Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[materpillar]

Eh, hexhaven invigorator is probably fine. Cost is very restrictive, and it generally needs another spell to resolve to do anything. Obviously strong with fight spells, but you get very blown out by interaction, and fight spells are bad in most decks.

The question is, can I shove GGGG in my wayta Sorrow's Path deck...

That was literally my first thought too and that isn't even my deck. xD

Well, we did it boys, in Kwia Vigorbloom we finally broke %$#%$#% Juju Bubble

Infinite life, infinite Black Lotus tokens, making infinite mana and infinite permanent sac triggers, token creation triggers, and artifact entry triggers.


Such a nice gift for its 30th anniversary

It makes Lotus Petals not Black Lotus

nvm I can't read, still has "only once each turn"

[DirkGently]

Just use Hexhaven Invigorator to tutor your Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth, duh.

You're joking, but since I'm already running a ton of land tutors and often want yavimaya in play to tap sorrow's path anyway, I can just make yavimaya my first tutor, and then I guess have my commander fight the invigorator to find sorrow's path (plus thespian's stage or something). And from there it can just go ham. So it probably is a solid inclusion for the deck. Noice.

[CommanderMaster999]

Will do a leak card

SPOILER

Show

Hide

Emrakul number four is definitely the worst one when you compare to the other three

First one is extra turn with board annilhilation, second is Mindslaver, the third steals one players entire board of creatures

The fourth one untaps all your lands for the cast trigger after that it's a French vanillia 12/12 flyer and trample with ward sac three permanents (the second and third are also French vanillia afterwards)

But what I do like with the fourth one she does the same trick the outlaws from new capenna do you can make a land tap for particular colors and cast it later emrakul gives Ancient Tomb

[folding_music]

Budding Insurgent is cool. but they gotta think of a better class than "Scout" for activists and uhhh rebels

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

Will do a leak card

I think it's an official spoiler, not a leak.

Although you might want to keep the spoiler tags, for story reasons.

[Hermes_]

the art for Way of the Pyromancer is giving me feelings and i love the art and flavor text on Clash of Elements

I also need the following cards/art

[Mookie]

Emrakul, the Exigent Doom is neat. Ramp in the early game, beater in the lategame. She is sort of just a pile of stats when she hits the field, but she's a really big pile of stats, and ward - annihilator 3 means she's very painful to get rid of. Untapping your lands isn't quite as exciting by the time you get to 10 mana, but it does have some combo applications. Great with any form of free casting / cost reduction and can potentially go infinite with some bounce effects, similar to Zacama, Primal Calamity. Alternatively, Possibility Storm + cast triggers is always a good time.

I suspect she'll be a colorless Harrow most of the time - no landfall triggers, but you turn one land into two untapped mana at instant speed. Unclear if that's better than Commander's Sphere or other, more traditional mana rocks... but I suspect it is if you're even somewhat concerned about artifact destruction. I guess your opponents could technically blow up the land, but I'm a bit dubious of that line (and it doesn't get rid of Emrakul anyway). I do think she looks pretty reasonable for non-green decks as a ramp spell, particularly if they want to operate at instant speed (i.e. many Ux control lists).

[DirkGently]

On one hand, "empower jace" is pretty goofy. On the other hand, I feel like it could create some really solid limited gameplay, since it adds a lot of decisions about whether to scry, draw, or do nothing anticipating additional counters later--plus decisions around whether to attack the token or go face. In general I think low-powered Planeswalkers are fun, and this is that as a mechanic.

Very goofy, though.

[MAGUSZANIN]

I think Overwrite the Multiverse is pretty respectable?

On it's face a 6 mana wipe that exiles everything and draws a card or two is pretty good in Black. You can bin your board to a sac outlet and you keep your non-creature assets unlike with Farewell. An equivalent effect flat out does not exist in black, with Final Act at least destroying everything and then exiling, and most others saying destroy with no exile option. Living Death can backfire depending on the board, and Heartless Conscription costing 2 more mana albeit with a cool upside.

Regardless, it is a nice new option in Black's suite. I could easily see playing it in Golgari or Dimir, where the second color does not add a lot of good wipe options and you hopefully have the means to make it mostly one sided.

[TheGildedGoose]

I think Overwrite the Multiverse is pretty respectable?

On it's face a 6 mana wipe that exiles everything and draws a card or two is pretty good in Black. You can bin your board to a sac outlet and you keep your non-creature assets unlike with Farewell. An equivalent effect flat out does not exist in black, with Final Act at least destroying everything and then exiling, and most others saying destroy with no exile option. Living Death can backfire depending on the board, and Heartless Conscription costing 2 more mana albeit with a cool upside.

Regardless, it is a nice new option in Black's suite. I could easily see playing it in Golgari or Dimir, where the second color does not add a lot of good wipe options and you hopefully have the means to make it mostly one sided.

It's definitely in consideration for my mono-black aristocrats list, as it fits the precise criteria you mention. Six is steep, but this is the color of Cabal Coffers and Crypt Ghast.

[DirkGently]

you keep your non-creature assets unlike with Farewell.

huh?

It does seem like a solid wipe, though. Creature only at 6 isn't anything crazy, but black has weaker options than white so it's in contention.

[5colorsrainbow]

I agree with Overwrite, 6 mana for a wrath is bit higher but the exile and the draw and/or surveil makes it feel right. If you are runnning super friends it also gives you a free walker.

On one hand, "empower jace" is pretty goofy. On the other hand, I feel like it could create some really solid limited gameplay, since it adds a lot of decisions about whether to scry, draw, or do nothing anticipating additional counters later--plus decisions around whether to attack the token or go face. In general I think low-powered Planeswalkers are fun, and this is that as a mechanic.

There is also planeswalker support cards as well which gives another layer since you could have ways to + the token or stuff like echo-ajani.

[MAGUSZANIN]

huh?

It does seem like a solid wipe, though. Creature only at 6 isn't anything crazy, but black has weaker options than white so it's in contention.

I almost always see Farewell cast with the artifact, enchantment, or both modes active. And I almost never see it cast without the graveyard mode.

That creates a situation where carrying over value post wipe is much harder than it would be otherwise, even for the caster. This card doesn't have that problem by virtue of being creature only and not seeing the graveyard.

[onering]

I'm ok with Jace being the focus, as someone who generally hated Jace for most of his existence.

Guys, he's finally actually interesting. He got somewhat interesting on Ixalan, and now he's a genuinely interesting character.

[Hermes_]

I will die on this hill: Jace needs therapy and a hug.

[onering]

Also, I like how weird this set is getting. It's not playing it safe, but it's also not just spitting out tropes and calling it world building. The "alt universe" thing is a trope, and one magic has done before, but it's a broad one that leaves a lot of room for creativity as opposed to just rote references, and theyve done a good job at crafting a story around it that fits into the larger story, and of translating it into cards and world building in an interesting way.

But the weirdness, it's weird in a very 90s way. Tam is the sort of character that would have fit in one of the late 90s, or even pre revisionist stories, maybe early 2000s which still had the same vibe, while Jace's entire plan, and his body and mind literally splitting and him willing it back together then walling off parts of himself, that's very Oldwalker.

We aren't quite at "Urza gets into a disagreement with a gazebo and the gazebo accidentally fireballs itself" levels of weird, but this is about as close as we have been in 20 years.

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

I know this isn't really the place for it but in the last chapter

SPOILER

Show

Hide

Emrakul comes and eats the Echoverse, ending a gazillion lives in the process.

That is one hell of a kill count for Tam.

Although the story repeatedly emphasizes the Echoverse people aren't fully real, not quite yet (hence the need for the overlay) but still....

SPOILER

Show

Hide

Also extremely disappointing return to the status quo.

I had assumed that the "big shift" Rosewater was talking about was the introduction of a proper Multiverse, with alternate worlds and timelines. I thought the Echoverse would continue to exist along the "real" Multiverse, allowing MtG to explore various "what-if" scenarios and alternate timelines on a more permanent, ongoing basis, like similar to Multiverse model used by comics like Marvel.

[Mookie]

More stuff!

• Face Yourself is half Clone Legion, half Insurrection. Keeping the creatures is interesting if you do happen to be running planeswalkers, but probably still worth consideration even without them. I'll note that you can also use it to double your own creatures, which is neat - sort of like a giant Heat Shimmer.
• Cruel Calculations is does nothing in a vacuum, but mill decks can pump out some absurd numbers. Draw 6? Draw 10? Draw 40? The sky is the limit with this one.
• Winter, Tormented Loner is another Fleshbag Marauder. Somewhat interesting in that the sacrifice is optional, the combat stats are reasonable, and Winter is legendary. I would generally say that Fleshbag doesn't make the cut these days outside dedicated decks, but those may be enough upsides for Winter to be good.
• Overwrite the Multiverse seems like a fine board wipe - exile everything plus draw a card or two. Seems very solid in control decks. You are paying a premium for the exile though - I feel like I would usually prefer the tempo boost from something like Blood on the Snow.

[5colorsrainbow]

A thread for story stuff, I feel like there might be a lot to express or talk on, please click the storylinks and/or watch the youtube videos (mute the tab if you want) if you can to help show wizards there is an intreast in their own ip.
viewtopic.php?p=2126893#p2126893

[onering]

SPOILER

Show

Hide

I'm happy the echoverse isn't a permanent thing. Two multiverses permanently existing is kind of dumb tbh. Something that sets magic apart is that it's timeline is solid and messing with it has the potential to destroy everything. Branching realities don't really exist, the multiverse is unique because it's planes of existence represent different ways reality can exist from different starting points, rather than alternate realities that arise from branching events. A "what if" is fun every once in awhile, but I appreciate that Magic has kept it very restricted and ensures that every time something like that happens it's either an existential threat or a symptom of one. A more traditional multiverse is less unique and ends up becoming pretty repetitive. You either get stuck doing what ifs that recursively reference the main timeline, which quickly gets tiresome, or you get creative enough that you create worlds that could fit just as easily within the multiverse Magic already has, which makes a traditional multiverse superfluous. Add to that, we now have a "plane" that exists outside of the multiverse in just straight up outer space, which further confuses everything and presents yet another infinite canvas to explore, with different worlds being able to bet settings for different stories, characters, creature types, etc. The Echoverse works much better as a threat that hasn't become real yet, with its inhabitants being almost illusions propped up by Jace and acting out his will rather than their own, potential lives that can truly exist only at the cost of actual lives of the real multiverse.

[NZB2323]

I think Overwrite the Multiverse is pretty respectable?

On it's face a 6 mana wipe that exiles everything and draws a card or two is pretty good in Black. You can bin your board to a sac outlet and you keep your non-creature assets unlike with Farewell. An equivalent effect flat out does not exist in black, with Final Act at least destroying everything and then exiling, and most others saying destroy with no exile option. Living Death can backfire depending on the board, and Heartless Conscription costing 2 more mana albeit with a cool upside.

Regardless, it is a nice new option in Black's suite. I could easily see playing it in Golgari or Dimir, where the second color does not add a lot of good wipe options and you hopefully have the means to make it mostly one sided.

I don't know. 6 mana is a lot, black has Damnation, Toxic Deluge, Blasphemous Edict, and The Meathook Massacre, black likes death triggers, and black likes getting creatures back from the GY.

I think a color shifted board wipe would be more interesting, like a less mana intense curse of the swine or Ezuri's Predation.

[DirkGently]

I almost always see Farewell cast with the artifact, enchantment, or both modes active. And I almost never see it cast without the graveyard mode.

That creates a situation where carrying over value post wipe is much harder than it would be otherwise, even for the caster. This card doesn't have that problem by virtue of being creature only and not seeing the graveyard.

But you can carry over value through farewell if you want? Having the option to blow artifacts, enchantments, and/or graveyards can't be a downside. I don't really understand the framing. You blow any types where you're at a disadvantage, and keep the ones where you're advantaged. Only time you full wipe is when you're disadvantaged at every type, in which case blowing those things is obviously good for you and "keeping value" puts you behind.

I've played farewell with all sorts of combinations, idk why anyone would assume it wipes everything.

[onering]

Yeah, Farewell is the gold standard because of the flexibility as much as for its ability to just reset everything. Overwrite just pales in comparison with it's only upside being that you get a walker that may draw you a few cards over time.

Overwrite needs to be compared to other black wipes, and the fact that you might draw a few cards off it and that it exiles are selling points. While Black generally benefits from its own creatures hitting the graveyard, and even from opponents creatures dying, sometimes you need the exile to deal with certain problems and that lets Overwrite stand out.

[cheonice]

I will die on this hill: Jace needs therapy and a hug.

Yep. This story reads like the classic "men will do anything to avoid therapy".

Creating your own Multiverse to "fix the pain". Abuse your adopted child for the greater good. Pushing everyone you love away to avoid confronting your feelings. Getting a god complex. Frankensteining a daughter out of thin air (of course it's a woman, because men need someone to control I guess?). And then everyone is still sorry for you and tries to be sympathetic... [/rant]

[Serenade]

Mostly I am reminded that I need to get a Final Act…and maybe run Sunfall more often.