A Matter of Time Consumption

[Ardeyn]

So, this is about the Krark, the Thumbless & Sakashima of a Thousand Faces Deck in particular.
But also about time consumption during game play more generally.

Having played against said deck several times and having watched it in games on YT the novelty of it certainly has worn off. Whenever (one of) those commanders are out, it seems to take a comparatively exorbitant amount of time to get through its Turns: flipping coins - or using whatever method to determine the outcome of a spell cast - recasting, calculating, reflipping etc. With everyone just looking on, eyes glazing over, never certain if this orgy will have any result at all or win the game right away.
Tldr: it usually feels like a waste of everyone's time.
Or at least like the deck monopolizes the use of game time to a large extent. Especially, - in contrast to a full on (Infinite) combo or a Cratehoof overrun - because there's always the thought dance that it might not be over yet.

On a similar axis a card like Timesifter will shift a large swath of the game's time toward its caster since they came prepared for it. Often the game will be played between two players after its resolution, leaving the other two to hoping they will somehow get another turn in between. Since the effect (of allotting extra turns) is somewhat random it always leaves a sliver of hope. And this can drag on for a very long time.
Lighthouse Chronologist is similar, albeit more deterministic, and will not randomly exclude one or two players from the game for several turns. Though it does shift a large amount of playing time towards one player, which can be tedious if they just durdle around.

My meta is open to any strategy and plays rather high powered / optimized decks. Yet this deck has been a topic of debate lately.
The solution has become to kill its commanders as fast as possible.

What's your experience with decks and cards like this?
How do you feel about them?

Ardeyn

[TheGildedGoose]

Brevity is the soul of wit.

Don't waste my time.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Brevity is the soul of wit.

Don't waste my time.

Being concise matters, but some things need more explanation or depth to meet their fullest potential. Not all novels could have been short stories, but you can certainly take a short story and make a 3 hour movie out of it.

My point is, if you're monopolizing game time to do zany, impossible-elsewhere insanity a la tstorm's Zedruu, that's cool. But if you're dragging out non-deterministic combo lines when an A + B combo would have sufficed, I do resent that. What I really hate is when someone essentially takes a broken combo deck and then strips out the combo wincons to make the deck "fair". You still get all the 20 minute turns resulting in insurmountable advantage, but they can no longer end the game quickly after doing so. It's misery protracted, not misery lessened.

[Jemolk]

Being concise matters, but some things need more explanation or depth to meet their fullest potential. Not all novels could have been short stories, but you can certainly take a short story and make a 3 hour movie out of it.

My point is, if you're monopolizing game time to do zany, impossible-elsewhere insanity a la tstorm's Zedruu, that's cool. But if you're dragging out non-deterministic combo lines when an A + B combo would have sufficed, I do resent that. What I really hate is when someone essentially takes a broken combo deck and then strips out the combo wincons to make the deck "fair". You still get all the 20 minute turns resulting in insurmountable advantage, but they can no longer end the game quickly after doing so. It's misery protracted, not misery lessened.

I tried to do that last thing with Mairsil, the Pretender to make it lower power level. Then, when it went off, I realized I had accidentally built stax instead, and added the combo back in. Because you're right, that is worse.

[TheGildedGoose]

Being concise matters, but some things need more explanation or depth to meet their fullest potential. Not all novels could have been short stories, but you can certainly take a short story and make a 3 hour movie out of it.

My point is, if you're monopolizing game time to do zany, impossible-elsewhere insanity a la tstorm's Zedruu, that's cool. But if you're dragging out non-deterministic combo lines when an A + B combo would have sufficed, I do resent that. What I really hate is when someone essentially takes a broken combo deck and then strips out the combo wincons to make the deck "fair". You still get all the 20 minute turns resulting in insurmountable advantage, but they can no longer end the game quickly after doing so. It's misery protracted, not misery lessened.

To continue the metaphor, not all novels have to be Infinite Jest. Maybe it's a personal failing of my attention or patience but watching someone slowly mentally process something isn't my idea of a good time.

I don't mind lengthy plays as long as it isn't accompanied by slow play. It's like going to an open mic night and watching someone nervously stumble and stutter through their set. If it's compelling interaction, fine. If it takes a few moments to sequence, sure. But taking a long turn to generate value instead of outright winning the game is exhausting, especially if it's something they can do every turn. Chulane, Teller of Tales, Korvold, Fae-Cursed King, Yarok, the Desecrated, and, of course, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim are particularly guilty of big, splashy, non-deterministic plays that make my eyes glaze over. Krark/Sakashima are probably very similar.

[materpillar]

I personally scoop fairly aggressively to furiously masturbatory durdle decks. Once a deck like that gets to the point it's securely the archenemy and I usually just concede. I'm definitely losing, games that were still winnable but I have finite amounts of time left to live and I want to spend as little of that time as possible watching Chulane, Teller of Tales resolve triggers. I've got a friend who has an Amareth, the Lustrous that wins with manifest creature beatdowns after very soft-locking the board. Sure I'll technically have outs to his board, but I don't want to play 3-5 minutes over the coarse of the next hour hoping I'll top-deck one of my two outs while he has 10-20 minute turns spewing value.

I have a pretty decent rule of thumb that if someone has more mana than the rest of the table combined (roughly), draws more cards than the rest of the table the game (roughly) and their engine isn't particularly fragile then I will concede. This has gotten fairly salty responses on several occasions when I concede 4-5 turns before I would literally be dead, but the writing on the wall is plain as day to me.

[Toshi]

One of the worst offenders of time consumption are storm type decks that only have a very thin number of outs to win the game. If your only plan is to take 20 minute turns to dig for a single Thassa's Oracle et al, let me know in advance and i'll play another pod.
I don't wanna see anyone playing with themselves without the means to go off, nah mean?
For the same reason my non-infinite stormy decks - namely Grenzo, Dungeon Warden, Talrand, Sky Summoner & Zada, Hedron Grinder - all have redundant pieces to smash face or drain the table, as not to drag it on for too long.
Since i haven't wasted everyone's time up until then, my friends are usually chill about me playing out game-winning turns. I will announce when i see the window to win without interruption and either we're collectively interested in the number of digits Zada, Hedron Grinder can amass - or we're not and just shuffle up.
Most of us treat these situations the same, resulting in only few potentially annoying decks turning out as such.

What I really hate is when someone essentially takes a broken combo deck and then strips out the combo wincons to make the deck "fair".

My god, this.

This has gotten fairly salty responses on several occasions when I concede 4-5 turns before I would literally be dead, but the writing on the wall is plain as day to me.

A former member of our playgroup was head over heels in love with winning through PW Ults and hated us scooping when it was plain to see.
Yes, we get it Jace, Architect of Thought Ult usually means you win. No, we don't wanna see you sifting through 3+ decks you might not know well enough to pick a spell inside 5 mins.

[Crazy Monkey]

I think that my group is a bit of an outlier, because virtually all of us have decks built around time consuming mechanics. We have 2 krarkashima decks, various cascade storm decks, Zada storm, and just generally a lot of high action-taken count strategies. To make matters more complex, those decks aren't on par with each other so they're rarely in the same game. As with most things, the important bit is communication and (pre pandemic) not pulling these decks out if we have a player who has not played with us before. That said, even then when we have those decks we try to play quickly, and take as many shortcuts as the group agrees to. In the krarkashima example, there is an app that does auto selection of krark's thumb choices and lets you batch the flips which can be a large time saver.

I think the most important bit that lets it work for us is that we all have a large rotation of decks, so we're not impacted by this every game. Additionally, because we play as fast as possible in games other than in cedh level games; we end up with a fair number of misplays. This means that there are usually more opportunities to interact. I know several members of our group consider those games where it was 99% lost and turned it around (or had it turned around on them) as some of their favorite/most memorable games.

I'm also definitely guilty of depowering decks by reducing wincons or adding complexity, but those decks don't get played that often. Medomai the Ageless was once an especially egregious example of this (superfriends build was...unnecessary). Generally, my fix for this is to reduce the number of non-central actions to take and to shortcut as much as possible, but I recognize that taking too much of people's time is not acceptable. I'm fortunate that my group shares playstyles with me and we enjoy/tolerate each other's turn for time monopolization.

From the other perspectives here, I'm less certain that the methods I have been using to minimize the time consumption are sufficient. Based on the descriptions I've given, what would your reaction to this be? Would you be a player who prefers me to stick to the more straightforward decks (we have several players who just don't want to play against these decks) or would the effort to reduce time consumption be sufficient? If insufficient, what other (if any) actions would you prefer?

[onering]

Brevity is the soul of wit.

Polonius, who the quote comes from, was also a long winded moron.

[Mookie]

I would say it is important to be respectful of your opponents' time. EDH games can be long, and it feels bad if one player is monopolizing a majority of the playtime, either because they're playing a deck that has long turns, or just because they're a slow player. It's fine if you have a long turn occasionally, especially if you're doing something to try to win the game. Big spells like Villainous Wealth and Genesis Wave can take a long time to resolve.... but they also are going to significantly push the game in the direction of a conclusion. On the other hand, if all of your turns are long, or you're spending a long time doing something that isn't meaningfully progressing the game (tutoring without knowing what you're fetching is a prime example of this), then that feels like you are wasting the table's time.

As for the examples you brought up (coin flipping and Timesifter)... yeah, not cards I'm really a fan of. Timesifter in particular is miserable because it is nondeterministic, which makes it difficult to scoop to. I haven't played against Krark, the Thumbless, so can't speak to that experience, but I would feel rather frustrated if the player wasn't able to resolve their coin flips in a reasonable amount of time.

....I do generally give storm decks a pass on this front because it is rather rare for them to storm off more than once per game - my experience is that the setup turns are usually pretty short, while the big storm turn either wins outright or consumes enough resources that it isn't viable to have a second one.

[Toshi]

Based on the descriptions I've given, what would your reaction to this be?

I think you're all set and cozy.
You have a precise idea of your groups' mindset, are aware of rotating deck styles and seem to be evaluating yourself plenty. There's not much more to ask for tbh.

And you got me thinking of a few things i should do more consistently myself. While i keep going back and forth between possible time hogging decks and straight forward ones, i sometimes underestimate the stress some lighter deck concepts put me under anyways. Not only does that prolong turns and forces more misplays, it wears my out of a nights stretch.
So for rounds after exhausting ones, i could be more consistent in picking actual light ones.

[DirkGently]

Brevity is the soul of wit.

Don't waste my time.

Stop it! Stop wasting my time!

(If memory serves)

I try to be very conscious of when my decks become time-monopolising and play as quickly as possible. Nothing makes me feel guiltier than monopolising the clock because I know how irritating it is from the other side. It drives me insane when people don't seem to even notice how much time they're taking. Have some self-awareness for god's sake.

[toctheyounger]

I scoop to decks that intentionally do this, and I try not to make decks that do it either. I got a kid, my time is precious.

People work on different time frames and thats fine and all, but goldfishing is just so tedious. And really, if thats what someone wants to do they don't need an audience. And that's what it is, too - were no longer active, were just watching and waiting for a result.

The analogy that always springs to mind here, as non-PG and gross analogy as it is, is sex vs masturbation. No one else needs to be there if someone wants to jerk off, so if thats what you wanna do, if I'm not included, imma head out, don't waste my time.

Also, interesting timing on this. The Spike Feeders just posted this video about slow gameplay -
Its not entirely pertinent for goldfishing, more around decision paralysis and making your plays efficient, but there's some points that apply.

[Treamayne]

4/5 Player Solitaire is (or should be) very much a Rule 0 Discussion. When talking pre-game, I like to ask "how long is your average turn 5?" and "how long is your average player-killing/game-winning turn?"

I feel these two questions, if answered honestly, give a decent idea of how insular a deck will be on an average (not early set-up) turn, and how long a push to win might take (such as the 10 minute~ish difference between "tutor for the win" and "loot for the win").

Another pre-game I like to mention for specific decks is what kind of shortcuts I may want (and how they feel about it), and what, if any, they might want.
Example: playing my Progenitus Hydra deck - I might say pre-game "I'm running multiple proliferate effects. Unless you object I will usually shortcut at end of turn by saying "I'll proliferate X times" and if no response the next player can start their turn while I deal with counters."

[kraus911]

I totally understand making a cool complex machine of a deck that you want to see perform in a real game, and I think Treamayne has it in a nutshell, Rule 0 that deck. Are people okay with you trotting that deck out for one game to see how it goes? If not, don't be offended if other people want to play too, lol.

I recently played 1 v 1 with a friend who had a cedh deck he wanted to learn how to play. A lot of it was watching him work his way through the deck, but I was down for it and knew what I was getting into.

[Myllior]

If you want to take long turns, by all means go for it, but do something engaging; make sure the time is being put to good use. I'd much rather see a 10 minute turn involving Etali plus Boots (hitting 5 spells) > Oblivion Sower (opponent's) > Mnemonic Deluge on Mind's Desire for 30 copies > Mnemonic Betrayal > Underworld Breach > Dark Ritual > Aetherflux Reservoir (opponent's) > More Dark Rituals > Win, than a 2 minute turn involving ticking up some planeswalkers, thinking of going to combat, not attacking anyone anyway, then passing. Quick decisions keep things going and keep things fun; taking a long time to do nothing does not.

[Ardeyn]

[...]
My point is, if you're monopolizing game time to do zany, impossible-elsewhere insanity a la tstorm's Zedruu, that's cool. But if you're dragging out non-deterministic combo lines when an A + B combo would have sufficed, I do resent that. What I really hate is when someone essentially takes a broken combo deck and then strips out the combo wincons to make the deck "fair". You still get all the 20 minute turns resulting in insurmountable advantage, but they can no longer end the game quickly after doing so. It's misery protracted, not misery lessened.

We used to have these kinds of plays by the people that came from playgroups that eschewed infinite combos. However, they've since embraced the thought that it's better to just end the game than to create an even more insurmountable advantage turn by turn while not quite being able to win in a timely manner.
I don't feel like long turns every once in a while are a problem

[...]
I don't mind lengthy plays as long as it isn't accompanied by slow play. It's like going to an open mic night and watching someone nervously stumble and stutter through their set. If it's compelling interaction, fine. If it takes a few moments to sequence, sure. But taking a long turn to generate value instead of outright winning the game is exhausting, especially if it's something they can do every turn. Chulane, Teller of Tales, Korvold, Fae-Cursed King, Yarok, the Desecrated, and, of course, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim are particularly guilty of big, splashy, non-deterministic plays that make my eyes glaze over. Krark/Sakashima are probably very similar.

With the commanders mentioned at least they usually advance the game in some way. With Krarkashima it seems to end in: nothing at all happened / changed during that five minute turn of laboriously flipping coins and calculating stuff just as often as in: a game winning, brain twisting 10 Minute episode of rituals, card draw and damage spells.

I think that my group is a bit of an outlier, because virtually all of us have decks built around time consuming mechanics. We have 2 krarkashima decks, various cascade storm decks, Zada storm, and just generally a lot of high action-taken count strategies. To make matters more complex, those decks aren't on par with each other so they're rarely in the same game. As with most things, the important bit is communication and (pre pandemic) not pulling these decks out if we have a player who has not played with us before. That said, even then when we have those decks we try to play quickly, and take as many shortcuts as the group agrees to. In the krarkashima example, there is an app that does auto selection of krark's thumb choices and lets you batch the flips which can be a large time saver.

I think the most important bit that lets it work for us is that we all have a large rotation of decks, so we're not impacted by this every game. Additionally, because we play as fast as possible in games other than in cedh level games; we end up with a fair number of misplays. This means that there are usually more opportunities to interact. I know several members of our group consider those games where it was 99% lost and turned it around (or had it turned around on them) as some of their favorite/most memorable games.

I'm also definitely guilty of depowering decks by reducing wincons or adding complexity, but those decks don't get played that often. Medomai the Ageless was once an especially egregious example of this (superfriends build was...unnecessary). Generally, my fix for this is to reduce the number of non-central actions to take and to shortcut as much as possible, but I recognize that taking too much of people's time is not acceptable. I'm fortunate that my group shares playstyles with me and we enjoy/tolerate each other's turn for time monopolization.

From the other perspectives here, I'm less certain that the methods I have been using to minimize the time consumption are sufficient. Based on the descriptions I've given, what would your reaction to this be? Would you be a player who prefers me to stick to the more straightforward decks (we have several players who just don't want to play against these decks) or would the effort to reduce time consumption be sufficient? If insufficient, what other (if any) actions would you prefer?

I think it's fine to take some long(er) turns during a game, especially if not one person alone monopolizes gametime and - as others have mentioned - something interesting happens during those turns. I my group we do have storm decks, convoluted Inalla Spellseeker Combos, stax decks, Yuriko turns etc. and none of those has spawned any discussions. People play as quick and concise as possible with everyone taking some time every once in a while to figure out a game winning line in some complicated situation for example. Complex turns can be quite enjoyable to follow; I even found it interesting the first two times I played against Krarkashima. However, this deck in particular is so random in a way and so tedious to get through its maybe-winning turns that it's just boring. Using the Krakulator makes it anticlimactic on top of it all.
So, in general I would probably enjoy games in your group - especially knowing what I'm up to and the manner you seem to go about it.
Seems like you handle this quite well.

Having thought about this topic more and having read all the opinions in this thread, I guess, I should/would just decline to play against the Krarkashimas of this world, since this seems to rub me in the wrong way.

Ardeyn

[TheGildedGoose]

Brevity is the soul of wit.

Don't waste my time.

Stop it! Stop wasting my time!

Still waiting on my pizza rolls.

[DirkGently]

Still waiting on my pizza rolls.

Dammit, now I'm rewatching all of them lol. Still so good.