Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[Venedrex]

I once had someone shuffle up after two turns under a Hushbringer.

people forget that white is the "fair" colour and is trying to get everyone to play battle cruiser magic. i was playing gw hatebears and played hushwing gryff into brago, muldrotha, and sythis. i died 2 turns later cause everyone remembered to turn their creatures sideways instead of keeping them in portrait mode.

but I think Ryan is wayyyy off base here.

who is Ryan?

He's one of the main members of a CEDH Youtube channel called playing with power, and he's on twitter as @PWPRyan

[DirkGently]

Also, its a bit weird for Sheldon to say they wait on the card to have an effect when they day 0 murdered my boy Lutri, the Spellchaser .

Lutri was an unusual situation since it cost literally nothing* to include in a deck. It would make literally any RU deck better to own one. It would become the most auto-include to ever auto-include. It's tantamount to saying "if you're playing RU, you get to draw an extra card at the start of the game". You don't even need to read what the card does beyond the companion mechanic to understand why it's a problem.

No normal card, no matter how strong, can create that same issue.

It does sometimes annoy me that so many of the biggest faces in magic - Sheldon, The Professor, Maro - are not proficient at the game or card evaluation. But I'm sure when the card has been out for a bit he'll realize he was getting worked up over nothing, until the next panic attack sets in.

*Don't @ me about your stupid grixis Shadowborn Apostle deck I do not care.

[Venedrex]

Also, its a bit weird for Sheldon to say they wait on the card to have an effect when they day 0 murdered my boy Lutri, the Spellchaser .

Lutri was an unusual situation since it cost literally nothing* to include in a deck. It would make literally any RU deck better to own one. It would become the most auto-include to ever auto-include. It's tantamount to saying "if you're playing RU, you get to draw an extra card at the start of the game". You don't even need to read what the card does beyond the companion mechanic to understand why it's a problem.

No normal card, no matter how strong, can create that same issue.

It does sometimes annoy me that so many of the biggest faces in magic - Sheldon, The Professor, Maro - are not proficient at the game or card evaluation. But I'm sure when the card has been out for a bit he'll realize he was getting worked up over nothing, until the next panic attack sets in.

*Don't @ me about your stupid grixis Shadowborn Apostle deck I do not care.

Yeah, I do agree that Lutri should be banned. No color combination should have a free include extra card with a potent effect to boot. Honestly the problem is Wotc has only made three otters in the game's existence so everyone is upset they can't play the cute animal cards. Just make some more otters and people would forget all about old Lutri.

[duducrash]

if "Banned as a companion" Is too confusing for people to understand, we might as well give up the rules text and go with drawings. I don't get it, the "banned as" is confusing crowd. it's like literally what it says.

[DirkGently]

if "Banned as a companion" Is too confusing for people to understand, we might as well give up the rules text and go with drawings. I don't get it, the "banned as" is confusing crowd. it's like literally what it says.

Each individual rule in magic is, for the most part, pretty simple. Add them all together, and it's a nightmare that takes decades to become completely proficient in. Every castle is made up of individual stones.

The addition of any rule must be evaluated based on what benefit it brings. What value does having "banned a companion" as a separate list, including only one card, bring? We get to pseudo-unban one card out of the tens of thousands that exist, and not even a particularly interesting one as it's basically just a worse Dualcaster Mage. We've even got Naru Meha, Master Wizard if you desperately want the effect in the CZ (albeit without red).

I know it's hard for us enfranchised players to imagine, but the rules are an enormous barrier to entry for new players. Jon...%$#%$#% it Jon...got caught out with a Monk Class and a Prophet of Kruphix in his freaking Yarok, the Desecrated deck the night before last. That's what we're dealing with here.

[Mookie]

My opinion of Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines is that it's a powerful card that will lead to some unpleasant game states, but it isn't any more banworthy than Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, or any of the other praetors. That's... sort of the Phyrexian's schtick, honestly - 'miserable to play against' is how I would describe pretty much all of them.

I would say that I have two complaints about Elesh Norn. One is that she only costs a single white pip of mana. That, combined with an efficient 4/7 for 5 body, means she's easy to include in a wide variety of decks. I don't mind hate pieces showing up occasionally, and people should probably play more of them, but... they're usually symmetric, and require some deckbuilding considerations. Elesh Norn fits into too many decks.

My other complaint is that lock pieces that protect themselves are extremely frustrating to deal with. I don't actually think Elesh Norn is that bad on that front, since she's only protected from Nekrataal effects, but it is a thing I'll call out.

Overall? Not banworthy, but I don't think she'll lead to particularly fun games either.

[darrenhabib]

I mean Sheldon was worried that unbanning Painter's Servant would lead to problems with Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. Like wtf mate!? You couldn't get a more disconnected bunch with how Commander is actually built and played. Waits for incoming shills .. 3 .. 2 .. 1 ..

[Dunharrow]

My other complaint is that lock pieces that protect themselves are extremely frustrating to deal with. I don't actually think Elesh Norn is that bad on that front, since she's only protected from Nekrataal effects, but it is a thing I'll call out.

She is also protected from Oblivion Ring effects

and I guess The Meathook Massacre

I am sure there are more of these examples.

I do think that it might make people like me rethink slamming Ravenous Chupacabra into every black deck. Or at least redundant ETB murder creatures.

[folding_music]

I think it's funny that new Elesh Norn's vigilance makes it extra-susceptible to rubbish old venom + lure attacks eg. Ochran Assassin
I do slightly fear the card because it does have this "turns off decks at certain power levels" effect, and a lot of the people here don't really see that cos they slam a lot of powerful staples and run massive amounts of removal

[Gentle Giant]

I think what a lot of people are missing concerning Sheldon's article is the fact that he's pointing to this card as something that doesn't exactly improve the format. Akin to @Mookie's points, it's a card that, for games at the level at which most people play, doesn't lead to a net gain in more interesting deckbuilding or play. It does all the work for you by being so strong yet so asymmetrical. Similar effects exist, but not at this level of convenience.

Does that make it bannable? Probably not, given similar existing cards. But it's pretty reasonable to not want more of these kind of cards to exist, hence his mail to studio X. To me, that's a core part of his article: if these cards can be made less easy-mode before print, we're less likely to have chulane-level cards enter the card pool. Now that it's here, yeah it's perhaps not as bad as other egregious existing cards, but it didn't have to be so close to being one and that's the crux of the issue.

[5colorsrainbow]

Kaito is safe from being compleated!

I love how Kaito and ninja tribal ends up being more aggro than your typical UB deck but still has control elements. (And as my group allows it) excited for my ninja deck to try him out a commander.

[Henlock]

I came to this thread to get some light on what was happening with Elesh Norn. To be honest, I couldn't see why there was so much ado about it.

And what I get here is the same feeling, plus this idea of the article and this kind of discourse being what's not good for the format.

Judging by my own decks, this is far from an autoinclude. For etb hate, we have cheaper options. So you need to be high on Etbs to prefer this. I don't think it slots well in any of my decks that run white. I just checked both my Asmira, Holy Avenger and Ghost of Ramirez DePietro/Ravos, Soultender and both have too few interesting etbs to exploit. My other decks simply want to do something else.

I am sure it is very good and that many people will try it, but a 5 mana creature usually needs to fit your plan.

[Venedrex]

I think what a lot of people are missing concerning Sheldon's article is the fact that he's pointing to this card as something that doesn't exactly improve the format. Akin to @Mookie's points, it's a card that, for games at the level at which most people play, doesn't lead to a net gain in more interesting deckbuilding or play. It does all the work for you by being so strong yet so asymmetrical. Similar effects exist, but not at this level of convenience.

Does that make it bannable? Probably not, given similar existing cards. But it's pretty reasonable to not want more of these kind of cards to exist, hence his mail to studio X. To me, that's a core part of his article: if these cards can be made less easy-mode before print, we're less likely to have chulane-level cards enter the card pool. Now that it's here, yeah it's perhaps not as bad as other egregious existing cards, but it didn't have to be so close to being one and that's the crux of the issue.

If that's the case, I wish he would've done this six years ago. The generic value engine ship hasn't just sailed, it's crashed on the rocks. If Sheldon has such an issue with these cards, he's far too late to make an impact.

[pokken]

The ship sailed so long ago on cards you have to decide not to play due to judgment that I just don't care anymore. Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines is like #40 on the list of tedious %$#%$#% people aren't going to enjoy that much but that might be fair play if your meta warrants it.

Commander remains as it has since 2008 or so in a state where you need to decide to create the experience you want.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I just wanna say I really like Suspicious Shambler. That's how you make draft chaff memorable.

[NZB2323]

Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines is an answer to maybe the most broken card in the format, Dockside Extortionist.

People don't like playing against counterspells, don't like discard, and this gives white another answer to ETB threats that Swords to Plowshares can't answer.

Are we sure this isn't a good thing for the format? I guess Yarok, the Desecrated players won't like it, but BUG has plenty of answers. And if the deck becomes super popular then opposing Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines players will shut each other down.

[materpillar]

All this Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines hype is way overblown. Yarok, the Desecrated has existed for years and is still way stronger solely based on being sultai (hello Palinchron). Torpor Orb has existed for years and is stronger since it's colorless and not a creature. I guess adding redundancy always slowly chips away at the singleton feeling of the format (looking at you billions of Blood Artist look-a-like).

She's a fairly pushed card that'll show up a bunch, just like every other praetor ever. I don't see how she's any more obnoxious than Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant with counterspell backup, Sheoldred, the Apocalypse with wheels, or Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider with planeswalkers. She actually seems the least annoying of all of the new ones except Urabrask, Heretic Praetor.

[DirkGently]

I do think having a stax piece that's also a synergy piece can create boring games. Anyone else relying on ETBs will need to keep it off the table, and then the pilots deck won't work anymore. Very one sided games in one direction or another.

Yarok, while a weaker effect, doesn't force removal per se, so he's more likely to stick around and do things.

Anyway nothing we haven't seen a hundred times before but still not great.

[Jemolk]

I think what a lot of people are missing concerning Sheldon's article is the fact that he's pointing to this card as something that doesn't exactly improve the format. Akin to @Mookie's points, it's a card that, for games at the level at which most people play, doesn't lead to a net gain in more interesting deckbuilding or play. It does all the work for you by being so strong yet so asymmetrical. Similar effects exist, but not at this level of convenience.

Does that make it bannable? Probably not, given similar existing cards. But it's pretty reasonable to not want more of these kind of cards to exist, hence his mail to studio X. To me, that's a core part of his article: if these cards can be made less easy-mode before print, we're less likely to have chulane-level cards enter the card pool. Now that it's here, yeah it's perhaps not as bad as other egregious existing cards, but it didn't have to be so close to being one and that's the crux of the issue.

If that's the case, I wish he would've done this six years ago. The generic value engine ship hasn't just sailed, it's crashed on the rocks. If Sheldon has such an issue with these cards, he's far too late to make an impact.

You're not wrong, but there's apparently discourse around this particular card already, so commenting on it doesn't seem at all out of place. The article seemed quite measured to me. Very much a "Yeah, we don't like it either, and we even said as much to WotC when we saw it. Doesn't necessarily mean it's banworthy, though."

[ISBPathfinder]

Did anyone else pick up on that Jor Kadeen, First Goldwarden is a rebel? I am not particularly interested in him so much as the fact that we might...... be able to expect more rebels given that we are seeing one. Maybe it will be a one and done situation but its been a seriously long time since we have seen a rebel. Here is me hoping to see more and make them white / colorless damnit.

[DirkGently]

Did anyone else pick up on that Jor Kadeen, First Goldwarden is a rebel? I am not particularly interested in him so much as the fact that we might...... be able to expect more rebels given that we are seeing one. Maybe it will be a one and done situation but its been a seriously long time since we have seen a rebel. Here is me hoping to see more and make them white / colorless damnit.

Good catch. Would definitely appreciate some some love for Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero in 2023. She's been pretty long in the tooth for a decade now.

[Serenade]

Never understood why Kaladesh did not have any given that was the storyline.

Unofficial Spoiler Discussion

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Given the very recent Commander precon spoilers, it does look like Jor is not the only member of the Mirran resistance who will be a rebel!

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[5colorsrainbow]

During the first look at ONE they said there would be 4 legendary rebels in the set but that's it.

[DirkGently]

Lol really? There better at least be a decent mono-white one.

Has any deck in history gotten fewer new cards than Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero?

[Mookie]

Unofficial Spoiler Discussion

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A pile of early leaks have dropped. I see a lot of new twists on old cards, but nothing crazy.
For Mirrodin! is a tweak on living weapon
New Melira is Watchwolf + Saffi Eriksdotter (minus combo potential)
Conduit of Worlds is a tweak on Crucible of Worlds
White Sun's Twilight is a tweak on Martial Coup
Skrelv's Hive is a white Bitterblossom (except the tokens are colorless - boo hiss)

As for new stuff...
New Kemba has potential with Colossus Hammer.
Graaz turns all your creatures into Juggernaut
Oil counter stuff looks pretty clunky, so I assume it's meant to play with proliferate.

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