Goad: how annoying is it?

[kirkusjones]

Thinking about building a goad-centric deck. Is Marisi, Breaker of the Coil just the flat out best option?

But before I mess around with a decklist, I want to talk about the mechanic in general. Is it worth it? Is it good, or just going to annoy my opponents into pointing as much damage in my direction as possible?

I know Slicer, Hired Muscle // Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist is a beast, but the mechanic feels hard to evaluate in a vacuum.

Thoughts? Opinions? Anecdotes? Gimme whatcha got.

[Chromaticus]

I have a background deck with Popular Entertainer — I like having a splash of goad, versus all goad all the time like Marisi, Breaker of the Coil. Vengeful Ancestor is pretty sweet, as is Firkraag, Cunning Instigator.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Goad is very strong in the early/mid game in a combat-oriented meta with diminishing returns as players die over the course of the game. The real problem with goad is that some types of decks don't present good goad targets or don't even really play many creatures at all. I also think you ought to consider how exactly you intend to capitalize on Goad beyond just shunting random attackers here and there. Are you trying to wipe people repeatedly with Lightmine Field and Powerstone Minefield? Trying to gain a bunch of life with Righteous Cause? Play punishing combat tricks like Fight to the Death? Give everyone dangerous attackers with Life of the Party, Varchild's War-Riders and Rite of the Raging Storm? What's the plan?

EDIT: to respond more directly to the thread's title though, the only goad card I find irksome is Disrupt Decorum. That card kills me all the freaking time because I never have blockers and I can't even kamikaze myself into its caster to die with honor. Good card generally. but basically a meta buster against me and whatever I'm playing.

[kirkusjones]

Goad is very strong in the early/mid game in a combat-oriented meta with diminishing returns as players die over the course of the game. The real problem with goad is that some types of decks don't present good goad targets or don't even really play many creatures at all. I also think you ought to consider how exactly you intend to capitalize on Goad beyond just shunting random attackers here and there. Are you trying to wipe people repeatedly with Lightmine Field and Powerstone Minefield? Trying to gain a bunch of life with Righteous Cause? Play punishing combat tricks like Fight to the Death? Give everyone dangerous attackers with Life of the Party, Varchild's War-Riders and Rite of the Raging Storm? What's the plan?

EDIT: to respond more directly to the thread's title though, the only goad card I find irksome is Disrupt Decorum. That card kills me all the freaking time because I never have blockers and I can't even kamikaze myself into its caster to die with honor. Good card generally. but basically a meta buster against me and whatever I'm playing.

Still thinking. I had some goad critters in my The Beamtown Bullies deck, but I'm taking them out to load up on self-cycling beef. I like the idea of the mechanic and creature giveaway is fun, but closing games seems tough and I'm not sure that I want to build another deck just to annoy my playgroup. They love creatures and combat, so it feels like goad would do work, just not sure what the right jumping off point would be.

I think I'm just bored and procrastinating on stuff I should be doing, honestly.

[pokken]

I think Goad is fine as long as it's not Thantis, the Warweaver, christ that's abominable to play against

[ISBPathfinder]

I have played against a few Firkraag, Cunning Instigator decks and it can be really annoying. The list I played against was very specific in that they tried playing a lot of tempo stuff and it really reminded me a bit of a Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration kind of idea from old school modern (no clue if thats still a deck nor not).

The issue is a lot of times Goad kind of functions in a way that is actively killing opponents while telling them they have to kill each other. Its possible that others don't find it annoying but I found that I often targeted them a lot with effects until they essentially were no longer a threat. I don't care that its forcing me to attack but if I am getting hit by that player each turn while being forced to attack others I am going to use a lot of my interaction to try to make them stop it.

The other problem I have with Goad is more generic in that it makes an assumption that your opponents plan to win via combat. If your opponents don't it can be a lot more hit or miss based on what their deck actually does.

[ironic gesture]

The issue is a lot of times Goad kind of functions in a way that is actively killing opponents while telling them they have to kill each other. Its possible that others don't find it annoying but I found that I often targeted them a lot with effects until they essentially were no longer a threat. I don't care that its forcing me to attack but if I am getting hit by that player each turn while being forced to attack others I am going to use a lot of my interaction to try to make them stop it.

The other problem I have with Goad is more generic in that it makes an assumption that your opponents plan to win via combat. If your opponents don't it can be a lot more hit or miss based on what their deck actually does.

I've been playing a Marisi deck for years now (and enjoy the heck out of it). Mine is built to fit my play style: controlling with hatebears and answers. But like many decks, it's not for every meta. In a combat heavy meta, you run the risk of having your opponents have a bad play experience unless they're skilled players who run plenty of interaction and can work together if they perceive you as the threat. Additionally, if you play in a combat-lite meta, lol your deck doesn't do anything. Lastly, and like mentioned above, goad has diminishing returns as the game approaches 1v1 which makes it feel like a fair mechanic over all although convincing the 2 dead players of that may be a challenge.

[Avacyn Believer]

My best experience playing against goad was with the already mentioned Thantis, the Warweaver. It is not goad exactly, but it forces everyone to attack, and at least it gives players the option to attack you, which then benefits you. Which I think is better than goad, because people will go out of their way to not do something you want them to do and will find ways to tap their creatures or make them not attack.

Best way to test it though would be to just build (or proxy) the deck and try it out with people that you play. You never know, maybe they'll enjoy playing against it. If people don't have fun, you can always adjust it, or dismantle it in the worst case.

[PrimevalCommander]

I think Kitt Kanto, Mayhem Diva is a good commander for this. My buddy had one in the 99 of his "turn dudes sideways" deck and it really manipulated combat like a champ. Life totals started dropping quickly, but the targeted nature of the effect allowed for a more political take on the ability. Also only targeting 1 creature per opponent is fair enough not to cause a rage quit, but strong enough to divert the most threatening creature of each player to be effective. You need creatures to tap, which means they don't get to swing, but having a few utility dorks back to tap didn't seem like a problem. And not every opponent will have a big fatty all the time you need to distract. Probably still annoying because players don't like to be forced into bad game actions, see Mindslaver, but at least you can adjust your approach with the single target ability instead of the EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME versions previously mentioned. Firkraag, Cunning Instigator is probably a good way to go as well if you wanted blue, but I think white provides good combat trick support for a Goad theme deck.

[Ruiner]

Goad and forced attack stuff is totally fine. It can be a great tool to get aggressive decks swinging elsewhere. It is also useful to have decks that would rather not attack open themselves up so they lose blockers. It can sometimes act as removal (when someone is forced to swing at a player with better stuff).

The main thing you need to keep in mind is eventually, you have to kill the last other player yourself because goad in 1 vs 1 ends up not being so great. I've seen a number of Kardur, Doomscourge decks that are great at getting 2nd place but never the win.

[yeti1069]

I run a fair bit of goad in my Queen Marchesa deck.

It definitely can generate some hate around the table, forcing players to attack. Sometimes this is mitigated somewhat by giving them value for doing so (ie., Karazikar, the Eye Tyrant or Breena, the Demagogue), and avoided by having some pillowfort (Ghostly Prison) and protection effects (Teferi's Protection), as well as rattlesnakes (Nighthawk Scavenger or Brash Taunter to dissuade attacks.

Marisi looks like it can do some of that, but I don't know how much of the value you can offer for attacking elsewhere, and as soon as commanders are revealed, everyone is going to know that you're there to bully them into hitting each other, while other decks with some goad, like mine, are going to rely on politics a lot as well.

[RxPhantom]

I like goad as a mechanic. Stuff like Disrupt Decorum can really break up logjammed board states. As a deck's primary strategy, I don't think it would be fun to pilot or play against, and it could whiff entirely if facing a creature-light table.

[DirkGently]

I can't speak for any other creatures, but I know whenever I get goaded I just HAVE to start swinging at people, like I can't even control myself I'm so worked up. So I guess it's pretty annoying, yeah.

[BaronCappuccino]

I like goad, and have built several decks devoted to it, but I've never had success with it. It seems like a mechanic released ten years too late.

[Magiqmaster]

My Marisi deck, so far, generally has some good success as my meta is mostly composed of creature decks. To alleviate the late game 1vs1 scenario, where goad does nothing useful anymore, I rely on several fog effects and surprise wraths such as Angel of the Dire Hour, Comeuppance and Settle the Wreckage to avoid the inevitable backlash.

I agree, I get some complaints throughout the game, but I only use a few effects aside Marisi to goad (with minimal protection to save him from removal), so I guess my deck is fair overall.

[Avz]

I played Marisi for a bit, and it might have just been my meta, but I did not get very good feedback from the other players about it. I've also played against a Kardur list a couple times, and while he was very impactful on the game he never seemed to end up winning. I like goad in the 99 a lot more than in the command zone. I play Kardur in basically any deck that I can, and it does a ton of work for me. That said, my meta is pretty creature heavy, and we don't play a ton of infinite combos, so I think the effectiveness of goad really depends on the people you play with.

[NZB2323]

The issue is a lot of times Goad kind of functions in a way that is actively killing opponents while telling them they have to kill each other. Its possible that others don't find it annoying but I found that I often targeted them a lot with effects until they essentially were no longer a threat. I don't care that its forcing me to attack but if I am getting hit by that player each turn while being forced to attack others I am going to use a lot of my interaction to try to make them stop it.

The other problem I have with Goad is more generic in that it makes an assumption that your opponents plan to win via combat. If your opponents don't it can be a lot more hit or miss based on what their deck actually does.

I've been playing a Marisi deck for years now (and enjoy the heck out of it). Mine is built to fit my play style: controlling with hatebears and answers. But like many decks, it's not for every meta. In a combat heavy meta, you run the risk of having your opponents have a bad play experience unless they're skilled players who run plenty of interaction and can work together if they perceive you as the threat. Additionally, if you play in a combat-lite meta, lol your deck doesn't do anything. Lastly, and like mentioned above, goad has diminishing returns as the game approaches 1v1 which makes it feel like a fair mechanic over all although convincing the 2 dead players of that may be a challenge.

If you're playing against a combat-lite meta, you should still be fine with hatebears in Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, Collector Ouphe, Bane of Progress, Gaddock Teeg, Aven Mindcensor, Scavenging Ooze, ect. but I'm not sure how fun that deck would be to play against.

It's also annoying that Marisi is the "breaker of the coil," but he forces creatures to attack.

I ran a Baeloth Barrityl, Entertainer//Raised by Giants deck, but most games ended with me being the archenemy, my opponents teaming up and killing me, so I stopped playing it.

[Mookie]

IMO, goad is mildly annoying, but no more so than many other forms of interaction. I won't be happy if my opponent goads me repeatedly, but I also won't be happy if my stuff is repeatedly countered or killed. That said, a goad-based deck may be doing so every turn, while a control deck may not be killing / countering stuff every turn, so the frequency does matter. Hmmm.... Ultimately, I think part of the issue with goad is that the annoyance it attracts is disproportionate to its actual impact on the game - it tends to attract a lot of annoyance, but there are a lot of decks that can either ignore or play through it.

[Treamayne]

I like goad, and have built several decks devoted to it, but I've never had success with it. It seems like a mechanic released ten years too late.

I would gladly trade Goad for a return of Provoke. . .
(Which wasn't a bad mechanic - it had potential to be a great mechanic, but only apeared on bad cards in its first set and so never came back)

[ironic gesture]

Comparing a goad deck to a typical control deck is interesting. Both strategies aim to minimize the threats posed by the opponents. A control deck tries to answer all 'serious' threats whether they are a permanent or on the stack using hard removal. A goad deck only interacts with creatures already resolved and only by making the creatures turn sideways. One of these strategies at least lets the players play and keep their spells and the same strategy allows the game to progress to a conclusion instead of stalling the game into a state where the control deck can slowly grind a win.

[pokken]

I will say I find Goad a *lot* less annoying than Grave Pact.dec or Wrath of God.dec or god forbid Control Magic.dec.

[yeti1069]

Comparing a goad deck to a typical control deck is interesting. Both strategies aim to minimize the threats posed by the opponents. A control deck tries to answer all 'serious' threats whether they are a permanent or on the stack using hard removal. A goad deck only interacts with creatures already resolved and only by making the creatures turn sideways. One of these strategies at least lets the players play and keep their spells and the same strategy allows the game to progress to a conclusion instead of stalling the game into a state where the control deck can slowly grind a win.

Unfortunately, that's not the thought process most players seem to use when assessing being goaded. People just bristle at being forced to do something, even when it was something they were already going to do. I've literally had someone start targeting me hard for goading their biggest creature when we all knew it was going to be swinging at the most threatening player even if I hadn't goaded it, but because I said you must attack, or you can't attack me, it ruffled their feathers. No amount of logic or politicking could alter their view...

...thankfully, I didn't care too much, since I could goad them.

[yeti1069]

Oh, and having effects to punish attackers (like Comeuppance that others have mentioned) can keep goad relevant in 1v1.
Bothersome Quasit also can put in work 1v1 since goading also makes the creature unable to block.

[NZB2323]

Do people find Odric, Master Tactician to be as annoying as goad? It forces the opponent to block how you want them to.

[Avacyn Believer]

I will say I find Goad a *lot* less annoying than Grave Pact.dec or Wrath of God.dec or god forbid Control Magic.dec.

So true! Goad is like so low on the list of annoying mechanics.

Do people find Odric, Master Tactician to be as annoying as goad? It forces the opponent to block how you want them to.

Honestly, in all my years of playing Commander I've seen Odric used successfully maybe once? I suppose it could be annoying if it happens all the time, but then your playgroup will know what to expect and will be prepared against it. I don't think Odric is much different to regular boardwipes or other effects that kill your opponent's creatures.