Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 month ago

If keeper of the secret lair was a real card I would grab the gasoline and matches and burn my magic collection to ashes.

But honestly KotSL and collectigull are both sooo...cringy? HotR cards have varied from basically reasonable to obscenely overpowered, but they always seemed like cute nonsense cards (as does champions of archery). Whereas the other two feel very...corporate? Aside from caring about things magic doesn't care about, they're basically reasonable cards that just promote the most predatory business practices that WotC has instituted. They make me feel gross all over, like I'm watching a bunch of suits high five each other.

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Post by ZenN » 1 month ago

pokken wrote:
1 month ago
ZenN wrote:
1 month ago
So uh, I guess Champions of Archery is a thing now?
It's one of those heroes of the realm cards that aren't legal anywhere
Ah, yes, so it is. Silly.
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bobthefunny
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Post by bobthefunny » 1 month ago

Hawk wrote:
1 month ago
Healing Technique seems like the best of this cycle, but I still am not sure I'd run it compared to Skullwinder nevermind Eternal Witness. Regrowth, and Wildest Dreams. Definitely has some extra value in lifegain based commanders like Lathiel, the Bounteous Dawn or all the Witherbloom folks though.
I think the better comparison here would be Once and Future. I actually really like once and future, and returning 2 cards has been absolutely amazing, even better at instant speed.

Healing Technique slows it down to sorcery, makes it easier to double up in decks with more colors, and gives you some healing. It's a card that's better when you're behind, since you can pick someone else who's behind to let them pull back a needed wrath on your behalf.

For me, I think in the vast majority of cases, I'll stick to Once and Future. It's more consistent, and good while ahead or behind. The instant speed has been important too, pulling back clutch Heroic Interventions and Beast Withins.
DirkGently wrote:
1 month ago
Yedora, Grave Gardener is the most interesting of the golgari/witherbloom deck to me. I guess it works with morphs? Wouldn't mind some incredibly detailed rules analysis from Bob on that one :P

702.36e seems to indicate you can flip it, at least.

EDIT: oop, although I also see "If a face-down creature loses its abilities, it can't be turned face up by paying its morph cost because it no longer has morph or a morph cost."

So I guess not?
This... is interesting. This is the first of this effect. Until now, every card on the battlefield face down has been a 2/2 - first with morph, but then Manifest and Megamorph were just variations of that. This is new.
701.34c If a card with morph is manifested, its controller may turn that card face up using either the procedure described in rule 702.36e to turn a face-down permanent with morph face up or the procedure described above to turn a manifested permanent face up.

702.36a Morph is a static ability that functions in any zone from which you could play the card it's on, and the morph effect works any time the card is face down. "Morph [cost]" means "You may cast this card as a 2/2 face-down creature with no text, no name, no subtypes, and no mana cost by paying {3} rather than paying its mana cost." (See rule 707, "Face-Down Spells and Permanents.")

702.36e Any time you have priority, you may turn a face-down permanent you control with a morph ability face up. This is a special action; it doesn't use the stack (see rule 116). To do this, show all players what the permanent's morph cost would be if it were face up, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up. (If the permanent wouldn't have a morph cost if it were face up, it can't be turned face up this way.) The morph effect on it ends, and it regains its normal characteristics. Any abilities relating to the permanent entering the battlefield don't trigger when it's turned face up and don't have any effect, because the permanent has already entered the battlefield.

707.2. Face-down spells and face-down permanents have no characteristics other than those listed by the ability or rules that allowed the spell or permanent to be face down. Any listed characteristics are the copiable values of that object's characteristics. (See rule 613, "Interaction of Continuous Effects," and rule 706, "Copying Objects.")

707.7. The ability or rules that allow a permanent to be face down may also allow the permanent's controller to turn it face up. Spells normally can't be turned face up.
Note that 702.36a does NOT mention that the morph has no abilities. However, morphs DO NOT have abilities - they get the +2/+2 from Muraganda Petroglyphs.


As an additional note - turning a Morph face up doesn't use the stack - it's ending a continuous effect - as noted on 702.36e. This is an interesting note because the Morph effect isn't solely due to the action of casting a morph - it can still be used when manifested, or when the card is turned face down by other means, such as Ixidron or Backslide - despite no action technically 'starting' the effect.

From this, this indicates that the ability to morph will be resultant on how the object would look after it morphs. We'll need to await the official set notes, but I would put 90% on yes, you can morph from cards Yedora, Grave Gardener returns to play. And they could even help pay their own morph costs.

===

As another Other Note - The part about not being able to morph if the creature has no abilities - That's because of the joy that is Humility. You can't morph under humility, you try to turn the card face up and show the ability cost of morph - but it doesn't have it, because humility. You CAN manifest under humility though, because that's not an ability on the card. Yay!

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 month ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 month ago
If keeper of the secret lair was a real card I would grab the gasoline and matches and burn my magic collection to ashes.

But honestly KotSL and collectigull are both sooo...cringy? HotR cards have varied from basically reasonable to obscenely overpowered, but they always seemed like cute nonsense cards (as does champions of archery). Whereas the other two feel very...corporate? Aside from caring about things magic doesn't care about, they're basically reasonable cards that just promote the most predatory business practices that WotC has instituted. They make me feel gross all over, like I'm watching a bunch of suits high five each other.
Apparently, the groups receiving them are the ones who design them, with optional help from R&D. Since Secret Lair and Booster Fun were likely at least partially concieved by the marketing department, you may not be far off in calling it suits high fiving themselves.

It personally comes across as kinda cute to me, knowing the origins. But mileage may vary.

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Post by duducrash » 1 month ago

Sporegorger_Dragon wrote:
1 month ago
Cyberium wrote:
1 month ago
Yes, I think historic-affinity is definite a great place to start. White values heritage, succession, artifact/enchantment, legends, so them being the historic color is prime.
Historic-affinity is a remarkably succinct way to describe what white should be.

White should definitely be the "historic matters" color.
You guys may ve onto something



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Post by WizardMN » 1 month ago

bobthefunny wrote:
1 month ago
From this, this indicates that the ability to morph will be resultant on how the object would look after it morphs. We'll need to await the official set notes, but I would put 90% on yes, you can morph from cards Yedora, Grave Gardener returns to play. And they could even help pay their own morph costs.

===

As another Other Note - The part about not being able to morph if the creature has no abilities - That's because of the joy that is Humility. You can't morph under humility, you try to turn the card face up and show the ability cost of morph - but it doesn't have it, because humility. You CAN manifest under humility though, because that's not an ability on the card. Yay!
See, all of that and I came to the exact opposite conclusion :P That is because Humility and "this is a Forest" operate the same way (in the ways that matter for this interaction). Nothing in the game currently just sets a card to another card type without functioning within the layers system. So, it makes sense that this would be the same: it is a Forest because it is made a Forest in layer 4. The same as if it was enchanted by Song of the Dryads.

Which means that if you look at what it looks like after it would Morph...well you would have a Forest with no abilities. Because setting the card type to land and then the subtype to a Basic Land type removes all abilities and since this functions in layer 4 it still applies after it is face up.

So, basically, it comes down to: is this still a Forest even if turned face up (such as with Break Open) and I believe that the answer is yes since it is a Continuous Effect making it a Forest and that will continue to apply after being turned face up.

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Post by pokken » 1 month ago

I do not care one way or another what the rules details are at this point but it is very stupid if they let things morph out from under that ability, and they should fix it. :P
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Post by materpillar » 1 month ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 month ago
If keeper of the secret lair was a real card I would grab the gasoline and matches and burn my magic collection to ashes.

But honestly KotSL and collectigull are both sooo...cringy? HotR cards have varied from basically reasonable to obscenely overpowered, but they always seemed like cute nonsense cards (as does champions of archery). Whereas the other two feel very...corporate? Aside from caring about things magic doesn't care about, they're basically reasonable cards that just promote the most predatory business practices that WotC has instituted. They make me feel gross all over, like I'm watching a bunch of suits high five each other.
It's amazing how much I almost agree with you. It's cringy and a celebration of one of the worst current aspects of magic. I want to hate this card as much as you but I just emotionally can't because the art and name are so good. I wish this was an actual card with everything the same but the text box.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 month ago

pokken wrote:
1 month ago
I do not care one way or another what the rules details are at this point but it is very stupid if they let things morph out from under that ability, and they should fix it. :P
@bobthefunny (I didn't want to try to quote our previous comments)
Well, it looks like they are going with "very stupid" :P :



As long as they have a good rules justification for the interaction, I am fine with the answer, but it seems quite strange that this is somehow not in Layer 4 and instead is a modification to the face down status process in layer 1b (which then doesn't apply when face down obviously). It certainly seems like it should be in Layer 4. Rule 707.2 already covers this., It just comes up so infrequently and isn't usually combined with an effect that also makes it lose abilities (even though being face down makes it lose abilities too) that I didn't think of it:


707.2. Face-down spells and face-down permanents have no characteristics other than those listed by the ability or rules that allowed the spell or permanent to be face down. Any listed characteristics are the copiable values of that object's characteristics. (See rule 613, "Interaction of Continuous Effects," and rule 706, "Copying Objects.")


So, bobthefunny was spot on :)
Last edited by WizardMN 1 month ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by pokken » 1 month ago

Very stupid and very tedious autoinclude in every morph deck. Yuck.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 month ago

Morph decks are neat and can use the support.

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Post by Lifeless » 1 month ago

If I hadn't recently pulled apart my morph deck Yedora and some sac outlets would certainly be on their way in. I like the card a lot and it's not like morph was anything more than a slow value engine for the most part anyway. Nothing wrong with giving that kind of deck a fun toy.

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Post by pokken » 1 month ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 month ago
Morph decks are neat and can use the support.
Completely disagree. A few morphs now and then is fun to see. A deck built around an army of facedown creatures that no one can interact with meaningfully is beyond tedious, especially when they replace themselves (thanks Kadena for being such a big dumb hammer).

Morph as a mechanic is just awkward to play against and really not fun at all. hey I heard you have a morph counterspell and will be recurring it forever, except I can't hate on it with traditional creature hate.

It was a huge mistake originally and it's a huger mistake to keep feeding it without aligning the rules so it operates on the axis that creatures are meant to (ETB or activated abilities).

Morph *should* have been an activated ability that causes "exile and return to the battlefield face up" and had any value triggers been on ETB. Morphs beating stuff like Hushwing Gryff and Suppression Field because of sloppy rules writing is awful.

And we also got an extra Brine Elemental "combo" piece, which we know everyone loves.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 month ago

It requires problem solving and creative play. You have to predict which morphs your opponent can use at a given time.

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Post by Lifeless » 1 month ago

I may have to alter my previous stance based on Ruthless Ripper and any sac outlet producing an infinite life loss loop. There's other easy loops for infinite life and mana too, but this one will get old fast even if it's relatively easy to disrupt. That being said I did always complain that my morph deck didn't have reliable win conditions outside of attrition, so I guess it would now.

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 month ago

pokken wrote:
1 month ago
A few morphs now and then is fun to see.
I always feel 2-3 morphs is the right amount of morphs, cause it's just enough to make people always assume it's Willbender.
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Post by Outcryqq » 1 month ago

pokken wrote:
1 month ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
1 month ago
Morph decks are neat and can use the support.
Completely disagree. A few morphs now and then is fun to see. A deck built around an army of facedown creatures that no one can interact with meaningfully is beyond tedious, especially when they replace themselves (thanks Kadena for being such a big dumb hammer).

Morph as a mechanic is just awkward to play against and really not fun at all. hey I heard you have a morph counterspell and will be recurring it forever, except I can't hate on it with traditional creature hate.

It was a huge mistake originally and it's a huger mistake to keep feeding it without aligning the rules so it operates on the axis that creatures are meant to (ETB or activated abilities).

Morph *should* have been an activated ability that causes "exile and return to the battlefield face up" and had any value triggers been on ETB. Morphs beating stuff like Hushwing Gryff and Suppression Field because of sloppy rules writing is awful.

And we also got an extra Brine Elemental "combo" piece, which we know everyone loves.
Meh, I play a decently powered Kadena, Slinking Sorcerer deck and can attest that it's weak, and even with the powerful addition of Yedora, Grave Gardener it will only be marginally better. Still folds to a few decent spot removal.

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Post by pokken » 1 month ago

Outcryqq wrote:
1 month ago
Meh, I play a decently powered Kadena, Slinking Sorcerer deck and can attest that it's weak, and even with the powerful addition of Yedora, Grave Gardener it will only be marginally better. Still folds to a few decent spot removal
My experience has mostly been that if you don't kill every single instant speed enabler or kadena every time she drops you will get run over by the value of a free dude and draw a card every player turn. And interaction is not really a sovereign solution since there are so many morphs that protect Kadena.

It's not a top tier power level deck or anything but it's basically a pointless whackamole exercise at lower powered tables.
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 month ago

pokken wrote:
1 month ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
1 month ago
Morph decks are neat and can use the support.
Completely disagree. A few morphs now and then is fun to see. A deck built around an army of facedown creatures that no one can interact with meaningfully is beyond tedious, especially when they replace themselves (thanks Kadena for being such a big dumb hammer).

Morph as a mechanic is just awkward to play against and really not fun at all. hey I heard you have a morph counterspell and will be recurring it forever, except I can't hate on it with traditional creature hate.

It was a huge mistake originally and it's a huger mistake to keep feeding it without aligning the rules so it operates on the axis that creatures are meant to (ETB or activated abilities).

Morph *should* have been an activated ability that causes "exile and return to the battlefield face up" and had any value triggers been on ETB. Morphs beating stuff like Hushwing Gryff and Suppression Field because of sloppy rules writing is awful.

And we also got an extra Brine Elemental "combo" piece, which we know everyone loves.
I do want to point out that this *isn't* a mistake or "sloppy rules writing". It's a matter of priorities. The most important part of Morph is the element of surprise. If Morph worked as an activated ability, you'd have to reveal what creature is under the morph *before* it flips, and suddenly a simple shock can counter any morph in the game. It needs to be a special action to avoid that problem. That's not sloppy, it's just got different priorities than you do.

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Post by pokken » 1 month ago

They could figure out ways to make it work on normal game axes instead of adding an inelegant system.

edit: to expound a little

Morph: Activated ability Pay whatever, Exile the card face down and return it to the battlefield face up. "when turned face up" abilities are now "enter's the battlefield" abilities. "when a creature is turned faced up" triggers are now "when a creature enters the battlefield after being morphed."

There's already secret information for flipping morphs, no reason they can't be exiled face down. There may be quirks but there are already amillion quirks with morph.

The issue with the whole 'surprise static ability' is that Magic really is not designed to have surprise static abilities people can't react to or interact with. We have had 'counter activated ability' for most of the game's history. There is no interaction axis for 'static ability.'

The lack of interaction surface is a huge problem with Morph and it's repeated in many other 'special systems' they have added over the years. Thankfully they have learned not to add card types and subsystems willy nilly -- so things like Gods are, instead of a special card type, a subtype or combination of types instead of a whole new subsystem.

(Note that 'on cast' triggers suffer from a lot of the same system misalignment/interaction surface problems that Morph does, and are slowly being corrected with cards like disallow being able to interact with on-cast triggered abilities. Still, Morph is *far* more misaligned than that. Just an example I could think of).

There is so much design surface in magic that adding new parasitic subsystems is really not necessary almost ever. Just this man's opinion of course.
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Post by Dragoon » 1 month ago

pokken wrote:
1 month ago
(Note that 'on cast' triggers suffer from a lot of the same system misalignment/interaction surface problems that Morph does, and are slowly being corrected with cards like disallow being able to interact with on-cast triggered abilities. Still, Morph is *far* more misaligned than that. Just an example I could think of).
Disallow, Trickbind, Stifle and all their variants can also be used to counter the triggered ability from a Morph creature though. The only real advantage is to avoid direct counterspells as you don't know what the spell is when it's on the stack. The downside is that the creature can die easily if its controller doesn't have the mana to flip it immediately.
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Post by pokken » 1 month ago

Dragoon wrote:
1 month ago
Disallow, Trickbind, Stifle and all their variants can also be used to counter the triggered ability from a Morph creature though. The only real advantage is to avoid direct counterspells as you don't know what the spell is when it's on the stack. The downside is that the creature can die easily if its controller doesn't have the mana to flip it immediately.
They do work for some Morphs (I'd say the majority that are good are good because of their flip ability, but not all). But 'almost as able to be interacted with as one of the notoriously problematic mechanics in the game" is not a good place to be.

The biggest problem with Morphs is beating things like Linvala, Keeper of Silence and Cursed Totem and the second biggest is that their ability is not shut off by anti-ETB effects - when they are basically ETBs in all but name. The morph cost being higher than typical ETB creatures (sometimes) is payback for the secrecy, not the ability to bypass almost all types of interaction of hosing.

Again, that's my opinion and YMMV - clearly morphs are a matter of taste.

...saw this in another threaD XD:)
Wallycaine wrote:
1 month ago
I'd also point out that there's nothing preventing them from creating a Strict Proctor or Hushwing Gryff ability for flipping morphs. It's just such a narrow ability that it would be largely useless, so it'd likely have to be in addition to something else.
That is literally the exact design problem Morph presents. Nothing that shuts it down will likely ever be printed because it's so narrow. But there's enough support for it that you can create some pretty powerful decks that have the virtue of operating on a complete separate spectrum as other creature decks - like ships passing in the night, they might as well be immune to targeted removal, they can't be hosed with traditional creature hate effects, and they can interact in ways you can't really respond to well - so their interaction is stronger, yours is worse.

They're not even particularly vulnerable to sweepers because there's so much outsized support for drawing cards off morphs.

Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is the only real morph hate card ever printed almost heh :)

Morph would be almost as interesting if it played on the ETB/Activated Ability axis - and able to take advantage of a much wider range of effects as well.

Again you're welcome to your opinion I just don't think it creates a good experience for anyone. Morph decks in my experience are basically trying to play a different game from everyone else and that can be fun once or twice it gets pretty tiresome. Again, my opinion.
Last edited by pokken 1 month ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mookie » 1 month ago

I've never found morph cards to be particularly oppressive. The cards are generally overcosted compared to creatures with equivalent ETB effects, and they're also significantly more difficult to cheat - you can't flicker or reanimate a morph creature if you want its trigger. I play a few in my decks, but they're generally just there as copy #2 of an equivalent ETB creature. Dodging Torpor Orb is nice, but I value my tempo.

...that said, Kadena, Slinking Sorcerer is absolutely miserable to play against, and responsible for pretty much all of my gripes with the mechanic.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 month ago

Mookie wrote:
1 month ago
...that said, Kadena, Slinking Sorcerer is absolutely miserable to play against, and responsible for pretty much all of my gripes with the mechanic.
Really? They've never been in the game at all when I've played against them. I always thought it was mostly a durdle casual morph tribal commander and nothing more.
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