves (unless you somehow goad them too). Kardur applies to all enemy creatures, forever, provided you don't take another turn.
Last edited by DirkGently 8 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by EonAon » 8 months ago

Conjurer's Closet is your backup plan since it blinks the creature at eot meaning you never get attacked unless they cycle and destroy either your general or closet.

Supernatural Stamina
Undying Evil
Malakir Rebirth // Malakir Mire
Abnormal Endurance
the above are your manipulators when they try and kill it and fail :)

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Post by materpillar » 8 months ago

I built a 5c version of this deck here when I was inspired to try to break Chronatog. I was trying to not completely lock myself out of the game by using flash + Seedborn Muse and stuff while skipping all my turns. Even so that thread is going to have basically every card worth considering for you.

Glancing through that thread you're 100% going to want Glacial Chasm and Havoc Festival. Smokestack is also worth considering.

The problem is a lot of the best "until your next turn" effects are white. A huge issue with using Lethal Vapors to "combo" is that your opponents can respond to you skipping a million turns by also skipping a million turns. so you need something like Grand Abolisher/Trickbind to lock them off doing that which aren't available in BR.

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Post by DirkGently » 8 months ago

materpillar wrote:
8 months ago
The problem is a lot of the best "until your next turn" effects are white. A huge issue with using Lethal Vapors to "combo" is that your opponents can respond to you skipping a million turns by also skipping a million turns. so you need something like Grand Abolisher/Trickbind to lock them off doing that which aren't available in BR.
I've solved that problem already - Claws of Gix.

Teferi's protection did occur to me and is pretty powerful obviously, but it seems a lot less funny and sporting than hoping Kardur and co and kill the enemy before they find a way to kill you. Protection + vapors is, like, a legitimate combo. I want something a little...stupider.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Ruiner » 8 months ago

I like the Claws of Gix solution.

A few other cards for consideration:

Bedlam - No blocking allowed with forced attacks could be nice.

Endless Whispers - This keeps the battle going. You may need Homeward Path and/or sac outlets in case people just give everything to you.

Death Pits of Rath - Guarantees Kardur's attacking creatures dying trigger goes off if people do decide to block.

Rite of the Raging Storm - Make sure everyone always has a big creature to swing with.

Platinum Emperion or Platinum Angel - This might be too tough to get out prior to your combo but would prevent people from ruining your fun with big X damage spells.

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Post by Dunharrow » 8 months ago

If you do decide to run white, then Ghen, Arcanum Weaver should be your general to sac vapors.

You can also run Skophos Warleader, Slaughter-Priest of Mogis, and even Final Flare. I think you need multiple ways to stop others from activating Vapors if you want to have any replay potential.
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Post by materpillar » 8 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
8 months ago
If you do decide to run white, then Ghen, Arcanum Weaver should be your general to sac vapors.
Oooooh I really like this idea! That neatly solves your opponents skipping turns (like Claws of Gix) but from the command zone. You can build a group slug enchantress build and then skip all the turns once you feel like you've got lethal established. It also lets you get into white for a bunch of those tasty can't do stuff until my turn cards. Admittedly this will be much more of a deck deck and much less of a 1-off meme your opponents out deck.
DirkGently wrote:
8 months ago
Teferi's protection did occur to me and is pretty powerful obviously, but it seems a lot less funny and sporting than hoping Kardur and co and kill the enemy before they find a way to kill you. Protection + vapors is, like, a legitimate combo. I want something a little...stupider.
Teferi's Protection is way less of a combo than you think. You lose to a single eldrazi (or similar effect) or alt-win. There's also a handful of ways to get around its damage prevention (like Questing Beast.

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Post by DirkGently » 8 months ago

Ruiner wrote:
8 months ago
Bedlam - No blocking allowed with forced attacks could be nice.
I considered it, but I really want creatures to die while attacking because of Kardur so probably not.
Endless Whispers - This keeps the battle going. You may need Homeward Path and/or sac outlets in case people just give everything to you.
Yeah that one is pretty interesting. I think there are better ways to ensure people keep attacking, though, like Tombstone Stairwell.
Death Pits of Rath - Guarantees Kardur's attacking creatures dying trigger goes off if people do decide to block.
good idea, yes.
Rite of the Raging Storm - Make sure everyone always has a big creature to swing with.
Yep, already got it in there.
Platinum Emperion or Platinum Angel - This might be too tough to get out prior to your combo but would prevent people from ruining your fun with big X damage spells.
Seems way too fragile and not that useful. Emperion stops Kardur from gaining me life too.
Dunharrow wrote:
8 months ago
If you do decide to run white, then Ghen, Arcanum Weaver should be your general to sac vapors.
That's a decent point but Kardur is by far the more unique and important effect. Anyway I don't think white really has much in terms of effects we want, RB is really the primary focus for this group slug stuff.
You can also run Skophos Warleader, Slaughter-Priest of Mogis, and even Final Flare. I think you need multiple ways to stop others from activating Vapors if you want to have any replay potential.
Ooh, I missed those with my searches, good call. Not sure I actually want to run something as clunky as a 5-drop sac outlet but who knows.
Ruiner wrote:
8 months ago
Oh, also Geode Rager might be decent as a Plan B.
Doesn't work because it doesn't affect new creatures.
materpillar wrote:
8 months ago
Oooooh I really like this idea! That neatly solves your opponents skipping turns (like Claws of Gix) but from the command zone. You can build a group slug enchantress build and then skip all the turns once you feel like you've got lethal established. It also lets you get into white for a bunch of those tasty can't do stuff until my turn cards. Admittedly this will be much more of a deck deck and much less of a 1-off meme your opponents out deck.
Hmm I'm not seeing many of those? A few that prevent attacking you (mostly Chronomantic Escape), but I think you'd still really want Kardur or else people can take their time and scheme to kill you, unless you've really got a good slug setup going, which seems a lot harder than the work Kardur does on his own.

Anyway it is potentially interesting but the combo with Kardur is definitely the direction I want to go with this deck.
Teferi's Protection is way less of a combo than you think. You lose to a single eldrazi (or similar effect) or alt-win. There's also a handful of ways to get around its damage prevention (like Questing Beast.
I guess that's true, but that also seems like a really boring way to win or lose. It's basically 100% or 0% depending on what they have in their deck. And protection makes it a lot harder to set up a group slug death condition.

Anyway, it's definitely a cute idea too but Kardur is what this deck is about, because he makes it easier to create a "here are the obstacles, can you solve it before you kill each other?" sort of puzzle, instead of a "do you have a reshuffle effect?" question.
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Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Dunharrow » 8 months ago

I just want to say I really like the idea of activating Lethal Vapors 24601 times, sacrificing it, then going to get some food or watching TV, occasionally checking with the others if you won yet.

But more realistically, one person will be left standing and will find a way to kill you at some point, right?
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Post by DirkGently » 8 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
8 months ago
I just want to say I really like the idea of activating Lethal Vapors 24601 times, sacrificing it, then going to get some food or watching TV, occasionally checking with the others if you won yet.

But more realistically, one person will be left standing and will find a way to kill you at some point, right?
So the theoretical simplest win would be play Kardur, play vapors, skip a million turns, pass, your opponents attack each other, and either the last 2 players kill each other (i.e. by one of them attacking for lethal, but enough creatures dying in the damage step that Kardur triggers kill the attacking player) or by them dying to Kardur triggers on their next turn when they have to attack into you.

Obviously that would require some pretty extreme luck for Kardur to live, no one to win in some other way, and for the numbers to work out that cleanly, but it could happen.

So that's why you've got some extra help from cards like Sulfuric Vortex, Havoc Festival, Tombstone Stairwell, Revenge of Ravens, etc to make sure that they can't just sit there and wait until they can set up good attacks against you. They're on the clock, it's just that the clock doesn't require you to do anything except watch.

Ofc it's probably going to be pretty impossible to win if someone wipes your artifacts and enchantments, but that's just how it goes I guess. There aren't a lot of ways to protect them, especially in these colors. Some hand disruption like Awaken the Erstwhile would definitely help a lot though. Anyway this isn't really supposed to be a high-win% deck but more of an achievement/meme deck. Although if it does end up being good, then that would be pretty sweet.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Feyd_Ruin » 8 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
8 months ago
His wording is the same as goad has always been, but for some reason while reading it this time an idea struck me - the duration of his etb trigger is "until your next turn"...
The most important difference from goad is one that I had to immediately look up and verify:
Kardur's first ability affects all creatures your opponent's control, including any that enter the battlefield after the ability resolves.
DirkGently wrote:
8 months ago
I've solved that problem already - Claws of Gix.
For redundancy, make sure you add Infernal Tribute too :)
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Post by EonAon » 8 months ago

Rampaging Ferocidon
Hunted Dragon
Hunted Horror
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent
Captive Audience
Ferocidon is another turn off lifegain while also punishing any creatures entering the battlefield.
the other two are cards that interact with closet and etb effects and MAKE your opponents have creatures they now have to turn sideways.
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent just makes you have more on their field. Same for captive

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Post by DirkGently » 8 months ago

Ok, so I've got a preliminary list for a few of the categories so far, and could maybe use some help whittling down. The two groups I'm focusing on now are "cards which contribute to draining enemy life" and "cards which give the opponents creatures so they're forced to attack with them".

cards which contribute to draining enemy life - these are cards with the goal of ensuring that players kill each other in a timely manner before someone has a chance to do some dumb stuff that saves them, and to help me kill whoever is still alive at the end.

God-tier picks: High picks: Medium picks:
cards which give the opponents creatures so they're forced to attack with them - these synergies with a lot of the above cards, but especially with Kardur, to accomplish the same purpose. Without creatures slugging our opponents we're probably pretty DOA since they could have time to regroup and deal with the board state, which is not allowed! Thou shalt smash!

God-tier pick:
tombstone stairwell

High Picks: Medium Picks: Hopefully that'll keep us focused by (1) letting everyone know which cards I'm aware of (and which I might not be), and (2) giving people an idea of what our best-in-class cards look like, for point of reference to other cards.

@Feyd_Ruin - yep, I mentioned that in one of my posts. Good catch on infernal tribute, unfortunately I don't own one though. Tbh I think my second favorite sac out after claws is probably Final Flare - it's a little expensive, but it doesn't require any setup or tell, and it can't get blown up in response to casting vapors. That said, I think the assumption that we'll need a sac outlet at all is overblown.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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EonAon
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Post by EonAon » 8 months ago

Akroan Horse mentions YOUR upkeep and given you wont always be in lock but it will not produce a token for your opponents if on the field after lock since you get no turns to cycle steps through. I would drop it one tier because of that.

My other suggestion is I used to play a Kaervek/Mogis group hate deck that had many of these cards and you have to be careful to not be too durdly with excessive amounts of cards like underworld dreams and Spiteful Visions . Yes this combo resolves around interacting by not interacting, but sometimes you will have to stand and deliver. That and depending on how much black permanents you slide to you may want Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx depending on how the mana sybols flow out in final versions

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 8 months ago

EDIT: thing I'm thinking right now - I suspect it'll be difficult to go for the lock immediately, since it requires 8 mana (9 with gix) plus some other stuff on board. Kardur himself does a great job of essentially fog+ing for a round, but I also don't really want Kardur to get played and removed, for tax reasons. So I think one potential way to make it work is through utility lands like Witch's Cottage and Volrath's Stronghold, so that we can happily play him, let him die, maybe even replay him with tax once or twice, but then when we go for the lock we use a land to reset his tax. Ofc Command Beacon also does a great job in this regard. Probably not that artifact, since I don't think I want to dedicate any "real" slots.

Main tricky bit is avoiding situations where we can just lock via repeat casting without needing to skip turns...but then, any repeat casting plan is vulnerable to counterspells, removal, etc. With the vapors combo, it's basically unbreakable universal-goad until it's 1v1. I think the only ways for you to get attacked pre-1v1 is if the other players have Ghostly Prison or whatever, to escape the "attack opponents if able" clause.
EonAon wrote:
8 months ago
Akroan Horse mentions YOUR upkeep and given you wont always be in lock but it will not produce a token for your opponents if on the field after lock since you get no turns to cycle steps through. I would drop it one tier because of that.

My other suggestion is I used to play a Kaervek/Mogis group hate deck that had many of these cards and you have to be careful to not be too durdly with excessive amounts of cards like underworld dreams and Spiteful Visions . Yes this combo resolves around interacting by not interacting, but sometimes you will have to stand and deliver. That and depending on how much black permanents you slide to you may want Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx depending on how the mana sybols flow out in final versions
Yes, but the other part of Akroan horse mentions that you're giving it to an opponent, who will presumably continue to have an upkeep. :shhh:

Not going to want Gary or any similar things since I can't really play them at the point when I need to, i.e. after Kardur "lock" has brought their life totals low. The objective is to use kardur lock and other tools to create a situation where my opponents kill themselves - if that's not a viable option for whatever reason, then I'm happy to take the L and try again next game. Just playing ordinary group slug isn't what I'm aiming to do. If that becomes my best way to win then I'd rather retool the deck to improve the kardur lock than try to make the normal slug plan more viable.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 8 months ago

Alright I've got a preliminary decklist up. I can't actually play it until probably Wednesday though, so I'm open to tweaking it before then.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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EonAon
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Post by EonAon » 8 months ago

I've always been a bit leery of ankh and zu-zu. Their great at what they do, but it feels that unless you get them really early, mid to late game they feel lackluster.

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EonAon
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Post by EonAon » 8 months ago


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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 7 months ago

Ran it a couple times tonight. People generally thought it was funny, but a win eluded me. I did go full turn-skip (claws unnecessary, obviously...although one other person did skip his turns since he was going to die to upkeep triggers lol) but lost to a nekusar player because, obviously, nekusar kinda ignores the whole "attacking" thing when dealing damage and easily wheeled me to death.

I still plan to try it again as the decks I was playing against were pretty...eugh. Kykar storm BS, Korvold sac, the aforementioned nekusar, nigh-creatureless pw-partners control...just a bunch of miserable decks that aren't really engaging in combat, rendering Kardur mostly irrelevant. I still got close to a W, but it was via bouncing him with that land, which felt a bit like cheating as far as the deck's goal.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 7 months ago

Hope of Ghirapur is the same as Kardur, Doomscourge in that it is a permanent effect if you don't have another turn.
I actually think something like Blade of Selves on Hope of Ghirapur and lock opponents out of non-creature spells before you go into Lethal Vapors would be perfect.

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