Karador, Ghost Chieftan

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 3 years ago

This is one of my two oldest decks. Back before commander 2010 I had two commander decks. Intet, the Dreamer and Teneb, the Harvester which were one of an extremely few wedge commanders in their colors at the time, perhaps the only ones. Soon as commander 2010 came out Riku of Two Reflections and Karador, Ghost Chieftain took the helms immediately. Riku has now been dethroned by Kalamax, the Stormsire, but Karador remains my longest running commander and has gone through many a change. Posting this decklist for discussion or questions.

Going to add a Favorite Cards section to all my decklists just for fun. 5 or less cards and I enjoy drawing the most.
Nethroi, Apex of Death - I love puzzling together what I want to get from the GY with 10 total power. It always is a great play, and the little descisions on what to get back adds additional enjoyment over plain ole Eerie Ultimatum.
Greater Good turns this deck up to 11 by turbo drawing + filling graveyard
Life from the Loam, ensures I hit land drops all game and keeps me flush with sac lands when needed
Diamond Valley gains so much life that opponents don't notice I gained 15+ life in 3 turns and now at 35 wondering why they can't attack me to death.
Luminous Broodmoth is a fun little engine card with enough limitations to be not kill-on-sight. Just churns my little dudes, but that is alright with me for 4 mana. Doom Whisperer fell off since its a little more linear and a little less interesting.

Post by WizardMN 3 years ago

I like the list overall. I think there are a few cards I wouldn't be sold on but I can't see many that are just absolutely out of place. It does look like you might be going for more of a controlling game plan with things like Yosei and Mindslicer. I used to have the latter but cut it due to a few reasons. But it does good work.

How good has Martyr's Cause been for you? I can see it being good for a sac outlet at least, but does the damage prevention do a lot? I am wondering if this would just be better as Viscera Seer. Another card that I think ends up being better is Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim over Disciple of Griselbrand. It is almost strictly better and being able to get the white mana over just generic shouldn't be too difficult. I have never liked spending mana to sac my stuff though so I might even look to Yahenni, Undying Partisan as an alternative to them.

We talked about it in my thread, but Yawgmoth, Thran Physician would do good here. And it would work really well with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed if you wanted to add him (and you like that playstyle). Mikaeus also works well with Luminous Broodmoth and Woodfall Primus to loop things.

Oreskos Explorer is probably the one card I would pick out as being the "worst". It is inconsistent enough and isn't actual ramp that I never liked it. I had tried it a long time ago and it never did what I wanted. I think a better alternative is likely just Tithe. It is harder to recur but you always get at least one land, you can time it a bit better to get the second land (and you only need one person with more lands than you to get 2), and it works better in the late game than Explorer as the latter doesn't do much if you get it later and have already ramped a bunch.

Also, you misspelled Yavimaya Granger, Maelstrom Pulse, Altar of Dementia, and Scattered Groves

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote: ↑
3 years ago
I like the list overall. I think there are a few cards I wouldn't be sold on but I can't see many that are just absolutely out of place. It does look like you might be going for more of a controlling game plan with things like Yosei and Mindslicer. I used to have the latter but cut it due to a few reasons. But it does good work.

How good has Martyr's Cause been for you? I can see it being good for a sac outlet at least, but does the damage prevention do a lot? I am wondering if this would just be better as Viscera Seer. Another card that I think ends up being better is Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim over Disciple of Griselbrand. It is almost strictly better and being able to get the white mana over just generic shouldn't be too difficult. I have never liked spending mana to sac my stuff though so I might even look to Yahenni, Undying Partisan as an alternative to them.

We talked about it in my thread, but Yawgmoth, Thran Physician would do good here. And it would work really well with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed if you wanted to add him (and you like that playstyle). Mikaeus also works well with Luminous Broodmoth and Woodfall Primus to loop things.

Oreskos Explorer is probably the one card I would pick out as being the "worst". It is inconsistent enough and isn't actual ramp that I never liked it. I had tried it a long time ago and it never did what I wanted. I think a better alternative is likely just Tithe. It is harder to recur but you always get at least one land, you can time it a bit better to get the second land (and you only need one person with more lands than you to get 2), and it works better in the late game than Explorer as the latter doesn't do much if you get it later and have already ramped a bunch.

tags fixed

The sac outlets are one of the primary ways I curb the combo potential of the deck.

Viscera Seer floats in and out of the deck, but generally having an unrestricted sac outlet on a creature is a big temptation for tutoring to complete an infinite combo. Yahenni, Undying Partisan is in the sideboard now that I picked up a reprint copy.

Martyr's Cause is a cheap Forcefield that doubles as a sac outlet. Once out, attacking me becomes unprofitable, so they just don't do it. So it creates virtual life gain as a Ghostly Prison would. It is another power downgrade from the Mana Altars, which I own, but don't want in this deck. It could be a Yahenni in an instant and the deck would be better for it. Come to think of it, that may happen and I can keep Disciple of Grisslebrand. Thanks!

I just recently noticed Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim is a functionally better Disciple of Grisslebrand, but I'm not too worried about it. I want my sac outlets to be low profile, and the removal ability draws more attention than the lifegain. My sac outlets are always targeted with extreme prejudice, so anything I can do to lower the threat profile is fine by me.

I liked Oreskos Explorer when it was first printed, but there are better cards coming out. Though it has done good for me regularly filling my hand with land drops. The Scholar of New Horizons may be a much better card than this one as it guarantees one land to hand if it lives and potential to actually ramp. I should try it in this place and put Dawntreader Elk in for Yavimaya Granger to see how I like them. Unfortunately neither of these actually "ramp" me on turn 2, but neither to their predecessors, so no loss there. Good cuts there I think.

Next I need some good card draw. I''m not sure Generous Patron will give me what I want. So Fell Stinger will probably retake that spot. Yawgmoth, Thran Physician will be coming in, maybe better in Patron's spot. Guardian Project has caught my attention since I don't to tokens, but do have creatures entering and leaving the graveyard regularly. I have just been cold to single-shot instant and sorcery draw for this deck. I really want that INCREMENTAL VALUE, but sometimes all you really need is a big refill once and a while. Though my creatures don't stay in play long and are not particularly large, so the power-matters draw spells loose a lot of appeal.

yeti1069 · Post by yeti1069 3 years ago

The Great Henge would also work well here for card draw/buffing your incoming dudes. You have a fair number of 4+ power creatures, which makes TGH 5 mana or less, at which point, it's mostly an upgrade to Guardian Project.

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 3 years ago

I would have 2 or 3 Great Henge's if I could afford it

Definitely a good recommendation, thanks!

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 3 years ago

Made some updates to help me draw cards and get some late game value

Yawgmoth, Thran Physician in for Generous Patron. Never cast Patron, but Yawgmoth is obviously better at everything. Just dismantled the deck he was leading so I could use him and the sleeves for something else.

Scholar of New Horizons in for Oreskos Explorer as a way to get actual ramp instead of lands to hand, which I have too much of. Slow, but gives me needed turn 2 plays for ramp, which I have few.

Massacre Girl in for Hallowed Burial. I really like Burial, but Massacre Girl has more synergy with the deck and can still eat indestructibles if not overly large. Puts my stuff in the grave instead of in the library which I prefer. Easier to tutor and recur if I want something other than False Prophet.

Golgari Rot Farm + Selesnya Sanctuary in for 2 lands. Bounce lands coming back in with the addition of Kura, the Boundless Sky Boseiju, Who Endures and Takenuma, Abandoned Mire. This little package makes bounce lands highly valuable later on since I'm also playing Bojuka bog and have Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt on my buy list.

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 3 years ago

Short update, played Karador two times over the Holidays and Massacre Girl did quite well. Had a Birthing Pod in play for a couple turns which really got my deck moving. Massacre Girl is a good tutor target in my Pod chain if I can't get to Prophet or need the ETB instead of the Death trigger for convenience. Having a second recurrable wipe for redundancy is nice to have. Should have made that swap years ago.

Yawgmoth, Thran Physician did alright, drawing me a couple cards before eating removal. It was early game, so I just sac'd some ramp dudes to net cards, but having the sac+draw on a single card is a welcome sight to be sure.

I think I might need a Solitude to come in for Archon of Justice because having too many triggers on death leaves me too reliant on sac outlets. I'm praying for a reprint here sometime to soften the price just a bit before jumping in. Not having flying makes it good with Luminous Broodmoth because annoyingly, 1/3 of my creatures have flying

. Good for chip damage though.

Post by WizardMN 3 years ago

That is good to hear on Massacre Girl. She is one that seems sort of on the edge for me and I believe it was discussed a little more in depth earlier when discussing creature based board wipes.

I think Yawgmoth ends up being one of those cards that can be pretty explosive (in terms of keeping the deck moving) while at the same time having a relatively high floor so he never feels like a dead card. Obviously, his greater power comes from having a larger board state, or at least a number of smaller creatures we don't mind sacrificing, and that isn't something that will always happen. But even using him to draw a couple cards and put something important into the yard for Karador to let you recast can let you turn the corner so to speak.

I end up playing both but I don't think the swap is a bad one. Archon is nice for hitting everything but Solitude lets you go shields down in certain cases. Archon's issue is indeed that it needs to die so it can be a little trickier to get to work if you absolutely need it "right now" so Solitude does shine in that regard. And, of course, the interaction with Broodmoth is a pretty good one.

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 2 years ago

out Morbid Opportunist and Grim Haruspex

in Braids, Arisen Nightmare and Triarch Praetorian

Funny first outing for Braids. Every time I see here played online she is a mega Phyrexian Arena, drawing 2-3 cards on end step and draining opponents constantly. First game outing with her my stubborn opponents keep sacrificing creatures to deny me the draw. Still won the game after getting a small loop on False Prophet to slow down the mid-game, but I was looking for extra cards in the early game. Honestly my opponents saccing creatures is still good for me, but it was funny because it is in there for the draw engine. Secondary function as a slow sac outlet to trigger minor effects here and there. Triggered False Prophet once as well.

Same game Triarch Praetorian did well. Got eaten by Braids early game for minimal value, but came back 2x for 4 cards and sticks around to get sacrificed all over again. Good with Birthing Pod chains as well. Morbid Opportunist and Grim Haruspex require a bit more set up and I don't have enough fodder in the deck. The Praetorian helps with the fodder and can come back off little recursion triggers to draw cards and not self destruct like Fell Stinger and Vulturous Aven, which both seemed to disappoint in the long run.

On the watch list:
Angel of Serenity. Got to cast her and Exile 1/2 the field, but overall I could easily wipe the entire board with Massacre Girl for less mana. Upside of hiding things away for myself rarely comes up, but I'm still riding the hype from when she was released (11 years ago

) and we lost our mind thinking triple removal was worth + the hoops to sacrifice at instant speed

Tooth and Nail: my last copy in a deck, still does enough for me to warrant the slot, but I do want to test Majestic Genesis and see what it can do for 1 less mana.

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 2 years ago

Quick update and a bit of discussion around a few card choices.

OUT Angel of Serenity >> IN Morbid Opportunist

Angel of serenity has been in the deck a LONG time, and has been power crept out now. Also my avg. mana value is high and I need more card draw in the list. So this swap does everything I want. Reduce redundant 7 drops, reduce overall avg. mana value, increase card draw concentration.

Conversation started in another thread brought to my decklist for better reference:
I'm currently torn between Elk and Yavimaya Grainger. Grainger doesn't require mana to activate when coming from the graveyard, and can get a land + sac to other abilities for value. That is why it is still in over Elk. But Elk comes down sooner and splits the cost, but has to self-sac to get the land. Tough choice. That's why I like Scholar of New Horizons, it gets the land + sticks around to be eaten by Braids, Arisen Nightmare or Sidisi, Undead Vizier , or Birthing Pod. Having too many self-sacrificing creatures: Dawntreader Elk , Fell Stinger, Vulturous Aven made it difficult to keep enough fodder around to trigger my other sac outlets. So I'm trying to find things that stick. Triarch Praetorian fits in this category where Fell Stinger is more consistent, but Praetorian sticks round to be more useful.

Too many times I wishing my self-sacrifice creatures wouldn't self-sac so I can net a little more value from other cards. Now with Braids, Arisen Nightmare that becomes even more important. It's making me want to try Hallowed Spiritkeeper again to boost the amount of sac fodder I have around. But in the past if I needed more blockers, I would just tutor up a False Prophet and slow the board down that way.

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 2 years ago

Interesting development, I stumbled upon a little "You're playing this card wrong" short about Lurrus of the Dream-Den + Triarch Praetorian. Casting Praetorian from the graveyard puts it on the stack, so it doesn't trigger the enters from the graveyard draw ability. Only spells or abilities that specifically put a creature directly from graveyard to battlefield would trigger. Casting sees the creature enter from the stack, and Living Death sees it enter from exile. With these two options removed from the synergy options of Praetorian, I think the card looses a lot of attractiveness.

Still works
Sun Titan, Saffi Eriksdotter, Nethroi, Apex of Death, Necromancy, Reveillark, Karmic Guide, Junji, the Midnight Sky and Nim Deathmantle

Does not work
Karador, Ghost Chieftain (biggest loss), Living Death (another big loss), and Luminous Broodmoth (already knew this, but still)

Guess I only loose 2 expected synergies, but arguably besides Sun Titan, Nethroi and Reveillark, I'm not as likely to use the other recursion options on the Praetorian. Generally it was there to get looped with Karador, Ghost Chieftain as a last resort if I got too low on cards.

Opportunity in disguise: I have determined that I absolutely NEED at least 1 non-token creature that can recurr itself to turn on all my other engines that require creatures. That creature has been chosen as Bloodghast, with a runner up in Nether Traitor. Now I only need a foil Bloodghast. Having this with Wight of the Reliquary is obviously good fun, but I can usually hit land drops reliably, and as shown I have many little engines that want a creature in play to sacrifice. With several wanting non-token creatures specifically. I think this could be a big help to the overall engine of the deck, and with the self-mill, Bloodghast is perfect for coming back again and again to trigger Braids, Arisen Nightmare , Yawgmoth, Thran Physician , Morbid Opportunist Birthing Pod, etc. Works well with Fetch lands, Wight, and Blossoming Tortoise to keep recurring multiple times a turn cycle.

Late edit: Also put in Wight of the Reliquary in place of Hermit Druid because druid just felt downright filthy to activate. Even with 10 basics to purposefully curb it's effectiveness it felt like cheating. Even survival of the fittest didn't feel as unfair since I had to spend several to get an engine going.

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 1 year ago

I was looking at this Orcish Bowmasters in my binder and realized the amass ability may just give me the creature token making that I need to keep my creature engines going. I also picked up a Springheart Nantuko which can also make creatures when a land enters. I still think I like Bloodghast over Nantuko, but I have a Bowmasters that needs to have a spot somewhere, so might as well be here.

Changes

CUTS

1 Triarch Praetorian

ADDS

1 Orcish Bowmasters

Adding a little more to this besides just a quick card swap. Karador lost a game, but it was a good game.

Karador vs. Sakashima of a Thousand Faces /Kodama of the East Tree combo(?) vs. Obuun, Mul Daya Ancestor landfall vs. Nicol Bolas, the Ravager // Nicol Bolas, the Arisen BIG Spells.
I start with a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman and turn 2 Disciple of Griselbrand. Obuun drops a fetch land for me to eat so I can get my second black on turn 3 for Braids, Arisen Nightmare and I sac the Disciple to draw 3 cards. I get another Braids trigger next turn and Obuun is beating me and Nicol Bolas down in the early game. Bolas has an incredibly slow start, but I don't have anything useful on the board to pressure his life total. Kodama just does some ramp stuff and casts Kodama on turn 5 and passes. I am drawing a lot of cards, but generally just doing durdle things. I am hitting my land drops but my mid game is a bit weak. No real engine to speak of and I sac deathrite to keep drawing cards of Braids. Braids draws me about 8 cards in 3 turns, so this cards is really doing work. I get a Birthing Pod countered by Bolas and my hand is lands and removal. I do have a Field of the Dead to gum up the board a bit. Not much in the way of action. I do get a Junji, the Midnight Sky out to block Nicol Bolas, who came down around turn 4-5.

Turn 6 Kodama drops Sakashima, copy Kodama, then proceeds to drop another Clone on KodamaShima, Mirror Box, and something else, but nothing of real consequence. Obuun had a board wipe face up from Escape to the Wilds and just slammed it immediately after Kodama's big turn. Kodama now has no field and no cards, so he is out. Bolas has one more set up turn before he goes off, so all I can do is something similar and hope I can combo off before him. Bolas turn 6 was inconsequential. I try to get set up with a Kura, the Boundless Sky + Demonic Tutor into Altar of Dementia, but it's too late now. Bolas goes to turn 7 and cast Breach the Multiverse for a field full of creatures, one removes my Kura and I tutor up some lands. I durdle some more and pass turn looking for an opening for my Living Death. Turn 8 he untapps and cast Rise of the Dark Realms for a huge board, but no immediate way to win. My turn I Austere Command all creatures away, but not enough mana to follow up with Living Death to get my stuff back. That's alright, I'm ready for next round with a Rishadan Port, which will make it VERY hard to hold up the Mana Drain he tutored off Spellseeker. Obuun and Kodama doing their best to stay relevant after 2 wipes in 2 turns, but Bolas untapps and cast Aminatou's Augury and hits Expropriate off it and we all scoop.

Bolas deck is known for big spells, and we had a window to shut him down early, but Obuun was spreading the damage around too much since it is largely unfamiliar with the Bolas deck. Pretty fun game though, even if I didn't get to pop off.

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 1 year ago

Bumping this thread to discuss the merits of Nine-Lives Familiar. This card gives you a potential of 9 bodies for 3 mana. And you can get 4 per rotation if you want them. I think this is a pretty good rate, in comparison to Bloodghast, that would be 8 land drops to match the recursion potential of 9-Lives Familiar, which is unlikely given the power level this deck is operating at. I am really liking the potential of the Familiar as a self-recursive creature that has far easier time getting back into play than any other creature of equal or lesser mana value excepting maybe Gravecrawler in specific decks. Being a 1/1 is trivially easy to reset the counters on it and keep the train rolling another 8 times!

Spinner of Souls is also going to get a spot to try out at a card advantage engine. This along with the familiar and a sac-outlet can really gain some value in a hurry, and they are both low on the mana curve. Another reason why I am looking for one or two NON-TOKEN creatures that are easy to recur to trigger all the things that care about non-token creatures.

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 1 year ago

Trying to up my formatting game for some of these updates

. I like this style of change update from WizardMN's threads, so I copied it

Changes

CUTS

1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Mindslicer

1 Archon of Justice

ADDS

1 Stroke of Midnight

1 Spinner of Souls

1 Nine-Lives Familiar

My deck is still leaning too much on the reactive side of things. The faster the format goes, the less sitting around I can be doing reacting to opponent's actions. Even control decks need to advance to a winning position at some point. Step 1 includes moving sorcery speed removal to instant, pretty obvious. The Judge Vindicate is a pet card and stays for now. Step 2 is lowering the mana curve, I am still very heavy on 4-6 drops, so bringing some of those out for the more proactive cards will allow me to double spell and make better use of my engines. Couple of my 4-5 drops are replacing sorcery mass removal at the same mana value. Step 3 is just increasing overall synergy and moving away from some of the top heavy creatures that get stuck in my hand if I can't mill them. I still regularly get stuck with 3 top end creatures in opening hand waiting until turn 4-5 to get going. That is simply too slow for this deck, even being a control deck. Having a few more set-up cards for turn 3 and 4 will be immensely useful.

The hardest to cut was Mindslicer, since I was gifted an Odessy foil and the card is now orphaned. It may come back in when the rest of the curve is fixed. But generally I don't find myself wanting to fire it off that often unless I'm in a commanding lead after a Living Death. Sort of a win-more card if anything. And using it proactively to just slow down the game makes me a big target.

Archon of Justice was an easy one. It was supposed to be waiting for a Solitude, but I suppose I can make another slot when I get a second copy. I want to try these other cards and Archon was too painfully slow and expensive as a removal.

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 8 months ago

Changes

CUTS

1 Ashen Rider

1 Plains

1 Swamp

1 Murmuring Bosk

ADDS

1 Warren Soultrader

1 Lush Portico

1 Underground Mortuary

1 Shadowy Backstreet

Few more changes to further reduce the mana curve. I think I need more ramp, since all the creature looping requires mana. Though the first few creatures to come back from the graveyard are typically ramp creatures. Sure wish we get a functional reprint of Sakura-Tribe Elder at some point. Throwing in the Surveil lands because I picked them up in foil for this deck and didn't want to swap out the Filter lands. With creatures tutoring non-basics into play now I don't see 8 basics as a liability that it once was. Only 3 creatures search basics only I think, so I can recur them multiple times each and still have targets.

Taking out Ashen Rider, though funny enough sort of missed it in the last game. I had Birthing Pod into Sepulchral Primordial and was really wishing I could pod up to Rider. Though Woodfall Primus does similar things while being a win-con combo piece. Alas, my Primordial didn't make it to my next turn before we got Maze's End'ed. I had a sweet early set up with a turn 3 Luminous Broodmoth which was set up for turn 4 Yavimaya Granger for double ramp, into Birthing Pod for Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, but the Moth was removed before I could make it happen

I want to get Archon of Cruelty, but Woodfall won't come out for it, and I can't afford to take out Sepulchral Primordial as my only 7 drop for the pod chain. So Archon might get left on the sidelines for now. Also thinking about Solitude coming in for Stroke of Midnight, but I do really love some flexible removal. With that gone, only Assassin's Trophy and Vindicate hit any permanent for a reasonable cost. Qasali Pridemage is my primary disenchant support. Though Solitude is a really good card here, and free interaction is at a premium. This would probably be better as Deadly Rollick if I had one.

I have committed to playing this deck a bit more. The base line bracket 3 power level has increased enough for this deck to see play in any standard game we play. That way I don't have to relegate it to "high power" games as we call them, where we play meaner cards and combo finish. That way this ultra expensive deck gets a little more use. I have come WAYYYYY down on the removal package in favor of more proactive plans, almost to the point of detriment, but I don't want games going 2+hrs long, so I think I just need some more reps with the list as it is now.

Post by WizardMN 8 months ago

I am not sure on cutting Bosk. It does nearly always enter tapped, which is unfortunate, but it is 1 of 2 fetchable tri-lands in the game for this color combo and I still think the fixing it can provide is worth it. Have you noticed that Indatha Triome is enough for three color lands? I wonder if you have noticed Bosk not being as necessary? If so, I might have to pay more attention to how often it comes up for me as well.

I do agree on the Surveil lands though. I have them in my list and I am thinking of adding them to more of my lists as well.

I think Soutrader is a great card and I keep going back and forth on Ashen Rider in my own list. The mana cost is so restrictive but the effect is also so good. I realize our lists are quite different so maybe it isn't as much of an issue in your list. I would like to hear more on your experience with cutting it. Especially since you can get to it far easier with Pod than I can.

In terms of another Sakura, the best I think we have access to are Dawntreader Elk and Diligent Farmhand. They are 3 mana total vs 2 mana for Sakura but they sac themselves which allow for more use out of Karador. I suppose Yavimaya Granger does something similar in your list as well so maybe it isn't worth trying to go up on these?

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 8 months ago

Good points, thanks for posting.
The deck is color hungry, but after the Triome I'm usually content. My interaction suite is less color hungry, so if I'm leaving mana up, I'm not usually needing both and in just 2 lands. I just didn't want to go down to 7 basics is all. And I like all my niche utility lands too much. Though showing Woodfall Primus to bring Bosk in untapped is a pro gamer move

, it has only happened a handful of times in a decade.

I will have to see how much I miss Ashen Rider. The last couple times I remember seeing the card, it was in my hand and just never felt good about the 8 mana required to cast it. Cheating it in is obviously great value. I think Woodfall Primus, while noticeably weaker on the removal, brings back a second body for more triggers, and has combo synergy for the top end slot. That and the shadowmoor foil I paid $30 for won't let me sideline the card. Same with the judge Vindicate|26480.

Dawntreader Elk was in the deck for years, and is still in my sideboard for it, but funny enough, I actually wanted the creature to stick around longer to trigger other sac outlets, like Braids, Arisen Nightmare, Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, and Wight of the Reliquary. Also it requires additional mana to trigger after coming back off Sun Titan, Reveillark, Luminous Broodmoth, and Nethroi, Apex of Death. That's almost 10 cards right off the bat that favors Farhaven Elf over Dawntreader Elk. Sort of makes Steve sound bad, but being cheaper to cast and free to activate is a big deal to me.

Hypocritically, I'm playing Qasali Pridemage overReclamation Sage which goes opposite of all those arguments. Maybe I want Sage over Pridemage too. but I also do need some 2-drops for the early game. And Pridemage can be a decent rattlesnake if I need it to be.

I started the "How do you win in Control" thread for this deck. I don't generally win through combat here. Usually Kokusho, the Evening Star drain or Living Death overrun with occasional Yosei, the Morning Star lock. That is only 3 real win conditions since creature combat generally doesn't happen for me. Standard Green Overrun doesn't work when I only get 3 creatures in play on average. Token makers have been hit and miss, though mostly miss since I wipe the board a lot. And my devotion is generally not high enough to make Gary a meaningful threat. So the deck has a bit of an identity crisis right now, and I'm too invested to scrap and start fresh.

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 6 months ago

Couple minor changes as I try to bring this deck into 2026. I think I'm getting over my aversion to playing control in commander. My group is starting to get out of hand with midrange (myself included) and I think it's time for a dose of reality in the pod. So I'll be bringing this deck out more often, and as such want to help it keep up with modern card quality and explosiveness.

Reality #1: I need cheaper spot removal. Stroke of Midnight came in for Maelstrom Pulse for instant speed, but holding 3 mana is hard when I need to sequence other plays. I'm thinking Unwanted Remake or Bovine Intervention for a little flexibility, though 1 mana is very attractive.

Reality #2: I have too much recursion in the 99. Why do I need 13 slots dedicated to recursion when I have that effect already in the command zone. The point of a commander is to allow it to fill a spot in the strategy and free up space in the 99. I need to let that happen here and take some of the top end recursion and replace with ramp, draw, and interaction.

Reality #3: I need to accept combo finish in the late game. This is a fact of life for slower decks. If I can't find the life-drain option, combo will need to be my fallback. We don't play much combo in my meta, so a little here shouldn't spoil the fun much.

Decklist

OUT

1 Junji, the Midnight Sky

1 Nim Deathmantle

IN

1 Sinister Gnarlbark

1 Wight of the Reliquary

Sad to see Junji go, but he was too reactive, and too expensive for what I wanted him to do. I simply have too many 5 and 6 drops and I think I'm flush on recursion when I have it in the command zone already. Karador simply didn't do much when most of my card advantage in the 99 was geared toward recursion.

Sinister Gnarlbark is a great card here, being the truest form of Phyrexian Arena with legs (branches) that also triggers the same turn. Draws 4 cards without any additional support before dying to Blight. Counts as 0 power for Nethroi, Apex of Death to boot!. Makes me want to bring back Murmuring Bosk already.

Nim Deathmantle has been too much mana to reliably activate, and has been out of the deck for a year now. Can't for the life of me remember what replaced it, so I'll look a little closer and try to figure out what went in. I think it was Wight of the Reliquary since I don't see that card on any previous swap lists and I know it's in there.

I'm also wondering if Knight of Autumn needs to come in now as a way to gain life from my sacrifice loops. It has stayed out to keep my loops from going infinite so easily, so maybe it says out until I get more comfortable with combo finish. I skip several non-restrictive creature sacrifice outlets for this reason already.

Post by WizardMN 6 months ago

I like the cuts. I haven't gotten to the point of cutting Junji but it is something worth considering. I would be interested in hearing if you miss it. Deathmantle is one I cut years ago and I think it is a good call.

I know you said you already had Wight in the list. How have you been liking it? I have been debating cutting it in my list for some time now due to being slow.

Gnarlbark is one I must have missed along the line but I wonder if that too might be too slow. That is, it looks really good when gotten early, but as the game wears on, it becomes less and less useful. But maybe it works out better than I am giving it credit for.

As to your other points: spot removal is one of the things that I have gone back and forth on over the years. I started with primarily board wipes, then moved into a higher number of spot removal cards, and now I am back to relying on board wipes. I am not sure there is a right answer here as I feel this is very meta dependent. In terms of spot removal, I would honestly lean towards Bovine Intervention over Unwanted Remake for 2 reasons: being able to hit an artifact is relevant, and it only gives them a 2/2 token. Remake allows them to morph that token into something else (potentially). Yes, it could also remove a powerful noncreature from their grasp but I think I like knowing their 2/2 is just a 2/2 and I don't need to always worry about it being turned face up. It is a rare enough scenario that I don't think you are wrong for deciding it isn't worth accounting for though.

This is my current focus of the deck (or, one of them). I have added quite a bit of recursion to the deck to utilize the graveyard better. Yes, Karador is our main card but we probably should have others. With that being said, I do agree 13 pieces seems to be on the top end. I am not sure which to cut but I can agree bringing it down. So the cuts in that context make sense.

I can see Knight of Autumn being a decent option and the flexibility it offers is pretty good. 4 life isn't nothing and being able to take out artifacts or enchantments is pretty good too.

How have you been liking Martyr's Cause? It seems like it wouldn't do a lot? Blocking a creature and then sacrificing that creature to prevent the damage from another creature seems alright but you need a steady stream of creatures to make that work. Arguably, in a turn cycle you could just have the other players gang up on you a bit and you lose out on a fair amount of your board. Maybe it plays out differently than that though?

PrimevalCommander · Post by PrimevalCommander 6 months ago

WizardMN wrote: ↑
6 months ago
How have you been liking Martyr's Cause? It seems like it wouldn't do a lot? Blocking a creature and then sacrificing that creature to prevent the damage from another creature seems alright but you need a steady stream of creatures to make that work. Arguably, in a turn cycle you could just have the other players gang up on you a bit and you lose out on a fair amount of your board. Maybe it plays out differently than that though?

It does play out different. About as different as saying "Propoganda doesn't do much because they can just pay the ". We all know if someone has a nice beefy 6/6 with flying, they are going to want it to have the largest impact, and trading for my Yavimaya Granger that's just waiting to trigger my Morbid Opportunist just isn't attractive. Sure they can say I'll make him sacrifice the creature and you attack with your thing, but this card plays out more like a one sided Peacekeeper than you would imagine. As long as you have some fodder around. Never stops the big alpha strike, but if I'm at that point, why did I let it get to that point? Works wonders against flyers and tramplers, which I see a lot of. Hilarious when someone doesn't really notice this do-nothing card and swing a big trampler then you "block" it with a little 1/1 and take nothing. I keep it in so I'm not tempted by mana altars and other infinite payoffs, but I generally like seeing it and it worked great last time I had it in play. It's a pet card, but a functional one.

I haven't seen Wight a ton, but I really like it so far. It's generally a 5/5+ for if it's not cast on turn 2, so it's a fabulous blocker until it comes online. Having vigilance means it eats small blocking creatures while holding down the fort, and the creature-for-land trade is one of my favorites to make. I'm pretty sure its got a permanent spot since it does everything I want and more. Granted as a dedicated sac outlet, it's slow, but the upside is worth. And once I get 1 activation, I find Phyrexian Tower, and 2 sac triggers is generally all I really need in 1 turn cycle. I'm not a swarm deck, so 3-4 creatures is a full board for me. Saving the best 2 generally keeps me going.

Sinister Gnarlbark triggers the turn it enters, so it's not as slow as other things I've tried. Easy to recur, easy to sac, triggers same turn, this is just a little grease card that I have been needing more of for my early game. Comes back off Reveillark, which some of my better utility dudes don't like Soultrader, Spinner of Souls, Corpse Augur, and the Tortoise. Overall I still need to lower the curve since I commonly get 5 and 6 drops stuck in my hand if I'm not finding my (notably limited) ramp pieces.

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