Lutri, the Spellchaser Preemptively Banned

[if4ko]

Commander players, even though you don't have sideboards, you can still get in on the fun. Each Commander deck may include a chosen companion. It starts outside the game and doesn't count as one of your 100 cards. Just like the rest of your deck, your commander must follow the deck-building rule if you're going to use a companion.

So Wizards says it's in your sideboard for 60-card, but in Commander it's not in the sideboard? But... the Rules Committee has the power here. If they choose, they could say it IS in your sideboard and sideboards aren't allowed. That solution would be more elegant because it makes Companion work the same in all formats and is consistent with Rule 11.

Since they have chosen not to do that, why ban Lutri? Because it's an auto-include in decks containing red and blue? Sol Ring is an auto-include in every deck. It has the highest inclusion rate of any card at 81%. Meanwhile, the most auto-incude multi-colored (CI) card is Izzet Signet at 46%. (Source). So the RC has banned it, preemptively nonetheless, for being half as ubiquitous as another, more powerful, card?

According to Toby, they're going to be releasing new rules to accommodate for Companion.

The Johnny in me is happy - don't get me wrong - but the Melvin in me thinks it's strange. (Especially from someone who doesn't support walkers as commanders or wishboarding because it'd result in more bans in the 99)

[digitalfire]

...Because it's an auto-include in Izzet?...

It's an autoinclude *that you always have access to* which is unprecedented other than your commander.

An auto-include that you always have access to *once* and for a card that is weak. Ultimately, as long as it's not overpowered (it's not), the strength of the card doesn't matter. If it was a 0/0 for uuuuurrrrr with no abilities, I would still play it in every blue and red deck just in case I could use it in 0.001% of my games.

The mechanic, not the card, is what would cause high demand. The high demand would fetch a high price. The high price would cause people to not include it. For example, Demonic Tutor is an auto-include but the price makes it prohibitive. So if it's a $30 card and all it does is copy one of your spells, Casual Tim isn't going to run it.

The best solution would have been rule consistency, but the second best solution would have been to wait and see how the demand curve evened out after a quarter. In my opinion, this reality is the worst solution.

[Mimicvat]

Best solution would have been to have a different condition on the card?

[digitalfire]

Sol Ring isn't an auto-include - no existing cards are. It's certainly a staple that goes in most decks, but there is an opportunity cost to running it - one fewer card slots to run other cards instead. Simultaneously, you need to draw the card - it's not a particularly good topdeck in the lategame, for example.

There are opportunity costs to running Command Tower. One fewer slot to run other cards instead. It's not a particularly good topdeck in the lategame.

Lutri has zero opportunity cost, because it's in your sideboard. It's not competing with other cards, and you don't even have to draw it. It's like saying 'if you're playing Izzet, your opening hand has 8 cards instead of 7'. There is no reason not to run it - it's not even competing for sideboard slots, because EDH doesn't have a sideboard.

This is why I only play Thrasios / Tymna. It would be suboptimal for me not to. And yet, some people choose not to play partners. Maybe some people may choose not to play Lutri.

According to Toby, they're going to be releasing new rules to accommodate for Companion.

That seems silly. It makes me sad. What happened to simplifying the rules? Like Banned as Commander?

[RxPhantom]

The way companion interacts with the format just seems weird and unwieldy. There are no sideboards in the format, except for companions I guess? And can you have any number of companions if the deck supports its conditions? I just assumed the companion mechanic wouldn't work in Commander, but it does I guess. They'd be fine in the 99 from what I've seen of them. The whole thing seems wonky.

[bobthefunny]

Sol Ring isn't an auto-include - no existing cards are. It's certainly a staple that goes in most decks, but there is an opportunity cost to running it - one fewer card slots to run other cards instead. Simultaneously, you need to draw the card - it's not a particularly good topdeck in the lategame, for example.

There are opportunity costs to running Command Tower. One fewer slot to run other cards instead. It's not a particularly good topdeck in the lategame.

Yes - That IS an opportunity cost to Command tower. One that Lutri does not have.

If I take my Tibor and Lumia deck, and add Dualcaster Mage, I have to remove another card. Then, eventually I need to draw it and use it. I might never see my Dualcaster Mage, and I might never see my Command Tower or Sol Ring.

With Lutri, none of that is an issue. If I want to add Lutri to my T&L deck, Boom! It's there! Nothing comes out, nothing changes. I don't even have to draw the card. I essentially start with an 8 card hand, and if I ever need a personal fork, or a flash blocker. Hey, I have one!

Every single deck* that contains Red and Blue, and even any other color is immediately made better by having a Lutri, vs not having one. It literally goes into every* RUx deck with zero downsides. At all. Because it's not in the deck.

This means that seven years from now, if you want to build a R/U/x deck, you will be better off if you have a Lutri than not. It's a free 8th card in hand, but Lutri might be hard to find. Would some people not bother? Sure. Some people don't have dual lands, or gauntlet of power or other high cost cards, and not everyone runs an optimized list - but this is absolutely the poster child of that problem. If you have one, you immediately have an advantage over everyone that doesn't - for every single game ever that you play with them. At no deck building cost.

Primeval Titan and prophet of kruphix ate bans for ubiquity. They were auto includes, had games centralized around them, and showed up all the time. Lutri, if in a deck (which, as above, would be ideally almost 100% of all R/U/x), will show up in 100% of the games it's at a table in. Because it starts in 100% of the hands. That is some serious ubiquity. Literally outshining even a t1 sol ring play on ubiquity. You can have all 4 decks at a table playing sol ring and not see a t1 sol ring. In fact, you will not see a t1 sol ring most of the games you play. But if even one player has a URx deck, you will see Lutri every single game.

===
* except for persistent petitioners and seven dwarves decks.

[Myllior]

I really do not like this mechanic at all.

Feels like basically a rehash of commander slapped onto this format.

Hopefully they just don't allow them. Having access to yet another card all the time is super annoying.

I'll echo this. For me, the mechanic violates what I consider to be one of the defining characteristics of Commander: That your deck and commanders together total 100 cards exactly.

That the mechanic is going to need special rules to make it work but otherwise keep the Commander rules as they stand intact is somewhat of an indictment in itself. If you have to make systemic changes in order to accommodate some minor detail, as opposed to changing the system for the better of the system itself, then that detail should be removed.

So yeah, if I had a vote: Lutri is fine; Companion needs to be nipped in the bud.

[Jim Wolfie]

like mechanically speaking yes ban.

flavor ? nah otter ban bad.

[digitalfire]

Sol Ring isn't an auto-include - no existing cards are. It's certainly a staple that goes in most decks, but there is an opportunity cost to running it - one fewer card slots to run other cards instead. Simultaneously, you need to draw the card - it's not a particularly good topdeck in the lategame, for example.

There are opportunity costs to running Command Tower. One fewer slot to run other cards instead. It's not a particularly good topdeck in the lategame.

Yes - That IS an opportunity cost to Command tower. One that Lutri does not have.

I think we just have a different definition of auto-include. Yes, you might not run Sol Ring in Animar, but I wager that over 99% of decks would be better with Sol Ring than without. That's what I mean when I say auto-include.

With Lutri, none of that is an issue. If I want to add Lutri to my T&L deck, Boom! It's there! Nothing comes out, nothing changes. I don't even have to draw the card.

Right. I think the issue is the mechanic, and not the card. To cite my earlier example, if Lutri was a 0/0 for uuuuurrrrr with no abilities, I would still run it on the 1-in-a-million chance I have an Elesh Norn and need 2 extra damage to win the game. But what if that 0/0 was $30? Eh, probably not. I feel the same will happen with Lutri. Even though the mechanic is busted, the card is not. Will people shell out $30 for Lutri? Maybe. How about $75? $200? Some will. Some will not.

Like I said, if you're not running Partner commanders, you are making the same sacrifice. In fact, Partner is even better than Companion because they're reusable, AND you only need a 98 card deck. And yet, your signature has no Partner commanders in it. Dare I say... some people play suboptimally in Commander? Maybe some people play for fun and not to optimize, and they don't feel that a worse-Duelcaster is worth the money?

[pokken]

The way companion interacts with the format just seems weird and unwieldy. There are no sideboards in the format, except for companions I guess? And can you have any number of companions of the deck supports its conditions? I just assumed the companion mechanic wouldn't work in Commander, but it does I guess. They'd be fine in the 99 from what I've seen of them. The whole thing seems wonky.

I thought I saw some rule that you can only have one companion?

[BeneTleilax]

The mechanic, not the card, is what would cause high demand. The high demand would fetch a high price. The high price would cause people to not include it. For example, Demonic Tutor is an auto-include but the price makes it prohibitive. So if it's a $30 card and all it does is copy one of your spells, Casual Tim isn't going to run it.

The best solution would have been rule consistency, but the second best solution would have been to wait and see how the demand curve evened out after a quarter. In my opinion, this reality is the worst solution.

Pricing people out isn't a solution. In fact, expensive autoincludes are more bannable than cheap ones, going off the RC philosophy. It's why the Moxen are banned, but Sol Ring isn't. A brainless division of "has Lutri" or "too poor to buy Lutri" for all UR decks going forwards is toxic as hell. At least duals have opportunity cost, and you can get blown out by Price of Progress or something.

[digitalfire]

The mechanic, not the card, is what would cause high demand. The high demand would fetch a high price. The high price would cause people to not include it. For example, Demonic Tutor is an auto-include but the price makes it prohibitive. So if it's a $30 card and all it does is copy one of your spells, Casual Tim isn't going to run it.

The best solution would have been rule consistency, but the second best solution would have been to wait and see how the demand curve evened out after a quarter. In my opinion, this reality is the worst solution.

Pricing people out isn't a solution. In fact, expensive autoincludes are more bannable than cheap ones, going off the RC philosophy. It's why the Moxen are banned, but Sol Ring isn't. A brainless division of "has Lutri" or "too poor to buy Lutri" for all UR decks going forwards is toxic as hell. At least duals have opportunity cost, and you can get blown out by Price of Progress or something.

Then why don't you play Mana Crypt or Imperial Seal in your Korvold deck? And/or why aren't they banned? 99% of decks that can run them would be better with them.

[TheGildedGoose]

Ah yes, the trickle down theory of banning.

[bobthefunny]

I think we just have a different definition of auto-include. Yes, you might not run Sol Ring in Animar, but I wager that over 99% of decks would be better with Sol Ring than without. That's what I mean when I say auto-include.

[...]

Right. I think the issue is the mechanic, and not the card. To cite my earlier example, if Lutri was a 0/0 for uuuuurrrrr with no abilities, I would still run it on the 1-in-a-million chance I have an Elesh Norn and need 2 extra damage to win the game. But what if that 0/0 was $30? Eh, probably not. I feel the same will happen with Lutri. Even though the mechanic is busted, the card is not. Will people shell out $30 for Lutri? Maybe. How about $75? $200? Some will. Some will not.

[...]

Like I said, if you're not running Partner commanders, you are making the same sacrifice. In fact, Partner is even better than Companion because they're reusable, AND you only need a 98 card deck. And yet, your signature has no Partner commanders in it. Dare I say... some people play suboptimally in Commander? Maybe some people play for fun and not to optimize, and they don't feel that a worse-Duelcaster is worth the money?

I don't think we're disagreeing on the definition of auto-include. I think we're disagreeing on the extent of which for lutri.

The mechanic itself isn't necessarily bad, when weighed against its drawback. Adding an extra layer of deck requirements can certainly offset the advantage from having an extra card in hand. Let's take Umori, the Collector as an example. Having your entire deck be a single type is a pretty large drawback for having one card added to your opening hand. Certainly you can choose "artifact" and have artifact creatures, or choose "creature" and again have artifact or enchantment creatures - but you lose out on a lot of deckbuilding options to get this power. Gyruda, Doom of Depths likewise has a difficulty in hitting a stable curve, not to mention missing out on powerful effects like future sight or forbid. There's a real tradeoff that happens with these creatures that offsets the power gained. It is an actual choice as to whether to run them, whereas Lutri is not.

Finally, I also disagree that Partner commanders are an optimal choice. They really aren't. They can be good, and flexible, but there's a reason why not all cEDH decks are partner commanders - let alone kitchen table.

Plus, the Commander slot itself is more of the flavor choice you choose to build. These new lieutenants don't have that to the same degree. Perhaps the others which impact your deck building do to a degree, but Lutri certainly does not.

[pokken]

Finally, I also disagree that Partner commanders are an optimal choice. They really aren't. They can be good, and flexible, but there's a reason why not all cEDH decks are partner commanders - let alone kitchen table.

The reason not all CEDH decks are partner commanders is that people try to do stuff differently just to be different in CEDH too. They have pet decks, try to attack metas, etc.

Thrasios and Tymna have proven to be the absolute best commander in EDH and it's not even close; a strong card advantage engine combined with a strong card advantage engine that's also an infinite mana outlet.

The only things even nearby are commanders that have one card combos in more combos (e.g. Najeela) and the card advantage of Tymna has proven to be significantly better.

If you're talking about optimal choice for power level T&T are it.

[papa_funk]

It makes absolutely zero sense that, in competitive formats, Companion cards go into the sideboard, where wishes are supposed to work, yet in Commander, they are allowed outside your collection, where wishes do not work? This is neither flavorful, elegant or coherent, and opens a terrible precedent for the format.

The explanation article is... not great. I think they tried to do it in terms people think of and ended up making a bit of a mess. The actual implementation, in both the CR and the Commander rules, is much more elegant, so sit tight.

[MAGUSZANIN]

So, I agree that Lutri is the most egregious card of the bunch, but I think all of them are inherently problematic from a Commander rules standpoint. Allowing some decks to have 101 cards and others not to do so is annoying, though not deal breaking on it's own. But having the card be cast able from outside the game is a serious problem. This is essentially Eminence+Partner, and those were arguably the worst mechanics to come out of Commander sets ever.

This is a serious violation of Rule 11 and should have been handled as such. They should have followed precedent set by Karn and Rule 11. Let the cards be played in the 99/command zone, but COmpanion as a mechanic is as non-functional as Wishes and Karn's +. I can still play Karn as part of the Latice combo, after all.

[toctheyounger]

The mechanic itself is problematic for the format, really. Lutri is definitely the worst of the lot in terms of 'money for nothing' value and literally just being a cherry on top of any deck in the colours.

That being said, I feel like the more elegant solution for our format would be to render the companion mechanic defunct. They can still be in the 99, they just can't sideboard/wish (which is effectively what this is).

I assume the RC/CAG will be looking at the issue further, in terms of keeping the maximal amount of cards from the new release playable without breaking the format. Other than the mechanic itself, Lutri doesn't seem otherwise busted. In the 99 it's a Dualcaster Mage, so it seems silly to have this particularly banned from the format unnecessarily. Early days, I guess, and Toby's comment above suggests we should just watch this space and see how it all plays out.

[Sinis]

If you're talking about optimal choice for power level T&T are it.

This is one of the reasons I think banning Flash will ultimately do nothing for the cEDH metagame.

[bobthefunny]

Finally, I also disagree that Partner commanders are an optimal choice. They really aren't. They can be good, and flexible, but there's a reason why not all cEDH decks are partner commanders - let alone kitchen table.

The reason not all CEDH decks are partner commanders is that people try to do stuff differently just to be different in CEDH too. They have pet decks, try to attack metas, etc.

Thrasios and Tymna have proven to be the absolute best commander in EDH and it's not even close; a strong card advantage engine combined with a strong card advantage engine that's also an infinite mana outlet.

The only things even nearby are commanders that have one card combos in more combos (e.g. Najeela) and the card advantage of Tymna has proven to be significantly better.

If you're talking about optimal choice for power level T&T are it.

That's still talking about a specific pair though, and for the ultimate top end. If another Commander gets printed that's better, they can be unseated too. That's the thing, there will always be a 'best'.

So, I agree that Lutri is the most egregious card of the bunch, but I think all of them are inherently problematic from a Commander rules standpoint. Allowing some decks to have 101 cards and others not to do so is annoying, though not deal breaking on it's own. But having the card be cast able from outside the game is a serious problem. This is essentially Eminence+Partner, and those were arguably the worst mechanics to come out of Commander sets ever.

This is a serious violation of Rule 11 and should have been handled as such. They should have followed precedent set by Karn and Rule 11. Let the cards be played in the 99/command zone, but COmpanion as a mechanic is as non-functional as Wishes and Karn's +. I can still play Karn as part of the Latice combo, after all.

I think the rather serious deck building constraints from the others will offset the advantages quite handily. These don't come for free (other than Lutri, in Commander). Keruga, the Macrosage is likely going to be the least difficult to pull off in casual, but even then the payoff isn't much greater than a Shamanic Revelation. And at that, people will quickly realize that losing their Cyclonic Rift, sakura tribe elder, counterspell, rampant growth, etc, might not be the greatest decision just to run another massive draw effect that the colors already have no issue with. Or maybe they will want to, because they can blink/bounce him to get far more advantage than a Revelation... But at least there it's a deck building decision with real consequences and decisions. Not having Rift, Hybridize, Pongify, Reality Shift - you lose some of your best removal and counterspells.

[RxPhantom]

The way companion interacts with the format just seems weird and unwieldy. There are no sideboards in the format, except for companions I guess? And can you have any number of companions of the deck supports its conditions? I just assumed the companion mechanic wouldn't work in Commander, but it does I guess. They'd be fine in the 99 from what I've seen of them. The whole thing seems wonky.

I thought I saw some rule that you can only have one companion?

*shrugs* I'm sure we'll get some clarity, but I'm not really digging this set mechanically or thematically so far. That's okay though, not everything can be just for me.

[onering]

Kudos to the RC for taking a stand and banning this. It's a stupid mechanic that looks like it was designed by some kid screwing around with magic set editor, and this particular card was designed in such a way as to have no drawback whatsoever in this format, and then forced into the format with special rules. A preemptive ban sends the message that the RC still maintains control.

So far this whole set looks like a big bed %$#% by wizards. Mutate might be the most poorly designed mechanic since bands with other. It's clear where your supposed to put it over or under on the cards with mutate, but on every other card it's going to cause clear problems that can only be resolved with excessive rules. There's going to be real issues with older cards and with errata. And ability counters are pretty stupid as well. For years MARO has discussed why it's important not to do too many types of counters, and why avoiding confusion and keeping it simple is why they don't mix +1 and -1 counters in sets, and now they come out with half a dozen ability counters. That %$#% is going to be a nightmare to manage in paper, especially once the rinky dink popouts (like they had for amonkhet) get lost.

So much of this looks like it was designed with Arena in mind and nothing else. It's simple to make these counters work in digital, because you don't actually have to keep track of the counters and it will just write the ability on the card in "temporary" font, but in paper it will be absurd. The same thing with Mutate, digital can easily ensure proper placement and never has to worry about errata and can make it crystal clear what parts of what card get shown, but paper doesn't have that luxury.

Edit: having read the explainer, mutate is somewhat less stupid , but I leave up my original comments to show how confusing a mechanic it is without several paragraphs explaining how it works. The text box shading is an especially poor choice as it seems to indicate how you are supposed to place the cards, and players are primed for that given this mechanics conceptual similarities to augment and host. This is banding level complicated.

[Vertain]

The mechanic, not the card, is what would cause high demand. The high demand would fetch a high price. The high price would cause people to not include it. For example, Demonic Tutor is an auto-include but the price makes it prohibitive. So if it's a $30 card and all it does is copy one of your spells, Casual Tim isn't going to run it.

The best solution would have been rule consistency, but the second best solution would have been to wait and see how the demand curve evened out after a quarter. In my opinion, this reality is the worst solution.

Pricing people out isn't a solution. In fact, expensive autoincludes are more bannable than cheap ones, going off the RC philosophy. It's why the Moxen are banned, but Sol Ring isn't. A brainless division of "has Lutri" or "too poor to buy Lutri" for all UR decks going forwards is toxic as hell. At least duals have opportunity cost, and you can get blown out by Price of Progress or something.

"Perceived barrier to entry" as a banning criterium has been abandoned long ago. So the actual reason the original Moxen are still banned, while Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are not, is saving face. "They would not add anything good to the format" says that fast mana is a problem without having to admit that fast mana is, well, a problem.

[DirkGently]

Aesthetically I don't like them, but I didn't aesthetically like command tower, or derevi, or partners, or a million other things which have mostly been fine. In practice, I think they're an interesting way to build a deck, and it's neat that it rewards skilled play because you won't have to play around cards that can't be in their decks - no reason to worry about a counterspell when playing someone with Keruga, if they've only got 2 mana up, for example. In the long term, I suspect they'll all suck and won't be worth it, and they'll be one of those flash in the pan things that comes around occasionally and you think "oh yeah, those things, maybe I should try those again sometime" and then don't.

The reason not all CEDH decks are partner commanders is that people try to do stuff differently just to be different in CEDH too. They have pet decks, try to attack metas, etc.

Thrasios and Tymna have proven to be the absolute best commander in EDH and it's not even close; a strong card advantage engine combined with a strong card advantage engine that's also an infinite mana outlet.

The only things even nearby are commanders that have one card combos in more combos (e.g. Najeela) and the card advantage of Tymna has proven to be significantly better.

If you're talking about optimal choice for power level T&T are it.

When you choose to play partners, you do get an additional card to your hand, but the cost you pay is that you have to choose from among the partner commanders. If tomorrow they printed a new legendary creature with 5-color identity 1-mana with ETB: win the game, you'd throw thrasios and tymna into the garbage can. Having 2 commanders is an advantage, but it does have a cost.

Lutri has no cost whatsoever. It's not "good in almost every deck", it's "literally every single deck that can play her should play her, every deck that will ever exist until the end of time."

(now, a quick caveat: she does preclude paying relentless rats or whatever, and does preclude playing another companion. I think we all know that relentless rats-esque cards are all trash-tier decks in a competitive sense, though, and all the other companions looks pretty awful thus far. Not getting to play another companion is a cost, kind of, in the very technical sense, but it's nowhere near the same level of cost "not getting to have zur in the CZ" which would obviously be very good, if you could do that and still play T&T).

Then why don't you play Mana Crypt or Imperial Seal in your Korvold deck? And/or why aren't they banned? 99% of decks that can run them would be better with them.

As someone with an imperial seal, it's not THAT great. Sorcery speed is a real bummer. Sometimes you set yourself up with something, but by your next turn it's not really what you need anymore. Or it gets shuffled by something. Or you're just telegraphing really hard so everyone can respond to you. I mean, it's a good card, but it's not "every single deck" good.

There's always going to be best cards - and while I think sol ring and mana crypt's ubiquity (or at least, ubiquity were crypt less expensive) should get them banned, they DO still have a cost. Sometimes the board is hostile to artifacts and you'd really prefer a land. Or maybe, if you replaced a business spell, you flood out in a game when some gas could have saved you. There's some tradeoff, even if it's worth it. You do actually lose something to play crypt - you lose whatever card you would have drawn otherwise. With Lutri you sacrifice absolutely not a single damn thing. As I said above, 100% of RU decks would be improved by playing it. Not 99%. Not 99.9%. 100%. There is literally no thinking except "do I pay the money to get that card". It's literally pay-to-win, with no extra steps to actually have to do any critical thinking. That's not really a good thing for the format, imo.

[Atraxian]

Throwing my hat in the ring sayigng that the whole mechanic should he banned from being used for Commander BUT having the cards inside of the 99 or as the commander should not be a ptoblem (on a card to card basis).

If you remove the Companion mechanic then the cards aren't broken or ban-worthy... Apart may be from Gyruda, Doom of Depths which becomes better the higher the number of opponents you have.