Non-Basic Land Soft Hosers

[PrimevalCommander]

RCotD topic this week was Fetchlands. Some love them, like me, some hate them. Most everyone agrees they are rediculously powerful enablers for many strategies and synergies. With land destruction soft-banned by the social contract, and strong hosers heavily frowned upon as well. How do we balance the bane of casual tables that is green ramp and non-basic proliferation. Is this a problem at all, maybe not for some metas, but green ramp is a very strong part of commander and perfect mana allows more colors and more options for powerful cards with no drawback.

I suspect it may be difficult to design soft-hosers for non-basic lands because of how prolific they are and how strict the social contract is at keeping them sacred. Honestly I don't think I'd get too salty (maybe) if I saw a blood moon or back to basics in a relatively strong casual game. Don't bust it out against my low power theme decks or precons please! But I think white is getting on the right train of thought for soft hosers of other annoying things other colors do, like tutor Archivist of Oghma , draw Smothering Tithe , or cast lots of spells Trouble in Pairs.

This isn't a "what cards currently hose lands" thread, but I would encourage discussion around the types of land hosers available and how Wizards might evolve these types of cards to balance out all the turbo ramping that green decks are so fond of.

Current standouts: Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon and Back to Basics

Tap-Hosers: Root Maze.. help me out with some others

What I'm thinking might be a good design space would be looking at things like Smuggler's Share , Smothering Tithe , Trouble in Pairs when designing a soft hoser for non-basic lands. Lifegain is the typically seen as one of the weakest archetypes becuase life totals are already high, so players build to either ignore them altogether, or are prepared to tackle high lift totals with explosive plays. But because there are so many non-basics in a 4 player pod, lifegain might be the only balanced option for rewarding you for opponents making mana off non-basic lands.

Azorious River Authority
Creature - Cleric Advisor
2/2
Non-Basic lands your opponent's control enter the battlefield tapped.
Whenever an opponent taps a non-basic land for mana, you gain 1 life.

What ideas do you have for some designs to help stem the onslaught of ramp and fetches? What cards already exist that you like in this space?

[ISBPathfinder]

Deep Gnome Terramancer does a great job of punishing fetchlands. Turning each fetch into +1 land for you is really good and I like that it doesn't come with the super feels bad of some of the other ones and it works against most green ramp too (most being the ones that don't just +1 your land drops for the turn).

I have had some games where I play it early in response to ramp and get like 3+ lands from him which is insane for white. The fact that you don't have to have less lands is really odd design for white which has that stapled on most of the rest of this style of effect.

Archon of Emeria and Thalia, Heretic Cathar can also tax fetchlands to an extreme to the point that it feels very painful to resolve them without entirely stopping a player from access. Some of the problem with this style of card though is that hatebears aren't very efficient at killing players in commander so the decks they fit into is sometimes very awkward.

[Treamayne]

As I've said before, what I would really like to start seeing is cards that are not symmetrical. The problem with cards like Blood Moon and Back to Basics is that they hurt the casual deck/mana screwed player far more than the rampant ramper.^(tm) Whereas something like:

• An enchant player curse version of Blood Moon
• An enchant player curse version of Hall of Gemstone
• A version of Smallpox that only hits opponents with more lands than you, more cards in hand than you, etc.
• A cantrip instant version of Ghost Quarter (which suffers from losing a land to remove a trouble non-basic)
• A progression "cost" like "Whenever a land enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, gain life equal to the number of lands they control" (so it affects rampers more than regular play - making decisions like "is playing my 12th land worth giving 12 life?" hopefully relevant)
• An anti-landfall trigger Keyword that give you bonuses for lands the opponents ETB (this would have as much design space as Landfall, and be even more splashable -e.g. Tired Tracker | | 2/2 | Landcrash-Whenever an opponent has a land ETB, Investigate")

Natural Balance is a good example, punish the rampers and help the mana screwed (but only really viable on-curve)

[yeti1069]

[*] A cantrip instant version of Ghost Quarter (which suffers from losing a land to remove a trouble non-basic)

Field of Ruin and Demolition Field are basically Ghost Quarter cantrips. I wish they didn't cost 2 mana to activate, but they're pretty reasonable. Demo is obviously better, since it isn't also ramping your other 2 opponents.

Spectrum Sentinel gains life for your opponents playing nonbasics. I run it in my Prosper deck to mitigate some of the hate the deck draws, and it's decent--often gaining upwards of 10 life in the first few turns, then also functions as a great blocker vs most commanders and other stuff.

A cheaper (2-3 mana) version of Polluted Bonds that only pings for nonbasic land drops would be good.

Any of the effects that cause nonbasics to enter tapped functionally negates all the value in playing more expensive lands.

[Dunadain]

I think it's erroneous to blame Ramp's power on the absence of MLD, MLD wasn't really designed to hate on ramp, nor does it do a particularly good god at it. MLD is best when used proactively.

Generally, I'd suggest becoming more aggressive. Hate cards are finicky in 4 player format with no sideboards. Beaters always know how to turn sideways.

[Treamayne]

[*] A cantrip instant version of Ghost Quarter (which suffers from losing a land to remove a trouble non-basic)

Field of Ruin and Demolition Field are basically Ghost Quarter cantrips. I wish they didn't cost 2 mana to activate, but they're pretty reasonable. Demo is obviously better, since it isn't also ramping your other 2 opponents.

Understood, and I apologize for not being clear - by "Instant" I meant card type, not timing. More like:

Instant
Destroy target non-basic land, it's controller may search their library for a basic land and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle
Draw a card

(Disclaimer: Example not balanced)
The problem with Ghost Quarter and company is that if you are the non-ramper/mana screwed player then losing a land is not worth punishing the ramper. The Fields from your example helps, but we really need a spell versions of that effect too

Other thoughts for my list:

• A leyline that prevents sacrificing lands as a cost (so it can come down before turn 1)
• A non-basic land version of Equilibrium - so Opponents have to return a non-basic to hand when playing a nonbasic if they control more non-basics than you do
• Stone Rain with Split Second for non-basic lands
• Colored versions of Demolition Field for enemy colors - e. g. Demoltion Bay | Island | , sacrifice <this>: Destroy target Mountain or Forest. You and that land's controller each may search your library for a basic land and ETB tapped.

[PrimevalCommander]

A cheaper (2-3 mana) version of Polluted Bonds that only pings for nonbasic land drops would be good.

Here we go. A 3 mana Polluted Bonds triggering off non-basics could add some real pain to those greedy rampers like myself Good for aristocrat decks want to do the life drain plan and don't care about combat. Also pads your life total for black draw effects.

I also need an asymetrical Burning Earth or Manabarbs|27162 for my red burn deck.

What could we do for a catch up card in white that triggers off nonbasic lands tapping, or activating non-mana abilities? We have so many little trinket tokens, but also so many ways to abuse disposable trinket tokens. Map tokens or a creature that explores sounds good, but getting 10+ triggers of anything beyond lifegain seems overpowered. Put it on a Serra Angel to boost the mana value and make the body of the creature somewhat useful?

Giving all opponents nonbasics Exert, but that sounds too mean, see Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger.

[pokken]

land destruction being "banned" by social contract has zilch to do with land ramp strategies. if anything, Life from the Loam // Strip Mine / Armageddon being social contracted out is a net negative keeping lands from blowing the game away. If it was socially acceptable to float mana, Jokulhaups and then Splendid Reclamation lands would be far more broken than it is.

--

As far as land hosers, I think worrying about land ramp as a problem in the format is fairly pointless; artifacts and treasures are vastly more problematic in today's landscape.

--

Whatever tools we come up with I think they should be the permissive variet; Deep Gnome Terramancer is a fantastic example of design @ISBPathfinder puts forth that I've had good success with. Some of the full on catchup spells have also been great for me, like Scholarship Sponsor (the problem with that specifically is the sequencing usually means you're the last to take advantage of it, so making it flash would be very nice:D )

In general I find that just catching up to ramp players is the most fun option, vs. trying to prevent them from playing. Making %$#% enter the battlefield tapped is a nightmare for everyone to keep track of and people really suck at it.

[duducrash]

How would you feel about



Whenever an ability of a nonbasic land is activated this enchantment deals 2 damage to that lands controler ?

[yeti1069]

Understood, and I apologize for not being clear - by "Instant" I meant card type, not timing. More like:

Instant
Destroy target non-basic land, it's controller may search their library for a basic land and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle
Draw a card

(Disclaimer: Example not balanced)
The problem with Ghost Quarter and company is that if you are the non-ramper/mana screwed player then losing a land is not worth punishing the ramper. The Fields from your example helps, but we really need a spell versions of that effect too

Other thoughts for my list:

• A leyline that prevents sacrificing lands as a cost (so it can come down before turn 1)
• A non-basic land version of Equilibrium - so Opponents have to return a non-basic to hand when playing a nonbasic if they control more non-basics than you do
• Stone Rain with Split Second for non-basic lands
• Colored versions of Demolition Field for enemy colors - e. g. Demoltion Bay | Island | , sacrifice <this>: Destroy target Mountain or Forest. You and that land's controller each may search your library for a basic land and ETB tapped.

I don't know anyone who would run the instant version--I never run into Stone Rain, or any of the green or black 2-mana land destruction spells. Making it a colorless instant that cantrips, but requires colorless mana specifically, does what? What problem is this addressing? If it's problematic nonbasics, like Gaea's Cradle, you want a low-overhead option (like Demolition Field) you cans lot into every deck, and not care too much about the times it doesn't do anything. If it's to punish players for running a lot of nonbasics, this doesn't really do that unless they're on 0 basics (or so few that you've a decent shot of leaving them without a card to fetch).

A cheaper (2-3 mana) version of Polluted Bonds that only pings for nonbasic land drops would be good.

Here we go. A 3 mana Polluted Bonds triggering off non-basics could add some real pain to those greedy rampers like myself Good for aristocrat decks want to do the life drain plan and don't care about combat. Also pads your life total for black draw effects.

I also need an asymetrical Burning Earth or Manabarbs|27162 for my red burn deck.

Burning Earth is already (mostly) asymmetrical--you run Mountains while everyone else gets hurt for nonbasics.

[yeti1069]

How would you feel about



Whenever an ability of a nonbasic land is activated this enchantment deals 2 damage to that lands controler ?

You have Burning Earth for most of what this is doing, and red has a ton of punishers for activating stuff that isn't mana.

[TheGildedGoose]

In general I find that just catching up to ramp players is the most fun option, vs. trying to prevent them from playing. Making %$#% enter the battlefield tapped is a nightmare for everyone to keep track of and people really suck at it.

I dunno, I think Root Maze effects for nonbasics are great tools that should be utilized more. Land decks are primarily powerful because of the Exploration + Crucible of Worlds interaction, and being able to interact with that while also being meaningfully disruptive to the rest of the table is huge.

Welcome back.

[folding_music]

check out this badass: Dryad Sophisticate! really makes you think twice!

"reasonable" nonbasic hate bops people who are using karoos and stuff, people who can afford the good stuff aren't going to notice. ruination is more fair and it makes people who quit when they don't get their way quit lol

[Cyberium]

I like Mana Web as a way to host multicolor decks. It forces opponents to spend their mana within the same phase and hinders their instant-speed strategies.

[Mookie]

I've had luck with Primal Order in the past - it's pretty much a strictly better Burning Earth. Wave of Vitriol is also quite nice.

More broadly, I think that cards that hate on ramp and cards that hate on nonbasics tend to be need to look different. Most ramp spells fetch basics, which means something like Ruination will, awkwardly, often leave the ramp player's Cultivate and Boundless Realms untouched. I would even argue that a lack of ramp options often forces people to run more nonbasics so they have enough fixing.

...I do like the idea of there being more cards that make lands enter tapped. They don't affect budget players playing lands that naturally enter tapped, but they double-tap fetchlands. Otherwise, I think catch-up ramp that rewards players for playing fewer lands tends to be preferable to land destruction - it's generally better for cards to push the game towards a conclusion, instead of slowing things down.

[DirkGently]

Hate cards suck in commander honestly. Not just because sometimes they're dead or not very effective, but also because you can't decide who gets screwed. If someone with a ton of nonbasics is way behind, nonbasic hate isn't really going to help the situation.

As regards nonbasics specifically, there are a couple forces that pretty much ensure the dynamic sucks. 1) nearly every deck benefits from having a lot of nonbasics (excepts for coffer decks etc). 2) the nonbasic hate that actually gets played tends to be pretty brutal, but there aren't many pieces of it. This means that most people are going to play nonbasics for the reliable benefits of fixing and/or utility, and then every once in a while get sucker punched by ruination or whatever. There isn't a lot of "soft" nonbasic hosing, and people don't play it anyway because, as long as you're going to cut your nonbasics and play nonbasic hate, you might as well play the meanest stuff. It's a very feast-or-famine dynamic and it doesn't create good play experiences.

I think @ISBPathfinder was on to something with cards that get extra benefits for you when opponents play nonbasics, rather than hating on that player. People are a lot more likely to want to play those sorts of cards I think.

Another fix would be cards that are good in their own right, like how Trouble in Pairs hoses extra turns. Take a similar card, but instead of hosing extra turns, add "when a nonbasic land is tapped for mana, put a stun counter on it". Now people might actually run softer nonbasic hate, and people playing nonbasics won't feel like they lost the game to one 3-4mv card.

There's also the option to give more incentives to monocolor and basics. Bit tricky since intense color costs can, let's be real, be paid by multicolor decks fairly easily. But stuff like Emeria, the Sky Ruin and Cabal Coffers have always been good examples of payoffs for going deep on basic lands and fewer colors.

Will wotc do those things? Eh, probably not. Most commander players just like playing 3c decks and don't want things to get in the way of that being viable.

[RxPhantom]

I know this isn't what the OP is going for, but I really like Primal Order.

[NZB2323]

Smuggler's Share, Polluted Bonds, Burning Earth, Deep Gnome Terramancer, Thalia, Heretic Cathar, Thalia and The Gitrog Monster, Primal Order, Stranglehold, Opposition Agent, Trailblazer's Boots, Angel of Jubilation…I feel like the hate is out there.

[3drinks]

We just need more Cleansing Wildfire effects. The hypothetical cc instant nonbasic kill + cantrip is a good start from this thread honestly. That cost is harsh and would absolutely not be splashable. A sorcery version of Uncontrolled Infestation would also be nice. A 3mvMwonvuli Acid-Moss would slap. More people playing Yasharn, Implacable Earth would go a long ways, as well as remembering that Gaddock Teeg is a legitimate magic card.

Realistically, if we got a rakdos or gruul commander at the three drop with the Ward of Bones text.

I like Mana Web as a way to host multicolor decks. It forces opponents to spend their mana within the same phase and hinders their instant-speed strategies.

I concur, Mana Web is great because it's not colour locked and it's -1 mv over War's Toll. Similarly, Tsabo's Web.

[Ruiner]

A sorcery version of Uncontrolled Infestation would also be nice.

Its not exactly the same since it's a different color (same CMC) and can hit basics, but there is always Sinkhole.

[BaronCappuccino]

I like the suggestions along the lines of white's triggered catch-up abilities, but I'd probably vary the idea by color.

White - If you do it, I do it. Just as suggested.
Black - If you would do it, sac a land as an additional cost.
Red - If you do it, take damage equal to the number of lands you control.
Blue - If you do it, table votes between extra turn or gain control of each land that entered battlefield this turn.
Green - Nothing.

[3drinks]

A sorcery version of Uncontrolled Infestation would also be nice.

Its not exactly the same since it's a different color (same CMC) and can hit basics, but there is always Sinkhole.

Right. Still just one card, we need more of them. As well, more people playing From the Ashes & Wave of Vitriol. Remove the imaginary stigma from MLD and stop demonizing strats that people are weak to and don't want to "deal" with.

[Dunadain]

I've been staying out of this thread largely because I fundamentally disagree with most of the people here on land hate (I love you @3drinks but I am glad you aren't in my playgroup XD).

I will say though, I'd be stoked to see another Demolition Field or Wasteland variant that exiles lands instead of destroys them. You usually need to hit Field of the Dead/Maze's End decks with the one-two punch of targeted land destruction into graveyard hate. Otherwise, they'll probably get the land back in the very next turn cycle.

A tech land that does both would be much-appreciated.

[PrimevalCommander]

The only cards I am currently running as "ramp punishers" are Deep Gnome Terramancer... and thats it. Going to seriously look into Burning Earth for my burn deck, but I test Manabarbs first since I already have that one.

With nonbasic lands being critical for fixing mana, even in budget decks as mentioned, it is hard to create a card that will help mitigate the power of super ramp decks while not dunking on the budget guys just trying to color fix. Looking in the decklist sub there are 4 lands decks in the top 10 threads. So plenty of people here recognize the wonders and power of Fetches + Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds.

Lands have such a small attack surface, how do we widen the attack surface of those abusing the lack of good land interaction, while not making play experiences miserable for the rest of the table? There might not be a way, since anything continuous that grants you a building advantage as your opponents ramp harder will be overly beneficial to the caster. And how do you make the card not useless when there are no green decks at the table? This reminds me of some of the color-specific cards like Carpet of Flowers. High ceiling but low floor, not everyone's cup of tea.

Damping Sphere is pretty cool, but a bit staxy. I really like Trouble in Pairs, and it seems so do a lot of people with it's debut price point. I'll be watching this card closely. I honestly surprised it is not capped at "once per turn" like every other white card draw.

Enchantment
At the beginning of each end step create a number of treasures equal to half the number of nonbasic lands your opponents tapped for mana this turn rounded down.

staple or trash?
Maybe as a 44 flying lifelink angel at ?

[Mookie]

Every hate effect can be made playable in Legacy / Modern by throwing it on a 2/2 for 2 and adding enough lines of text. See Eidolon of the Great Revel, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, and Orcish Bowmasters. I'll argue similarly for EDH, although in that case it probably needs to be on a land - see Demolition Field, Homeward Path, and Scavenger Grounds. 'Can we push this card enough to be playable' isn't the question - it's 'how do we make this actually push the format in the desired direction, and not just go in every deck'. Hullbreacher, Deathrite Shaman, and Wrenn and Six are all cards that were played not as tech cards against card draw / graveyard / small creature decks, but because they were strong cards on their own... and ended up warping EDH / Modern / Legacy as a result before they were banned.

IMO, land-based problems fall into one of three categories: having too much mana, having too easy fixing, and having individually powerful lands. Deep Gnome Terramancer is nice against ramp, but does little to shut down 5C decks or Cabal Coffers / Field of the Dead / etc. Nonbasic hate is good against the latter two categories, but does little against ramp strategies. Targeted removal like Strip Mine is great against the utility lands (assuming no recursion), but weak against ramp and situational against fixing.

...anyway, I'll throw out the following card designs to address each of these problems, respectively:

• a land with ': add . If an opponent controls five or more lands, instead add ' (reverse Temple of the False God)
• a land with ', : Choose an opponent. Add one mana of each color that a land that player controls could produce.' (reverse Cabal Coffers // super Exotic Orchard)
• a land with ', exile ~: choose a nonbasic land. Exile it if its controller controls four or more nonbasic lands. Draw a card.' (super Tectonic Edge)

I won't claim these are necessarily balanced, but certainly an interesting thought experiment for how to target each of those problem areas - cards that are playable in a broad variety of decks and good against what they are targeting, but neither useless nor oppressive when they aren't active.