Shigeki turbofog MGC (mono-green control) (it's real)

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

I kinda liked Shigeki, Jukai Visionary when I first looked at him. A neat repeatable ramp ability that looks nice but not overly strong. Bounces to hand to use him as a value-piece in the late game. Neat.

Then I looked harder and I realized that WotC done goofed right up.

So far, basically every recursion spell that can return multiple cards of any type (most importantly, instants and sorceries) self-exiles. Presumably this is to prevent stack-based combos where you cycle extra turns or whatever, along with other recursion spells to keep doing the same thing over and over.

Shigeki does not do that.

Shigeki can get back basically anything, at instant-speed, in potentially large quantities, without self-exiling. Which means you can easily recur another recursion spell with him, then use that recursion spell to recur him, and thusly recur other cards as often as you have the mana to do so. Your entire deck is buyback-able. On top of that, Shigeki's ability isn't even a spell, so most counterspells are useless against the engine, especially when you have redundant recursion spells to get him back.

If this was in blue it'd be straight busted. You could win with ramp and time magic easily while protecting yourself with endless counterspells. Fortunately for those of us who enjoy fun instead of misery, he's in mono-green.

This poses some interesting challenges. Mono-green is possibly the most creature-focused color identity in the format, and recurring creatures is fairly unexciting as they don't tend to expend their value and go to the graveyard to be recurred as readily as instants and sorceries. Almost all the top green commanders focus on creatures. Building a deck with shigeki is going to require thinking a little outside the mono-green box.

The main difficulty is that green isn't commonly used as a control color, due to its lack of control spells. Buff spells, ramp spells, those are green's best instants and sorceries. Artifact and enchantment removal, sure, but that can only get you so far. So how do you overcome the weakness to creatures without relying on creatures yourself?

Turbofog, my boy. Turbofog.

Let them craterhoof us, let them make infinite tokens with kiki-jiki, let them swarm us with goblins or vampires or elves. We will smile, play a junk common, and render all their efforts irrelevant.

And then eventually we'll blow it all up with o-stone or whatever.

So that's the heart of the deck - ramp with Shigeki while using control tools to stay alive via removal and fog, and when you start to run low on gas, use Shigeki to recur all your answers, and another recursion spell to recur shigeki.

How do you win? There's a couple ways. The first, most reliable way, is to use Early Harvest to generate infinite mana, which shegeki converts into infinite recursion, which enables you to blow up all their lands with Rootgrapple or whatever. Helix Pinnacle is in there for funsies. Planeswalker ults are also an option - Shigeki himself can't recur them, but other recursion can if he dumps them into the gy, and fogs obviously help protect them until they get into range. Lair of the hydra can get very large and 1-shot or 2-shot people. Arachnogensis might get there, especially if your opponent is a moron. You can even use it when attacking to protect them. Finally, if all else fails, you can just slowly grind them out of resources, the same way you do with early harvest except not infinite. You just get a bunch of mana and keep recurring beast within a hundred times until all their permanents are 3/3 beasts which you can fog or blow up with o-stone.

I do anticipate some weaknesses. We don't have ways to solve every combo as our stack interaction is pretty minimal. Things like a high-X Torment of Hailfire. for example, is gonna be a problem. But, y'know, it's hard to get to a high-X when your coffers keeps getting blown up, along with your gauntlet of power and doubling cube. So we'll see. It's a fun little puzzle, and definitely a unique new way to play mono-green. I don't think any commander has enabled a deck remotely like this, at least not in this CI, so I'm really excited to try it out.

Okay, the list.
Decklist
Approximate Total Cost:

Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

Dragonlover
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Post by Dragonlover » 2 years ago

I assume that you're not running many creatures (I counted 2) due to the bit you mentioned about it being hard to get them into the GY to recur? If that's the plan, I feel like Genesis is a bit underwhelming.

I feel like you might want both versions of Boseiju. The new one is obviously nuts, but having the option to make some of your fogs uncounterable is not to be sneezed at.

I'm never sure from your posts how fast your meta is, but if it's slow enough, Praetor's Counsel might be worth a look? Does me wonders in Molimo, but I can get away with it.

Oh yeah, you've spelt a card wrong, its Commencement of Festivities not Commence the Festivities.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Dragonlover wrote:
2 years ago
I assume that you're not running many creatures (I counted 2) due to the bit you mentioned about it being hard to get them into the GY to recur? If that's the plan, I feel like Genesis is a bit underwhelming.

I feel like you might want both versions of Boseiju. The new one is obviously nuts, but having the option to make some of your fogs uncounterable is not to be sneezed at.

I'm never sure from your posts how fast your meta is, but if it's slow enough, Praetor's Counsel might be worth a look? Does me wonders in Molimo, but I can get away with it.

Oh yeah, you've spelt a card wrong, its Commencement of Festivities not Commence the Festivities.

Dragonlover
The issue with creatures isn't simply getting them into the gy, it's getting value from them and THEN getting them into the gy. For example, Acidic Slime is popular despite being a more expensive Creeping Mold because of the 2/2 deathtouch body, but here that's an annoyance that makes it harder to use repeatedly.

Genesis is the most efficient recurer since it doesn't require a card. It definitely has more hoops to jump through to make work, but ideally it gets mulled by shigeki, and if you draw it you can eventually recur enough cards to hit max hand size. We'll see how it performs, obviously there are plenty of other options if it's clunky.

Paying 2 life each time seems rough. I can just cast another fog I think. If they have a counterspell they're gonna counter something eventually, can't really avoid that with 1 boseiju.

Other boseiju is probably good.

Praetors self-exiles so meh
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Sefir
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Post by Sefir » 2 years ago

The strategy reminds me a lot of my Search for Blex Dredge deck, so I will give you my 5 cents of reccommendations.
I see that you want to avoid self exiling recursion spells (like Once and Future f.e)., but Holistic Wisdom is a nice card to have. In case that something happens to your Early Harvest, Rude Awakening can also help you to combo off. Finally, since the deck is all about recursion, discard is not a steep cost. Play. Spellshapers. I consider Silverglade Pathfinder and Llanowar Mentor vastly underplayed cards and Dawnstrider does exactly what you want her to do.

EDIT: Veil of Summer is your friend.
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Soul of Windgrace Loam Balance
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
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Post by Toshi » 2 years ago

I don't know your usual match ups, but i would totally run Seedtime in this build!

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Post by Dragonlover » 2 years ago

I guess I just fundamentally don't understand why you're running a recursion spell that only has three possible targets, one of which is itself, but won't run something that for 8 mana will give you back your entire graveyard when your commander takes 9 mana to give you back four cards.

Sweet deck though, I appreciate anything with that many fogs in it.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Sefir wrote:
2 years ago
The strategy reminds me a lot of my Search for Blex Dredge deck, so I will give you my 5 cents of reccommendations.
I see that you want to avoid self exiling recursion spells (like Once and Future f.e)., but Holistic Wisdom is a nice card to have. In case that something happens to your Early Harvest, Rude Awakening can also help you to combo off. Finally, since the deck is all about recursion, discard is not a steep cost. Play. Spellshapers. I consider Silverglade Pathfinder and Llanowar Mentor vastly underplayed cards and Dawnstrider does exactly what you want her to do.

EDIT: Veil of Summer is your friend.
Holistic wisdom is a good card but it can't really recur my commander, which is the main thing I want recurred via cards other than him. For 2 mana to recur something, that's just the rate I get from my commander whenever I use him and I don't have to exile cards when I do that.

Rude awakening is a good point. I don't like it quite as much because I love going off in response, but I could definitely see it making the cut depending how I find the deck playing out. Obviously they're both usually fairly dead until I'm trying to win so there's a limited number of slots for that sort of thing. But it's almost certainly better than helix pinnacle.

I kinda don't want to run nonland permanents unless they're really, really good since repeatedly blowing up the world is an important part of the deck. I don't think those cards are good enough. It's not like discard is free, I'm paying 2 per card I recur. Increase the cost by 2 on the spellshapers (and remove the discard) and they look pretty bleh.

I did kinda forget veil of summer. I don't think I have one actually. I'm not a huge fan, though. We don't really have permanents that are likely to get blown up so it's basically only useful versus counterspells. Anyway I also just dislike color hate on principle.
Toshi wrote:
2 years ago
I don't know your usual match ups, but i would totally run Seedtime in this build!
eh idk i just really don't like color hate cards. Partly it's an aesthetic preference and partly it's that I don't like my deck to function vastly differently depending which colors my opponents are. And we probably won't be casting many spells on our turn anyway so counterspells aren't super likely.

Plus I mean, is anyone ever going to fall for it twice after you recur it (or have the ability to recur it)? Seems like a 1-time trick, not ideal for a deck that's all about recursion.

Also I don't have one and don't wanna buy one lol.
Dragonlover wrote:
2 years ago
I guess I just fundamentally don't understand why you're running a recursion spell that only has three possible targets, one of which is itself, but won't run something that for 8 mana will give you back your entire graveyard when your commander takes 9 mana to give you back four cards.

Sweet deck though, I appreciate anything with that many fogs in it.

Dragonlover
ten mana to get back 4 cards actually. GGXX.

Anyway, there are two main reasons.

The first is that it's really bad in starting hand. Totally dead for a pretty long time. Plus it's a sorcery so much harder to hold up than Shigeki. Other recursion spells can generally be fired off to get something early in a pinch.

The second is that I don't think it really helps us do what we want to do. The deck wants to set up a semi-lock by neutralizing combat with fogs, destroying problematic permanents, and being able to do this in an ongoing fashion through recursion. It all comes down to throughput, basically. Having one big draw where I get a bunch of stuff is great but it's not really increasing my throughput. Once I use up those cards, I'll still be at whatever throughput I had before. There's probably a window where I can achieve stability a little earlier by using that big burst of cards to hold me over until I can get the constant throughput to keep me going, but beyond that point I simply shouldn't need it anymore, so I think it's got a fairly narrow window of being castable but not unnecessary.

Basically, the goal is to create an engine, and it can't be part of an engine. So I don't like it.

I do like the spellbook emblem, though. Wish there was a way to get that without the big clunky 8cmc sorcery. I guess there's always reliquary tower.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Haman
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Post by Haman » 1 year ago

I adopted a controllish version , using wolf and wurm tokens as finisher.
Here are some observation.
10 recur spell is correct.
Can go down 10 fogs.
I added some 3 mana ramp spells with 2 mana mulch effects.
Using shigeki to ramp has become impossible and getting to 9 mana which is the critical turn is harder
I added some lifegain cards as well

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Post by Legend » 1 year ago

Haman wrote:
1 year ago
Using shigeki to ramp has become impossible
This has me curious, how has it become impossible?
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Legend wrote:
1 year ago
Haman wrote:
1 year ago
Using shigeki to ramp has become impossible
This has me curious, how has it become impossible?
Presumably because their opponents have picked up on how critical Shigeki is to the deck and as a result has become a removal magnet.

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