Your thoughts on decklist and resource discussion?

[RowanKeltizar]

So, I've been on these forums for quite some time, and before that MTGsalvation. I have a lot of decks posted. Many of those are linked in my sig. More often than not, when I bump my threads with new thoughts or changes, I feel like I'm just talking to a blank wall despite my threads having quite a few views, and I notice a similar pattern on other primers and decklists that are regular updated.

I notice that this section of the commander forums is actually very active with a lot of regularly posting members... Most of whom seem very knowledgeable and experienced with the format. Differing opinions and philosophies for sure... I think you know where I am going with this.

I crave meaningful discussion because I know there are hidden gems I'm missing or maybe certain cards in my lists aren't ideal... synergies I'm unaware of. I am very open to informed feedback. Even if that feedback doesn't result in any changes, I would still like to hear what people think of the deck. Even something like "I hate your commander for X reason" would be better than nothing honestly.

I know my choices of commanders may not interest some people and people might get tired of always seeing the same edh staple cards. In some cases, these commanders are already solved and not much further discussion is possible. However, new cards are constantly being released into the wild and I have a hard time keeping up with everything.

I'm on a new budget deckbuilding kick where there is probably a lot more room for discussion since I have to omit the high $ staples in favor of other things. I'm excited for it, because it's unknown territory for me and I could also use some help building them. Not feeling like I have to drop $500 + on a new commander deck is a good feeling.

If I felt like people cared about my decklists I would likely put more energy into write-ups and even start a new Primer for some of my lists. It seemed like in the old days, Primers got a lot more discussion and interest especially from people actually looking to build the deck for themselves. As it stands, I just feel like it's not worth the effort.

So my question to you is two-fold. What keeps you from posting on other people's decklists threads? And what if anything would encourage you to do so?

Also, on a side tangent: How do you feel about deckbuilding resource write ups? An example would be my anti-control list. If there's more interest I would keep it updated and flesh out the different philosophies based on discussion in the thread and see if I can get it linked to in the official resource sticky thread. I'm talking about this one: viewtopic.php?t=13

I'll try to answer my own questions first...

Maybe I don't have first hand experience with that commander, or I just don't feel like I have anything to contribute to the discussion. In some cases I feel like the owner of that decklist won't be open to hearing any of my critiques and I'll have wasted my time. Sometimes I want to avoid arguments or unnecessary conflict with the deck owners.

As to what would encourage me to comment,.. maybe some time of agreed upon format for discourse. A conversation starter if you will. As far as time invested, if I knew I would get a comment on one of my decklists in return, I would feel more inclined to put together a thorough critique. Maybe even if you could frame a "review" for a given deck. How likely are you to play the deck, why or why not? What cards would you swap out? I don't know.

Resource write-ups seems like a good avenue for meaningful discussion since they apply to a wide range of decks. I'm curious why are there no new resources added to the sticky thread? If I'm looking for a list of graveyard hate cards I have to go outside the forums, and those lists are usually out of date and incomplete. All I'm saying is it would be nice to see more regularly maintained resource threads.


Maybe others have some good ideas or thoughts about this?

[duducrash]

What keeps you from posting on other people's decklists threads? And what if anything would encourage you to do so?

I don't think I'm competent enough to contribute to other peoples lists. Sometimes I'll point out cards I think work well in the deck, but more often then not the OP has already considered it or it isnt good enough. I think Nexus has a curated list of experienced deckbuilders and its harder to "help" folkks because they are already much better at this than I am.

I saw your Rod of Absorption post earlier where you said posts in deck threads don't generate proper discussion and this made me curious to check my own list. The deck I post the most is Veyran, Voice of Duality and the last 8 posts are my own ( viewtopic.php?t=36316&start=25 ). You are onto something I guess. I think a higher number of visitors on the forum would create more discussion since more folks like different lists and all that. Decks that multiple people here play, like Kykar, Wind's Fury and Phelddagrif usually get active threads

[kirkusjones]

I think you need to ask for specific feedback. I've found this to be successful when handing someone a piece of writing. If I just say "tell me if it sucks", I just get back "it was good!". With the most recent story I finished, I was really concerned about a relationship dynamic between two characters and asked for opinions and feedback on that. I got way more in-depth and helpful feedback that helped me significantly improve the second draft.

I think for the purposes of getting responses to your list, single card discussions/"hey, does x card work in my list?" And things like "does my curve or ramp package look diversified enough?" might yield the discussion you're seeking.

[RedCheese]

I guess some commanders/decks are different between individuals. The one i post most at is Varinna thread and theres a couple of us quite active in it every so often.

[void_nothing]

It's the agonizing paradox at the heart of the format. EDH is, and should be, the most varied way to play Magic ever. Although some top-tier commanders can have their decks - in a competitive context - optimized to a degree approaching solving, the format will never even temporarily be solved, and there isn't even a real Commander metagame, only that which exists in your playgroup. This should make all decks ripe for possible changes and card suggestions.

However, most decks in the decklist forum are commanders that I don't or have never played just through the law of large numbers, and even if it's a legend that I have helmed a deck with, what works for me may not work for you. Since the primary type of advice you can give and discussion you can have on a decklist is about card choice, there's almost not even a platform for me to be able to do that, or context to even get started.

[pokken]

I think the knowledge required to interact with a deck is so high that I only really do so in a couple threads at a time and usually say something dumb in those.

Ive had enough combative experiences about things that I mostly try to lurk back unless I have some serious knowledge or a real complex question I can't work out myself.

I do think we could use a lot more general theory discussions like how to play extra land drops or hatebears or whatever. It's hard to stratify though. I have a few of these I've written that mostly fade out (land drop dec, hitting lands theory, and target saturation).


One thing I think would help would be a sticky that had a list of resource threads. Ideally if it auto sorted the most recently updated to the top that'd be cool

Maybe this one could get a facelift
viewtopic.php?t=13

[PrimevalCommander]

For me, looking over someone else's decklist, digesting the intended design of the OP, and working out meaningful feedback that they may not even want, is a lot of effort. Though I'm 70% lurker on all the forums I frequent. Perhaps I'll browse the decklist section a bit more. With deckbuilding being such a personal thing I have not really tried looking through the threads for someone who's building philosophy is close enough to mine to warrant posting. Also I'm lazy .

I went looking for a God Eternal Oketra decklist in the database, but there wasn't a sponsored link for one, so I gave up and went to EDHrec

[Crazy Monkey]

There are several overlapping factors in my case. I generally don't post in other people's deck threads (even threads that I read and keep up to date in) because I want to be sure that my input will actually be valuable. Generating views/clicks/replies for their own sake isn't something that I want to do (It's why forums + discord are my only social media, but that's a different topic). Instead I tend to only respond if specifically prompted or it is my opinion that a concept has not been brought up. The other reason overlapping with this is that, in practice, I am "not great" at evaluating and deck unless it's in my hands. I do a lot of pile sorting/counting/charting so unless the list is extremely organized and categorized, I miss too much when just reading the list. This means that I won't really be able to formulate a reasonable critique or review unless I have played with or against a similar deck. Taken together, I basically only respond in deck threads that are extremely organized and I have experience with, and even then only if I have novel feedback. This is limited by my deckbuilding preferences and the tendenciesof my metagame.

Deck threads are a favorite read of mine, because they get me thinking about the game differently from that decks perspective. I definitely lurk a lot of active and inactive deck threads when the mood hits me.

Regarding deckbuilding resources; they're also good reads, but I tend to gloss over them when they get too broad. I tend to build with a lot of restrictions, so the more general threads aren't really applicable to more than, say 25% of my decks. I prefer to engage in more narrow discussion/brainstorming on the scale of SCD, MCD, or something similar to the referenced "dealing with counterspells without blue".

I guess the narrow brainstorming, but nonspecific topics are where I am most likely to engage. I have even built multiple decks that came to mind as I was thinking about questions in such forum threads.

[BaronCappuccino]

Oftentimes, I don't feel like I have anything worthwhile to contribute. If a deck is missing a staple, I assume it's on purpose, so I won't go in and ask: "Have you looked into Sol Ring?" If a deck is something like what I'm making or like something I've made in the past, I might make a post detailing how I do/did things different. On the same note, I don't expect much activity on decks that I post for the same reason. I know about Sol Ring, and my deck building mistakes are typically deliberate (the exception being my most recent D&D deck, where I completely misread my commander, go figure, and was fortunately set straight and swapped it). I'm often not sure what I'm looking for when I post them, because it's rare that I incorporate advice that only serves to make the deck perform better - I'm quite open to suggestions for thematic upgrades. I'm too intentionally subpar to benefit from advice and too regularly odd-minded to helpfully offer it.

[materpillar]

Properly analyzing a decklist takes a lot of mental energy. Analyzing a primer decklist for new thoughts that the writer hasn't seen after they put hours and hours into crafting it is a fairly monumental task. I just don't have the time to get myself to a place I feel qualified to comment in most primer threads with any deeper analysis than "neat".

[motleyslayer]

I have a hard time sharing decklists for commander as a format now. Mostly because I feel like that since commander can be played in so many different ways/power levels, it's hard to match the power level you want. another part I like about commander is building decks my own way, rather than just building the most tuned deck. This is probably because I only building commander decks more than I actually enjoy playing the format

[Ruiner]

I think people are probably more inclined to post commentary on decklist posts featuring commanders that they are interested in playing, already play themselves, or commonly face. They've got a bit of real world experience or at least theoretical musings they've already been pondering to contribute to an ongoing discussion.

I personally have a number of decklists on here, all linked in my signature, that have not really "taken off" that I am the main poster on but I figure they may be useful for someone someday looking for a new deck inspiration. When I see an appropriate moment to "plug" one of my decklists in someone else's topic, I'll usually say something like "You're making an elf deck and I've got a deck kind of like this, look at my Abomination of Llanowar list in my signature if you are interested", or something similar. I don't generally expect active discussion on those but just maintain them for the fun of it and as a resource for others.

I do notice, outside of posts about really popular commanders, a number of the topics that at least get a burst of activity in the Decklists section are those that are less specific like the "I want to make a reanimator deck with these colors, what should I do" style topics as they kind of invite discussion.

Maybe there is a good way to flag a post within the title like "Looking for help" if you actively need feedback.

[motleyslayer]

I feel that's the only time I really look at lists anymore tbh, when I wanna build a commander, I'll use existing lists as a place to start

[RowanKeltizar]

All of this makes a lot of sense, so thanks. It's good to know a decklist is still appreciated and viewed even if it never sees any comments.

Where I would appreciate more discussion is my budget decklists since I know for sure, there are obscure but good cards I'm missing out on.

[void_nothing]

Where I would appreciate more discussion is my budget decklists since I know for sure, there are obscure but good cards I'm missing out on.

It would be something like a budget decklist wherein I'd feel more comfortable making recommendations.

[pokken]

Might be nice to have a monthly deck list analysis thread stickied in the main forum maybe? Like this deck will be up for a month and featured for analysis.

Might be reasonable to have feedback requests in the main forum for a deck list thread too if it didn't get abusively spammy. Like go ahead and make a thread with a deck list and a link to your thread and ask for specific feedback?

I'm happy to look at specific lists myself. Budget or jank brews really utilize my knowledge of nonsense cards so I like those

[DirkGently]

Laziness mostly.

As mentioned, the vast majority of decks are for commanders I don't really have any interest or experience in. And although I have built a lot of commanders, even for commanders I've built I often had a different vision for the deck than the person building it. Making suggestions can feel like I'm pushing them towards just building my version of the deck. If they really want to see how I built it, they can just look at my version and decide for themselves how much they want to crib.

On the flip side, while I do appreciate people taking an interest in my lists, a lot of the time the suggestions people make are cards I already considered and dismissed, since I do tend to be quite thorough in my process. So it often feels more like I'm defending my deckbuilding decisions more than getting suggestions, tbh. And even when I do get good suggestions that I didn't consider, considering I play most decks only a couple times it's usually not worth the effort to find the suggested card, especially if I don't already own it. My primary interest in posting my lists is for my own record keeping and to share my ideas with anyone else who might be interested. With exceptions, of course - lists like Phelddagrif have been refined for a long time, and sometimes I do seek out feedback i.e. when trying to build my recent trash decks.

[toctheyounger]

For myself, I try not to post on lists of commanders I haven't brewed or played before. It's one of those things where I have an encyclopedic knowledge of cards, but I don't know what they do in every context. Coupled with the fact that my brewing predilection these days swing towards more control and stax, its not everyone's cup of tea, despite my thoughts that more people should run those pieces.

So I guess I just don't want to look like a chump with suggestions you've already considered and discarded, or just suggest things that are way off base.

I do also have a huge issue with spare time. Thats parenthood and its not going to get any better.

I know on salvation we ran a decklist of the week in the general forum, which was a really good way to drum up meaningful discussion. We tried it here early days, but I think it mightve been TOO early. What would we think about picking it back up?

[RxPhantom]

Sometimes I feel a little intimidated by some of these threads, and feel like some dumdum interloper bringing my dumb dumbness to their cool deck/thread. Maybe I'll stick my neck out sometime soon. I also need to get off my ass and post my lists. I've been durdling on a Goreclaw primer for over a year, too.

[void_nothing]

It's one of those things where I have an encyclopedic knowledge of cards, but I don't know what they do in every context.

Big mood

[cheonice]

Sometimes I feel a little intimidated by some of these threads, and feel like some dumdum interloper bringing my dumb dumbness to their cool deck/thread. Maybe I'll stick my neck out sometime soon. I also need to get off my ass and post my lists. I've been durdling on a Goreclaw primer for over a year, too.

Samsies. I'm not a native speaker, either, so I really need to be sure I can contribute something to get out of my comfort zone as a lurker. It tends to be easier, if I have some experience with the commander or if I'm planning to build something similar.

I know on salvation we ran a decklist of the week in the general forum, which was a really good way to drum up meaningful discussion. We tried it here early days, but I think it mightve been TOO early. What would we think about picking it back up?

That would be great! It would make it a bit easier to focus on some suggestions regarding a specific thread that are floating in my mind. If my thread would be featured, it would hopefully motivate me to answer faster than I used to.

[toctheyounger]

It's one of those things where I have an encyclopedic knowledge of cards, but I don't know what they do in every context.

Big mood

Yeah that mightve sounded a bit arrogant. Its how I learn though. I'm also very good with number plates, a skill that really only comes in handy if you need it for an insurance claim.

Sometimes I feel a little intimidated by some of these threads, and feel like some dumdum interloper bringing my dumb dumbness to their cool deck/thread. Maybe I'll stick my neck out sometime soon. I also need to get off my ass and post my lists. I've been durdling on a Goreclaw primer for over a year, too.

Samsies. I'm not a native speaker, either, so I really need to be sure I can contribute something to get out of my comfort zone as a lurker. It tends to be easier, if I have some experience with the commander or if I'm planning to build something similar.

I know on salvation we ran a decklist of the week in the general forum, which was a really good way to drum up meaningful discussion. We tried it here early days, but I think it mightve been TOO early. What would we think about picking it back up?

That would be great! It would make it a bit easier to focus on some suggestions regarding a specific thread that are floating in my mind. If my thread would be featured, it would hopefully motivate me to answer faster than I used to.

I think so too. @3drinks got it running the first time around, if they were keen again we could just revive the thread that didn't get off the ground. If not we could just ask in the main forum if anyone is keen to look after such a thread.

From memory the way it works is you submit links and every allotted time period a list is randomly shared at which point folks chime in as able. Deep dive discussion is recommended to be shared on the actual thread page where possible though, otherwise it defeats the purpose altogether.

[RowanKeltizar]

Might be nice to have a monthly deck list analysis thread stickied in the main forum maybe? Like this deck will be up for a month and featured for analysis.

I know on salvation we ran a decklist of the week in the general forum, which was a really good way to drum up meaningful discussion. We tried it here early days, but I think it mightve been TOO early. What would we think about picking it back up?

I like this idea! I think this exactly what I would like to see happen That way, the owner of the deck can choose to solicit feedback or not, and what kind of feedback they are looking for. Everyone gets their time in the sun and gets to return the favor.

There should probably be some kind of short questionaire to answer along with your submission to illicit the type of useful feedback the deck owner is looking for.

For example: What's your budget restrictions? Are you against playing certain types of cards? What's the overall theme or purpose for the deck? etc...

[3drinks]

I think so too. @3drinks got it running the first time around, if they were keen again we could just revive the thread that didn't get off the ground. If not we could just ask in the main forum if anyone is keen to look after such a thread.

From memory the way it works is you submit links and every allotted time period a list is randomly shared at which point folks chime in as able. Deep dive discussion is recommended to be shared on the actual thread page where possible though, otherwise it defeats the purpose altogether.

Oh hey, I remember this. I think the problem with this when it tuckered out was the same four people providing the same advice and a lot of people not engaging unless they were getting the attention. Or users getting defensive over the same advice being dished out to cut their pet cards. In short, people just stopped participating because it got circular.

[RowanKeltizar]

Oh hey, I remember this. I think the problem with this when it tuckered out was the same four people providing the same advice and a lot of people not engaging unless they were getting the attention. Or users getting defensive over the same advice being dished out to cut their pet cards. In short, people just stopped participating because it got circular.

Hmm, new forum badges? jk... maybe in order to get your own list featured, you have to provide real feedback first? Moderators could start it off with their own lists. XD And if you do provide feedback you have to say something new about the list? Just some general ground rules?

Just trying to think of ways to avoid what you described above but maybe we have enough people now that this won't be the case? I think the questionaire is important to help prevent unwanted/unhelpful feedback.

For example, if I featured my Dinos deck, I would say that I am choosing not to run mana dorks of any kind. Only dinos and land ramp. Land ramp helps thin the deck and has synergy with cards like Valakut Exploration. It's a self imposed deck restriction. Dorks also die to Aether Flash XD