Ur-Dragon Tribal Tribal: Randomized each game using batches

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Gentle Giant
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Post by Gentle Giant » 1 year ago



(Last updated: Baldur's gate-ish, still in progress)

Premise

Just before the Ur-Dragon came out, I began working on a janky list using Karona, False God and all the lords I had in my binder + the Lorwyn changelings. The goal being to be able to lol about my Mutant Ninja Turtles wreaking havoc and seeing interesting interactions between cards take shape. As the amount of changelings and cool tribal pay-offs grew, I began to have issues with making cuts: there's simply too much fun stuff to play, and way too little slots (If the 100-card deck limit was ever removed, this deck would probably be 200 cards big within no time). To alleviate the issue, I started making batches of common effects iso I can just grab a fixed, random number of each batch and shove them in the deck before shuffling up and playing. That way I'm not limited to a 100 cards (in a way), and I get to be surprised with what I have on hand each time! (Disclaimer: the batches aren't exhaustive by any means! And suggestions are very much welcome too!)

To alleviate complete disaster-piles, I've made samples that aim to achieve a specific type of gameplay. So far that includes combat and graveyard focused, but as @materpillar topic shows, there's more samples than that. Something for future iterations of this list/topic.

Additionally, there's a standard core to the deck which consists of changelings and lands. I don't go as far as Materpillar's list in terms of incorporating as many creature types in there, instead I've opted to put in my best suit of lands (only have one of each) to alleviate the unpredictability that comes with randomizing one's deck. Before we dive into the batches, here's the fixed core:

Core of the Deck




Batches

Batch 1: Attacking is key


Batch 2: Rewarding Going Broad





Batch 3: Ramp



Decklist
Approximate Total Cost:


Batch 4: Creature Removal



Decklist
Approximate Total Cost:


Batch 5: Artifact & Enchantment Removal



Decklist
Approximate Total Cost:


Batch 6: Boardwipes



Decklist
Approximate Total Cost:


Batch 7: Card Draw/Velocity/Tutor





Batch 8: Enters the Battlefield/Cast Triggers





Batch 9: Dies/Leaves the Battlefield Triggers





Batch 10: Sac Outlets





Batch 11: Retrieval




Specific sample mixes

BatchCombat-focusedGraveyard-focusedEtB-Focused
Attacking is key1200
Rewarding going Broad538
Ramp202
Creature Removal432
Artifact & Enchantment Removal323
Boardwipes232
Card advantage/Velocity/Tutors634
Enters the Battlefield triggers0812
Death & Leaves the Battlefield triggers080
Sacrifice Outlets080
Retrieval/Reanimation544


Further additions/thoughts

Truth be told, I haven't played the deck since the change to randomized batches (will do so soon though). Thus I have no idea how well this works or how fun it is, but I'm excited to find out! If it turns out horribly, I'll just make a couple of fixed shells and use those depending on what I feel like playing.
Some actual thoughts: the current batching is horrible: for example, some things fall under EtB, eventhough their effect is removal. I'm not satisfied with the current distribution/split, so input is very much welcome.
Last edited by Gentle Giant 1 year ago, edited 2 times in total.
Remember: not everyone is intent on 'growing as a player', analysing their meta and adapting to it, etc. For some people, Magic is just another board game.

Decklists:
A boy and his dog: an adventure (Rograkh & Yoshimaru) | Storytelling, Jank, Cute
Averna, Roulette Croupier: Cascade Chaos | Cascade, Chaos, Group Choices
The Ur-Dragon Tribal Tribal | Randomized Batches, Diverse, Quirky
Zirda, Patron Goddess of Trash Artisanry | Trash for Treasure, Artifact Aristocrats, low-powered

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materpillar
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Post by materpillar » 1 year ago

Oh man, I feel this deep in my soul. I have a deck box of all my extra changeling deck cards that got cut or just never got added in case some new stuff comes back. For example Seahunter is currently on the sidelines because there isn't any merfolk I'm interested in playing at the moment. There probably will be sometime though. That deck box is full enough I could easily build a second deck out of the cards there. I'll give your batches a couple of look sees later tonight.

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Gentle Giant
It's all jank, always has been
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Post by Gentle Giant » 1 year ago

materpillar wrote:
1 year ago
Oh man, I feel this deep in my soul. I have a deck box of all my extra changeling deck cards that got cut or just never got added in case some new stuff comes back. For example Seahunter is currently on the sidelines because there isn't any merfolk I'm interested in playing at the moment. There probably will be sometime though. That deck box is full enough I could easily build a second deck out of the cards there. I'll give your batches a couple of look sees later tonight.
Before I switched to this, everytime I'd see a new fun tribal card I'd have a happy moment followed by the angst of what the heck to cut for it. The current batches miss A LOT, so there's a lot of tuning to be done there. Looking forward to your input!
Remember: not everyone is intent on 'growing as a player', analysing their meta and adapting to it, etc. For some people, Magic is just another board game.

Decklists:
A boy and his dog: an adventure (Rograkh & Yoshimaru) | Storytelling, Jank, Cute
Averna, Roulette Croupier: Cascade Chaos | Cascade, Chaos, Group Choices
The Ur-Dragon Tribal Tribal | Randomized Batches, Diverse, Quirky
Zirda, Patron Goddess of Trash Artisanry | Trash for Treasure, Artifact Aristocrats, low-powered

Elywood
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Post by Elywood » 1 year ago

Super cool idea. I've been trying to build something "modular" for a while and this seems like a great fit! Would be cool to have a fixed X slots that you could easily grab from to randomize rather than arbitrary batch sizes here. Happy to contribute some ideas after I take a deeper look later

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Gentle Giant
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Post by Gentle Giant » 1 year ago

Elywood wrote:
1 year ago
Super cool idea. I've been trying to build something "modular" for a while and this seems like a great fit! Would be cool to have a fixed X slots that you could easily grab from to randomize rather than arbitrary batch sizes here. Happy to contribute some ideas after I take a deeper look later
Thanks! I'm curious, what do you mean with 'fixed X slots'? As in, keep each batch limited to an effect (sort of what the removal/ramp/etc. Batches are) and a set amount for each of those? So no generic EtB batch or 'combat' batch? Or do you mean setting a number for each batch? Because the latter is at the end of my post and is how these batches are used. Looking forward to your contributions!
Remember: not everyone is intent on 'growing as a player', analysing their meta and adapting to it, etc. For some people, Magic is just another board game.

Decklists:
A boy and his dog: an adventure (Rograkh & Yoshimaru) | Storytelling, Jank, Cute
Averna, Roulette Croupier: Cascade Chaos | Cascade, Chaos, Group Choices
The Ur-Dragon Tribal Tribal | Randomized Batches, Diverse, Quirky
Zirda, Patron Goddess of Trash Artisanry | Trash for Treasure, Artifact Aristocrats, low-powered

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materpillar
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Post by materpillar » 1 year ago

I'd recommend Avian Changeling and Mothdust Changeling instead of Fire-Belly Changeling and Impostor of the Sixth Pride. Flying is significantly more relevant for all the combat damage triggering synergies. Mothdust also has some niche synergies like with Magda, Brazen Outlaw when you couldn't otherwise attack.

You should pick up a Murmuring Bosk. It's an inexpensive, fetchable tri-land that's on theme.

Don't have Shared Animosity or Coat of Arms. Probably in the "go wide" section.

Ramp section is really small could have Marwyn, the Nurturer, Katilda, Dawnhart Prime, Heronblade Elite, and Altar of the Pantheon. I'm sure I'm forgetting some. That's off the top of my head.

Removal. Man you're hating on my boys Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves and Patron of the Vein. Peer Pressure is the coolest removal spell we own.

Mass board wipe you missed the coolest wrath Endemic Plague.

I'll post more as I have time.

Elywood
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Post by Elywood » 1 year ago

Gentle Giant wrote:
1 year ago
Thanks! I'm curious, what do you mean with 'fixed X slots'? As in, keep each batch limited to an effect (sort of what the removal/ramp/etc. Batches are) and a set amount for each of those? So no generic EtB batch or 'combat' batch? Or do you mean setting a number for each batch? Because the latter is at the end of my post and is how these batches are used. Looking forward to your contributions!
Yea I meant keeping each batch to a fixed # of cards so its easy to grab-and-swap.

Some recommendations:

Changeling
- Moritte of the Frost
- Black Market Connections

Attacking
- Knowledge Exploitation

Draw
- Liliana's Contract
- Cryptbreaker
- Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow

ETB (prob can split some of these up into other specific batches)
- Ganax, Astral Hunter
- Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm
- Necroduality
- Scourge of Valkas
- Spellstutter Sprite
- Dragon Tempest

Removal
- Reaper King

Ramp package
- Loam Dweller
- Grell Philosopher

Recursion
- Lazav, the Multifarious
- The Scarab God

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Gentle Giant
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Post by Gentle Giant » 1 year ago

Looking at some of the suggestions both of you do, this might be a good time to say that my playgroups are quite low-powered. Stuff like Coat of arms, Reaper King, and Liliana's Contract are a bit much (with some of the others also being borderline). Additionally, budget is a thing. Although the mana base suggests otherwise, my price range for "oof that's expensive, should I really pull the trigger on it?" is €3 to €5. Anything you see in the list that's more than that was acquired at a time when it was actually that low, in an older precon, or acquired through trade-ins for store credit when I was building a strong cube (hence the mana base).

So, while I agree that all those suggestions are good (I wish I had that new Black Market Connections!), they're simply not an option for me. I'm still dubbing whether to make this more of a community-topic or my own (as to keep track of what's in my decks instead of my binders). @materpillar, you're free to copy all of this to the primer if you want, I can send the formatted stuff too.

I've added my thoughts concerning specific non-bank-breaking cards below in bold
materpillar wrote:
1 year ago
I'd recommend Avian Changeling and Mothdust Changeling instead of Fire-Belly Changeling and Impostor of the Sixth Pride. Flying is significantly more relevant for all the combat damage triggering synergies. Mothdust also has some niche synergies like with Magda, Brazen Outlaw when you couldn't otherwise attack.
Yeah 100% agreed on these. These are those typical cards that I'll think about after I've placed a new order for singles.

You should pick up a Murmuring Bosk. It's an inexpensive, fetchable tri-land that's on theme.
Yeah, I'm not going to add the tribal duals, but this one is well worth it. What would you cut for it though? I'm thinking of dropping the 5 basics for the rest of the checklands and maybe something else

Don't have Shared Animosity or Coat of Arms. Probably in the "go wide" section.
My Shared Animosity is in a different deck, but might be low-power enough to make the go-wide section. I'll have to see whether I want to migrate it here. Solid cards though for sure

Ramp section is really small could have Marwyn, the Nurturer, Katilda, Dawnhart Prime, Heronblade Elite, and Altar of the Pantheon. I'm sure I'm forgetting some. That's off the top of my head.
Yeah, those are solid adds, although I probably will skip the pantheon (as I'm not going as hard on meeting as many tribes as possible).

Removal. Man you're hating on my boys Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves and Patron of the Vein. Peer Pressure is the coolest removal spell we own.
Oof, I forget about Tolsimir all the time, but he's stellar indeed. I've got a peer pressure in my binder, not sure why it's not in there. Patron of the Vein has got serious spunk, I like it!

Mass board wipe you missed the coolest wrath Endemic Plague.
While definitely a fitting add, I do notice that this deck tends to build up boards of utility it'd rather not wipe away. What's your experience with the card as opposed to more asymmetrical ones like Crux of Fate?

I'll post more as I have time.
Elywood wrote:
1 year ago
Yea I meant keeping each batch to a fixed # of cards so its easy to grab-and-swap.

Some recommendations:

Changeling
- Moritte of the Frost
- Black Market Connections

Moritte is in there, but I misspelled it.

Attacking
- Knowledge Exploitation
Stellar card, but mine's in another deck (Krydle of Baldur's Gate rogue-flavoured deck).

Draw
- Liliana's Contract
- Cryptbreaker
- Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
Aside from the bank breaker Yuriko and too-easy alt-win Contract, the Cryptbreaker is awesome. Not sure if I'm willing to pay the dough for it, but a strong add definitely.

ETB (prob can split some of these up into other specific batches)
- Ganax, Astral Hunter
- Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm
- Necroduality
- Scourge of Valkas
- Spellstutter Sprite
- Dragon Tempest
I'm not sure why the Scourge and Tempest aren't on the list, they used to be in the pre-batchified deck itself too, I'm beginning to think I've already had to limit myself even with this approach. Miirym is on its way there with the upcoming update of the list, sick card. Necroduality is too pricey for me, but an easy add for the budgetless player. Spellstutter is nice, I'll have to see if I can trade for one with a friend, not feeling like paying that price for it. Concerning Ganax, I considered it, but aside from the looping that @materpillar's list is famous for, is this strong enough? Remember, using this batching system I'm probably never going to be looping changelings at any rate.

Removal
- Reaper King
Too strong for my tastes

Ramp package
- Loam Dweller
- Grell Philosopher
Same as Miirym, really looking forward to try the Grell! My pods aren't always as artifact ramp filled as they could be, but it's a fun card either way. Loam Dweller is somewhat tricky, didn't make my cuts back when I had a 100 list. When is this good enough? When you've ramped two times with its trigger?

Recursion
- Lazav, the Multifarious
- The Scarab God
Lazav is a really cute one for the more graveyard-centered version, nice! Scarab boi is way out of my price range :P
Having gone through your suggestions, the fact that I'm missing some really obvious ones makes me think that I had to cut it down to 200 cards in total to actually make it still fit my deckbox! I probably favoured newer cards (crimson vow was last update) over the tried and true stuff like Dragon Tempest 'n Peer Pressure. So in the end I apparently did limit my batches somewhat @Elywood :angel:
Regarding your idea though, that feels more like fixed shells, as you'd probably have ramp, draw, and removal/wipes in the deck each time and thus having to limit those numbers. To alleviate that you could of course tune the shells towards specific gameplay options, so that they overlap very little. It's a viable alternative to what I'm doing, definitely more consistent! I like the variance of this approach though (and the fact that I have to cut less :p). I'd be interested in building such shells too though, but the end goal of this approach was to be greedy and try and play all the lovely diverse stuff that's out there, I'm not sure how well the other approach can reach that.

Lastly, I was able to play a game with this setup for the first time yesterday, but the deck was piloted by a friend of mine. Combining batches wasn't a lot of work with both him and I shuffling the necessary batches (we went with the graveyard-focused one). It functioned really well! By being able to set the bread n' butter stuff (ramp/removal/draw) to a specific amount you can also better influence the strength and speed of the deck. He managed to Maskwood Nexus + The World Tree his deck on the board for the win (stuff like Wayward Servant draining for what was quickly counted 58 damage or so) after most of our attention had to be spent on keeping another player in check. Given that my groups run little land removal, it did make me decide to cut the tree: a bit too much of a clock, with player removal being the only option. I guess I can use that slot for Murmuring Bosk :)
Remember: not everyone is intent on 'growing as a player', analysing their meta and adapting to it, etc. For some people, Magic is just another board game.

Decklists:
A boy and his dog: an adventure (Rograkh & Yoshimaru) | Storytelling, Jank, Cute
Averna, Roulette Croupier: Cascade Chaos | Cascade, Chaos, Group Choices
The Ur-Dragon Tribal Tribal | Randomized Batches, Diverse, Quirky
Zirda, Patron Goddess of Trash Artisanry | Trash for Treasure, Artifact Aristocrats, low-powered

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materpillar
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Post by materpillar » 1 year ago

Gentle Giant wrote:
1 year ago
Looking at some of the suggestions both of you do, this might be a good time to say that my playgroups are quite low-powered. Stuff like Coat of arms, Reaper King, and Liliana's Contract are a bit much (with some of the others also being borderline). Additionally, budget is a thing. Although the mana base suggests otherwise, my price range for "oof that's expensive, should I really pull the trigger on it?" is €3 to €5. Anything you see in the list that's more than that was acquired at a time when it was actually that low, in an older precon, or acquired through trade-ins for store credit when I was building a strong cube (hence the mana base).
I don't pay much attention to card prices. I mostly proxy personally. Sooooo... I'm just going to suggest cards. Myr Reservoir, Naban, Dean of Iteration, Azami, Lady of Scrolls, Giant's Grasp, Blood Speaker, Mark of the Oni, Herald's Horn, Vedalken Aethermage, Goblin Chirurgeon, Coveted Prize, Wirewood Symbiote
Mass board wipe you missed the coolest wrath Endemic Plague.
While definitely a fitting add, I do notice that this deck tends to build up boards of utility it'd rather not wipe away. What's your experience with the card as opposed to more asymmetrical ones like Crux of Fate?
Crux of Fate kills basically all of your non-Changeling utility creatures too. Sometimes you need a wrath to not die and that's more important than save a few creatures. Amoeboid Changeling → make The Ur-Dragon lose all creature types → Sac Amoeboid Changeling to Endemic Plague to kill everything but The Ur-Dragon just feels sooooooo fantastic. But yeah, I've cut every non-Silumgar, the Drifting Death wrath spell.

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