[Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread

[Jemolk]

Personally, I hope we can do away with the multi-year antagonists and go back to plane-specific villains. Not everything has to tie into some grand narrative. This ain't the MCU, nor should it aspire to be it.

Especially because they seem to be really, really bad at writing big stories (or, more accurately, really bad at finding the right people for the job of writing the story and then allowing them enough leeway to actually write a decent story rather than a list of pre-approved plot points).

[Rumpy5897]

I don't think we're headed for a full-blown undo, as shown in the Aftermath teaser. Whether this means that walkers are deprived of plot armour is another story.

The closest I got to caring about MTG lore was when WAR rolled out and I realised that it was the culmination of quite a few years of setup, By contrast this Phyrexian arc feels quite rushed.

[benjameenbear]

I swear, WOTC doesn't fully understand the phrase "murder your darlings".

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you said, but since "murderkill your darlings" is a philosophy I try to live by in my writing, I thought I'd step in to clarify - it doesn't refer to literally killing characters, which is what I think you're referring to here (could be wrong), but rather to removing parts of the writing itself that aren't necessary for the story. For example, reworking my novel the other day, I had part of a conversation between two characters that I really liked, but ultimately didn't further the plot and didn't - as much as I'm loathe to admit it - really advance their relationship or develop their characters. So I removed it from the updated version.

"Killing your darlings" can refer to characters as well, but typically "killing" them in this context would mean removing their entire existence from the text because they aren't necessary to the story, not literally killing them.

That said, while I'm not sure there's a pithy expression for it, I do think most fiction across the board is too precious with their characters and it really gets in the way of effective storytelling. It's hard to take the threat of your supposedly world-ending villains seriously when their kill count (of relevant characters) isn't enough to tango. Looking at you, Bolas. You gathered all the least relevant planeswalkers in one place and only managed to kill three of them? And only one was someone I'd remotely consider an important character?

I dunno, I think a lot of big companies get scared that if they kill off the wrong character, fans of that character will jump ship, so they try to calculate who will be the least impactful deaths while still technically telling a story. It's some weak-ass nonsense and I'm not into it. Give me some freaking blood. (Incidentally, if I ever manage to publish my novel, there is a substantial amount of blood on it)

I will be mightily impressed if WotC learned their lesson from WotS's lukewarm reception and actually kills (or functionally-kills) all the planeswalkers they compleated, but I really doubt it's going to happen.

I was mostly being sarcastic, because WOTC tries to "kill" their main characters by turning them Phyrexian to try and get some sort of emotional impact. But they fail. They SHOULD be ready to ACTUALLY kill of a character. Like, Venser is somehow alive?! WTF? They can't even legitimately kill their characters off, much less get rid of soft/bloated prose.

Honestly, I think they're either going to retcon the whole thing and make all of the investment in any sort of character development null and void.

They either have the eldrazi to fling at this, or (even worse imo) is Teferi doing some time %$#%$#% and making it like the whole thing never happened at all.

Either of those thing happen and I'm pretty much off the lore train for good.

I might even abandon the game altogether. I got into this game nearly 20 years ago because the lore of Yawgmoth and Phyrexia was so intriguing to me on some cool af trading cards. Pokemon, who? MTG all day after I saw Unworthy Dead and the old-school Phyrexian Gargantua.

Honestly, I think they're either going to retcon the whole thing and make all of the investment in any sort of character development null and void.

They either have the eldrazi to fling at this, or (even worse imo) is Teferi doing some time %$#%$#% and making it like the whole thing never happened at all.

Either of those thing happen and I'm pretty much off the lore train for good.

I dunno, man. You forgot that Ashiok went looking for New Phyrexia too. It is entirely possible this is all a bad dream.

You know, somehow I might even prefer this if the story goes the way I suspect it will...

Frankly, from the moment they overpowered the new Phyrexians so much that they can compleat planeswalkers into sleeper agents of all things out of nowhere without even altering the character at all until it's later triggered on demand, the story was doomed. When Ajani was turned into a sleeper agent while still being Ajani in the mean time, I checked out completely. Between that and the glistening oil, there's no longer any possible satisfactory resolution to this story. They were trying to make the Phyrexians look scary, but what I saw was them making the Phyrexians exactly as powerful as they needed to be for whatever arbitrary plot points they wanted to force. The whole "whoopsy-doodle, no blowing the sylex!" thing only makes the obvious contrivances more intolerable. The sooner they purge New Phyrexia completely, the sooner they can get back to telling potentially adequate stories. If that means time shenanigans to make it so none of this ever happened, that's fine by me.

So very agreed on this. At what point did Ajani get Phyrexian-ized? How the heck did it happen without him being aware of it? Like, they tried to show the "horror" of being Phyrexian-ized when Ajani realized he lost control of his body and stole Karn away from the heroes, but it literally came out of nowhere. Zero plot indication that Ajani could have been a sleeper agent except him leaving to go and find Ertai in a cave (I think). It's like the writers were like "Oh, we want to surprise the reader with a cool plot twist. Let's choose the character literally no one suspects and make them the sleeper planeswalker!"

And I agree that New Phyrexia being able to Phyrexianize Planeswalkers is nonsense. Even Yawgmoth himself had a Planeswalker pith-ed and flayed open and wasn't able to compleat them. If the OG Phyrexian GOD wasn't able to figure out the Spark, how could New Phyrexia somehow figure it out? Sorry, the Mending DEPOWERED Planeswalkers to expressly make them not as god-like or easy to manipulate from a Spark perspective. At least Bolas' plan actually made a bit of sense; you have to kill the Planeswalker in order to take their spark.

@benjameenbear no it's mostly people wanting the two to cross over, with a few people trying to use the fact that Tamiyo, Nissa and Nahiri have been compleated as the set up for this.

The fact the parental Kenriths die and according to wizards "after MoM the multiverse will be changed forever"* make time travel imo unlikely even more so as the Brothers War went out of its way to show how hard it was for Teferi to go back in time and him doing everything he can't to NOT change anything when he did.

My personal theory is Elsepth will use the sylex + halo to make a legacy weapon 2.0 that will send out a purifying /healing wave vs a destructive one. Some compleated characters and planeswalks will die, some will be partly healed and will have a Picard post Locutus/Seven of Nine arc and some will remain rogue Phyrexians villains/the plot. The world tree will also be purified and will still connect the multiverse so non-planeswalks can now travel between planes.

* they could be hyperbolic /lying about the statement but the Phyrexians are the last of the big three antagonists of the story arcs they started with Lorwyn/Alara so I could see them have another (but softer this time around) reboot of the lore like with Time Spiral.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. There's enough truth to that meme that I legit thought it was where they're taking the plot.

I guess I could root for Elspeth using the Sylex and Halo to make a Legacy Weapon 2.0? If that happens, then Karn needs to for reals die. Having Karn sacrifice himself to the Legacy 2.0 could be an interesting way to tie up his story arc and reflect Urza's story in a cool way. "As the creator died, so does the creation" is interesting for a plot arc, especially when Karn's been trying to run away from his past (or fix it) for so long.

Here's the plot problem they need to resolve: even if Phyrexia loses, if ANY amount of oil gets onto a member of the winning team, then Phyrexia still wins. They are literally undefeatable as currently portrayed. And as far as I'm aware, we have no explicit confirmation that Halo actually reverses the Phyrexianization process. So WOTC has a plot dilemma: how can we have our heroes defeat the undefeatable villains we've created? The easy answer is "Teferi time travels and reverses everything". A more challenging and satisfying answer would be for Elspeth to do something cool. The harder, more realistic answer is that they don't. Phyrexia compleats iconic planes and creates a new Mirrodin Besieged story arc for each of these planes. I think this approach would legitimize the supremacy of Phyrexia while still offering a NEW WAY for Phyrexia to be defeated: the introduction of a new Plane/Planeswalker who can ACTUALLY reverse Phyrexianization or otherwise bind Phyrexia to a specific plane so they can be contained and eradicated.

The reason Phyrexia was originally able to be defeated is because Yawgmoth had connected himself to ALL of his creations, then took his ENTIRE form/essence and put it into one specific location. Because ALL of his essence was connected to ALL Phyrexians, the Weatherlight scouring him with pure white mana worked and Phyrexia failed. This isn't the case with New Phyrexia.

Not sure where I'm going with this rant. Except maybe to say WOTC's creative story-telling team is probably understaffed or under-resourced and any competent story-teller could probably wrap up this arc better than them.

[benjameenbear]

There's another possibility: it doesn't all get reset. This could be the Transformers: The Movie moment, where they actually kill off half the characters(so they can sell you new toys).

This is basically the only option that would satisfy me. I could really vibe with a more multi-generational setting where every character dies eventually. Or like maybe there could be some deity-type characters on the periphery but the main characters are replaced every couple years or so, either via retirement or "retirement".

That said I don't read into the lore and never really cared that much about it beyond a passing interest. I'm only really aware of it through the cards and occasional conversations.

Also btw my first (properly) published work came in the mail, in the short story anthology. The one with the certified-unique take on an axis-victory alt history I talked about forever ago? It's here if anyone is interested - it's got a pretty stylish hard cover tbh, Haven't read a word of anyone else's stories but I'm sure they're excellent. Consider this my extremely half-assed attempt at marketing.

https://www.flametreepublishing.com/alt ... 72728.html

Sir! As a professional marketer, I encourage you to be BOLD in promoting your work! Getting published is awesome. Good work and well done!

[DirkGently]

I was mostly being sarcastic, because WOTC tries to "kill" their main characters by turning them Phyrexian to try and get some sort of emotional impact. But they fail. They SHOULD be ready to ACTUALLY kill of a character. Like, Venser is somehow alive?! WTF? They can't even legitimately kill their characters off, much less get rid of soft/bloated prose.

Based solely on the cards, I thought Venser was more of a mechanized zombie, or like a robot using his body as a component. I assumed it didn't have any of his actual personality in there. But then I don't read any of the actual books.

If I'm correct, I'm totally down for the enemy to staple one of the heroes onto a killbot as a hood ornament. That's pretty savage. If he's actually HIM in there, though, then yeah lame. Resurrection is really hard to do in a way that doesn't feel cheap.

Also btw my first (properly) published work came in the mail, in the short story anthology. The one with the certified-unique take on an axis-victory alt history I talked about forever ago? It's here if anyone is interested - it's got a pretty stylish hard cover tbh, Haven't read a word of anyone else's stories but I'm sure they're excellent. Consider this my extremely half-assed attempt at marketing.

https://www.flametreepublishing.com/alt ... 72728.html

Sir! As a professional marketer, I encourage you to be BOLD in promoting your work! Getting published is awesome. Good work and well done!

Lol I'm super not a marketer. Frankly I'd love to post my story here in its entirety, but now that somebody paid money to publish it, that seems unfair to them, and ofc I'd like to get published again. $200 woooooooo.

[5colorsrainbow]

I'm not against some compleated walkers coming back. It could be fun to explore the guilt/feelings they have after it. Just hope it isn't a full reboot

I agree, I want consequences for the completed characters. This could mean death but as I mentions with the Star Trek characters there is story potential to be have for a character dealing with the guilt of their actions and trying to reclaim their "humanity " and identity.

I was mostly being sarcastic, because WOTC tries to "kill" their main characters by turning them Phyrexian to try and get some sort of emotional impact. But they fail. They SHOULD be ready to ACTUALLY kill of a character. Like, Venser is somehow alive?! WTF? They can't even legitimately kill their characters off, much less get rid of soft/bloated prose.

Based solely on the cards, I thought Venser was more of a mechanized zombie, or like a robot using his body as a component. I assumed it didn't have any of his actual personality in there. But then I don't read any of the actual books.

If I'm correct, I'm totally down for the enemy to staple one of the heroes onto a killbot as a hood ornament. That's pretty savage. If he's actually HIM in there, though, then yeah lame. Resurrection is really hard to do in a way that doesn't feel cheap.

This is basically it, Vensers corpse is just woven into one of Sheoldreds murder bots and isn't truely him resurrected.

[toctheyounger]

Here's the plot problem they need to resolve: even if Phyrexia loses, if ANY amount of oil gets onto a member of the winning team, then Phyrexia still wins. They are literally undefeatable as currently portrayed. And as far as I'm aware, we have no explicit confirmation that Halo actually reverses the Phyrexianization process. So WOTC has a plot dilemma: how can we have our heroes defeat the undefeatable villains we've created? The easy answer is "Teferi time travels and reverses everything". A more challenging and satisfying answer would be for Elspeth to do something cool. The harder, more realistic answer is that they don't. Phyrexia compleats iconic planes and creates a new Mirrodin Besieged story arc for each of these planes. I think this approach would legitimize the supremacy of Phyrexia while still offering a NEW WAY for Phyrexia to be defeated: the introduction of a new Plane/Planeswalker who can ACTUALLY reverse Phyrexianization or otherwise bind Phyrexia to a specific plane so they can be contained and eradicated.

The wider, narrative based problem to me is one of two things. Firstly, we're all circling around how the hell they do this without it looking stupid, rendering any previous plot points obsolete and still being captivating to the fan base. I actually don't know how they achieve this. I think there's a pretty good chance they actually do one of the things we've suggested, which would be a hate crime against the essence of the game. There's also Elspeth, we all know she's not dead, she could do some sort of messiah act and give her essence to the sylex and halo to, I dunno, targeted therapy style destroy every single molecule of oil within the multiverse. It doesn't sound much less stupid though.

As Dirk said too, there's gotta be stakes, otherwise this just becomes 'same bat time, same bat channel' monster of the month garbage. And while the MtG lore of old has never been perfect it certainly deserves better than that. I want blood. I want characters to die, otherwise Phyrexia isn't %$#%. And that can't be, it's literally the big bad of the IP. Killing the compleated walkers proper dead is a start, but there needs to be stakes for the remainders too. Teferi should die(I think he will). Jace should perma-die. Ajani should perma-die. Nissa needs to die after they retconned her romance with Chandra because them walking it halfway back now is super lame. Melira should die. No one should have plot armor, because with this arc of lore the stakes should be that high. You know better than most here how much I love the Malazan books; my favorite characters go through pure misery (or they just get scragged by getting into fights bigger than they are). Toc gets an eye put out, abducted by an alien race and tortured mentally and physically, his consciousness is transferred to a new body at which point he is betrayed by his employers and left for dead, and later in the same book sacrifices himself to save a group of children at which point he's killed and his face is skinned as a tribal fetish for a clan of savages. And he's still not done. He joins the pantheon of gods and becomes the gatekeeper for the realm of the dead. I guess the point is if you can't bear to kill or hurt a cash cow like Jace or whoever else, there's no reason for your audience to have any skin in the game either. You don't have to go true grimdark but if Phyrexia can't get past plot armor then we might as well dispense with lore altogether and just make this game a vessel for crossovers in entirety.

Lastly what the actual flip do they do after this? Obviously the game continues, but how on earth are you actually gonna top Phyrexia? They're running out of big bads from MtG of yore. Leshrac is still around, as is their minion Lim-Dul, Baron Sengir is still kicking presumably, but following up the (presumably) permanent death of the multiverse's biggest foil is real tough. The only other alternative to a great next album is to leave this arc as 'The End.....?' And that's just as devoid of any sort of commitment or chutzpah.

I'm real interested in this from the wider perspective, because if they %$#% this up it has the potential to be the beginning of the end of MtG lore in a way that not even WotS was.

[Legend]

It's another thing entirely to make fun of a disabled person you fired and insinuate that you fired them because of said disability.

Equity at its finest.

[BeneTleilax]

Equity at its finest.

What are you on about? To be clear, I don't think Musk is the archdevil of America or the god of capitalism or whatever folks on the left make him out to be. Musk is skub. He's a loud, rich businessman who's extended himself beyond any of expertise, and so now the vultures are circling. But why defend him, on this? Purely to own the libs? He unfired the guy after his lawyers said he couldn't, or at least he's trying to, so this doesn't even serve him.

[Legend]

Equity at its finest.

What are you on about? To be clear, I don't think Musk is the archdevil of America or the god of capitalism or whatever folks on the left make him out to be. Musk is skub. He's a loud, rich businessman who's extended himself beyond any of expertise, and so now the vultures are circling. But why defend him, on this? Purely to own the libs? He unfired the guy after his lawyers said he couldn't, or at least he's trying to, so this doesn't even serve him.

Just a little fun. Didn't intend to defend or own.

[TheGildedGoose]

No @ required. The Fascist Elephant Signal works every time.

Equity at its finest.

Just a little fun. Didn't intend to defend or own.

what if I… said my ableist beliefs… out loud .. aha ha, just kidding.. unless..?

[pokken]

I just want to say that pigeon holing Legend as a right wing whackadoodle seems pretty unfair. He has definitely shown a willingness to engage thoughtfully and critically despite having some takes that make me go oof sometimes too.

I'm a pretty rabid leftist but I don't get fascist troll vibes and while I really struggle to endorse any aspect of right wing thinking people have a right to be conservative however wrongheaded I think it is . And there are far more impenetrable brain pans than his out there.

[TheGildedGoose]

I just want to say that pigeon holing Legend as a right wing whackadoodle seems pretty unfair. He has definitely shown a willingness to engage thoughtfully and critically despite having some takes that make me go oof sometimes too.

So did Richard Spencer. How did that go, again? Commending someone for being thoughtful and critical in the support of abhorrent and harmful ideology misses the point. There are thoughtful and critical takes supporting genocide, economic inequality, racism, and a litany of other repugnant beliefs. I don't care how cogent and articulate an argument is. I care that people will be harmed by the realization of those beliefs. Period.

To be explicit: I'm not saying he supports those things at all. I just use them as an example.

I'm a pretty rabid leftist but I don't get fascist troll vibes and while I really struggle to endorse any aspect of right wing thinking people have a right to be conservative however wrongheaded I think it is . And there are far more impenetrable brain pans than his out there.

Sunshine is the best disinfectant. I don't want to quash anyone's speech, but if something is said that I vehemently disagree with not only is it my First Amendment right to disagree, it's my duty as an active participant in democracy to challenge those beliefs to improve society.

Do I expect to change his mind? Not at all. The arguments and disagreements are wholly performative. I'm not talking to him, I'm talking to the audience.

For what it's worth, I think Democrats (and especially neoliberals) are fascist-adjacent. Republicans are more honest about their support of things like eradicating transgenderism, criminalizing homelessness, and expanding the reach of government to dictate morality (the rootin' tootin' Rules for Thee, Not for Me). Democrats have no qualms working for massive businesses or supporting policies that adversely affect society, but hide behind the lie that they support workers, marginalized groups, and equality. In a way, I prefer the honesty of Republicans, because at least what you see is what you get. I don't equate the two, but dang, feeling unrepresented in policymaking sucks.

[Jemolk]

For what it's worth, I think Democrats (and especially neoliberals) are fascist-adjacent. Republicans are more honest about their support of things like eradicating transgenderism, criminalizing homelessness, and expanding the reach of government to dictate morality (the rootin' tootin' Rules for Thee, Not for Me). Democrats have no qualms working for massive businesses or supporting policies that adversely affect society, but hide behind the lie that they support workers, marginalized groups, and equality. In a way, I prefer the honesty of Republicans, because at least what you see is what you get. I don't equate the two, but dang, feeling unrepresented in policymaking sucks.

Boy howdy, that's a mood. I feel incredibly uncomfortable even approaching endorsement of that view, but it's definitely something I've got a lot of sympathy for. What's it going to take to get something to happen that's actually good?

(That's a rhetorical question; the answer is direct action of some sort. We're going to have to build something new if it's going to happen at all. And doing that is probably going to involve getting shot at, regardless of how peacefully we do it.)

[TheGildedGoose]

For what it's worth, I think Democrats (and especially neoliberals) are fascist-adjacent. Republicans are more honest about their support of things like eradicating transgenderism, criminalizing homelessness, and expanding the reach of government to dictate morality (the rootin' tootin' Rules for Thee, Not for Me). Democrats have no qualms working for massive businesses or supporting policies that adversely affect society, but hide behind the lie that they support workers, marginalized groups, and equality. In a way, I prefer the honesty of Republicans, because at least what you see is what you get. I don't equate the two, but dang, feeling unrepresented in policymaking sucks.

Boy howdy, that's a mood. I feel incredibly uncomfortable even approaching endorsement of that view, but it's definitely something I've got a lot of sympathy for. What's it going to take to get something to happen that's actually good?

(That's a rhetorical question; the answer is direct action of some sort. We're going to have to build something new if it's going to happen at all. And doing that is probably going to involve getting shot at, regardless of how peacefully we do it.)

We have nothing to lose but our chains. And lives, I guess.

[Hermes_]

You guys remind me of one friend of mine who always bugs me with a comment that while it's what he believes it has very little to do with the reality that we deal with.

[tstorm823]

We have nothing to lose but our chains. And lives, I guess.

Sounds to me like you're ignoring everything important in life. Like Magic cards.

[duducrash]

I work from home and I really miss interaction, so I began binging podcasts. It was mostly true crime since there is plenty of that and some really good. But I was finding some really nasty ones, and felt really disprespectfull. So I pivoted to history ones, but I was getting really mad at my own history, so I went to stuff I have nothing to do with and found "The troubles podcast" It is really interesting and I recomend it highly.

[Dunadain]

As someone that does not follow the lore at all, only what I can pick up from cards (like what the heck is the sylex? it kinda sounds like a bomb they wanted to use to destroy phyrexia, but it didn't work because Jace got compleated?), I tried at one point but I found it not worth my effort, too many actually good stories out there for me to keep up with MTG and D&D lore. I did read the first 3 books of R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt series, and they were actually really good, I have no doubt MTG also has some hidden gems, but I can't be arsed to find them.

idk, for the people that actually follow the lore: is the lore THAT much worse now? it's always seemed a bit hit or miss to me, the story was made for the cards, not the cards for the story.

[ISBPathfinder]

I work from home and I really miss interaction, so I began binging podcasts. It was mostly true crime since there is plenty of that and some really good. But I was finding some really nasty ones, and felt really disprespectfull. So I pivoted to history ones, but I was getting really mad at my own history, so I went to stuff I have nothing to do with and found "The troubles podcast" It is really interesting and I recomend it highly.

I also find the lack of interaction from working from home a bit so so. I worked from a small remote office for like 5 years but even with that there were a few people I would interact with in that office. The last two years I have been working from home and its been a bit harder. Luckily my kiddo keeps me super busy outside of work and I still get out to play magic now and then.

I went to audio books. Been a big fan of litrpg books which are just nothing fantasy books but I am a sucker for them lol.

[Ulka]

I work from home and I really miss interaction, so I began binging podcasts. It was mostly true crime since there is plenty of that and some really good. But I was finding some really nasty ones, and felt really disrespectful. So I pivoted to history ones, but I was getting really mad at my own history, so I went to stuff I have nothing to do with and found "The troubles podcast" It is really interesting and I recommend it highly.

I work from home often but given I'm a therapist, yea can't say I know that feeling all to well given my work is hour conversations with people. That said I am a huge podcast listener in my downtime. I highly recommend the Glass cannon podcast if you like RPG podcasts. it very much feels like just sitting with a bunch of friends at a DnD game. Very beer and pretzels feel which I personally highly enjoy.

[duducrash]

I work from home and I really miss interaction, so I began binging podcasts. It was mostly true crime since there is plenty of that and some really good. But I was finding some really nasty ones, and felt really disrespectful. So I pivoted to history ones, but I was getting really mad at my own history, so I went to stuff I have nothing to do with and found "The troubles podcast" It is really interesting and I recommend it highly.

I work from home often but given I'm a therapist, yea can't say I know that feeling all to well given my work is hour conversations with people. That said I am a huge podcast listener in my downtime. I highly recommend the Glass cannon podcast if you like RPG podcasts. it very much feels like just sitting with a bunch of friends at a DnD game. Very beer and pretzels feel which I personally highly enjoy.

I'll check it out! The problem with rpg pods for me is that sometimes I focus too much on a task and miss some important info and have to rewind, and the names are super different and with somewhat difused attention is hard to keep up

[Hermes_]

I work from home and I really miss interaction, so I began binging podcasts. It was mostly true crime since there is plenty of that and some really good. But I was finding some really nasty ones, and felt really disprespectfull. So I pivoted to history ones, but I was getting really mad at my own history, so I went to stuff I have nothing to do with and found "The troubles podcast" It is really interesting and I recomend it highly.

should check out The Thing About Pam, you' 'll be wondering are they REALLY THAT dumb?

[benjameenbear]

The wider, narrative based problem to me is one of two things. Firstly, we're all circling around how the hell they do this without it looking stupid, rendering any previous plot points obsolete and still being captivating to the fan base. I actually don't know how they achieve this. I think there's a pretty good chance they actually do one of the things we've suggested, which would be a hate crime against the essence of the game. There's also Elspeth, we all know she's not dead, she could do some sort of messiah act and give her essence to the sylex and halo to, I dunno, targeted therapy style destroy every single molecule of oil within the multiverse. It doesn't sound much less stupid though.

As Dirk said too, there's gotta be stakes, otherwise this just becomes 'same bat time, same bat channel' monster of the month garbage. And while the MtG lore of old has never been perfect it certainly deserves better than that. I want blood. I want characters to die, otherwise Phyrexia isn't %$#%. And that can't be, it's literally the big bad of the IP. Killing the compleated walkers proper dead is a start, but there needs to be stakes for the remainders too. Teferi should die(I think he will). Jace should perma-die. Ajani should perma-die. Nissa needs to die after they retconned her romance with Chandra because them walking it halfway back now is super lame. Melira should die. No one should have plot armor, because with this arc of lore the stakes should be that high. You know better than most here how much I love the Malazan books; my favorite characters go through pure misery (or they just get scragged by getting into fights bigger than they are). Toc gets an eye put out, abducted by an alien race and tortured mentally and physically, his consciousness is transferred to a new body at which point he is betrayed by his employers and left for dead, and later in the same book sacrifices himself to save a group of children at which point he's killed and his face is skinned as a tribal fetish for a clan of savages. And he's still not done. He joins the pantheon of gods and becomes the gatekeeper for the realm of the dead. I guess the point is if you can't bear to kill or hurt a cash cow like Jace or whoever else, there's no reason for your audience to have any skin in the game either. You don't have to go true grimdark but if Phyrexia can't get past plot armor then we might as well dispense with lore altogether and just make this game a vessel for crossovers in entirety.

Lastly what the actual flip do they do after this? Obviously the game continues, but how on earth are you actually gonna top Phyrexia? They're running out of big bads from MtG of yore. Leshrac is still around, as is their minion Lim-Dul, Baron Sengir is still kicking presumably, but following up the (presumably) permanent death of the multiverse's biggest foil is real tough. The only other alternative to a great next album is to leave this arc as 'The End.....?' And that's just as devoid of any sort of commitment or chutzpah.

I'm real interested in this from the wider perspective, because if they %$#% this up it has the potential to be the beginning of the end of MtG lore in a way that not even WotS was.

I agree wholeheartedly with all of this. Your point is spot on; I'm not expecting the writers to go full Malazhan with Phyrexia (I tried picking it up again... and put it down again. Sorry, Toc!). But there absolutely needs to be some sort of REAL stakes in order to resolve this undefeatable villain they've created through poor writing. Any sort of plot resolution that does not involve the death of multiple major characters will be unsatisfying. I mean, they're kinda setting up Elspeth to be a Savior in some form or fashion, which I guess I'm vaguely ok with since Elspeth is one of the early OG Planeswalkers to have been introduced relative to the game.

You also bring up one of the major problems and fears of mine; Phyrexia is THE Big Bad of MTG. Even more so than Bolas. Without Phyrexia and the Urza's Saga, Weatherlight, and Invasion Cycles having been created, I sincerely doubt MTG as a game would be as big as it is. The Pro Players broke the format with cards from these sets (lol)... but regular casual people built the lifeblood of the business because of their commitment and investment in the storyline (on top of the ingenious design of the game, I'd argue). Bolas was fine as a Big Bad because he's fairly isolated and individualized; kill or contain him, and his absence isn't going to fundamentally alter the core universe of your IP.

That's why I think this bothers me so much: killing or defeating Phyrexia WOULD fundamentally alter the core universe in almost every way. Phyrexia and dealing with Phyrexia has affected literally DECADES of story-telling and card design. Removing or defeating the primary protagonist to the major storyline of their most successful story blocks (hell, I'd argue one of the most successful villains in sci-fi lore) in ANY kind of unsatisfying way WILL alienate a large segment of their fans. Especially the fans who have the money to actually buy paper products (since those young whippersnappers are more into MTG Arena, I'd guess). Because you're exactly right, @toctheyounger: what in the blue blazes will they be able to do after their primary antagonist is dead? Voldemort's dead, and that's why there ain't any more Harry Potter books. Sauron was defeated... and there ain't any more new LOTR novels or post-Sauron stories that are successful (RIP Tolkein...). Killing off your main villain is tantamount to literally killing your "franchise". And since Phyrexia is one of MTG's biggest IP "franchises", you'd essentially be killing off one of the major things that makes your game work from an audience buy-in perspective. And like HP or LOTR, you probably ain't making any future spinoffs that will be successful after the demise of your Big Bad.

As someone that does not follow the lore at all, only what I can pick up from cards (like what the heck is the sylex? it kinda sounds like a bomb they wanted to use to destroy phyrexia, but it didn't work because Jace got compleated?), I tried at one point but I found it not worth my effort, too many actually good stories out there for me to keep up with MTG and D&D lore. I did read the first 3 books of R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt series, and they were actually really good, I have no doubt MTG also has some hidden gems, but I can't be arsed to find them.

idk, for the people that actually follow the lore: is the lore THAT much worse now? it's always seemed a bit hit or miss to me, the story was made for the cards, not the cards for the story.

Yeah, the Sylex was what Urza used to destroy his brother Mishra in The Brothers' War. It's an ancient artifact that literally initiates a pseudo-nuclear Armaggeddon (can't remember how to spell that word).

For reference, any stories involving Bolas BEFORE the War of the Spark debacle are actually worth reading. My favorite block of stories are the Innistrad stories (The Gitrog story is STILL one of my favorites) and the Amonkhet/Ixalan story block. Seriously, the character development and plot of the Amonkhet and Ixalan block were some of the best stories for MTG I've ever seen. The Vraska/Jace romance was LEGIT and they f&*%ing TRASHED it. This was actually my major trigger point in losing faith in the WOTC storytelling.

You're correct that the story evolved to grow around the cards. But around the time of the Weatherlight saga, MTG/WOTC decided to make a coherent storyline around Gerrard and his crew. So, the story began to inform/influence the cards in the 90's. As the popularity of the game and story grew, the story began to influence more and more of the card design. Now, they're pretty tied together at this point IMO. Which means that any story-telling mistakes that are made personally affect my view of the cards and the company's brand as a whole. But this is just for me, not saying it's true for everyone else lol. I'm a devoted Vorthos nerd when it comes to my MTG involvement. But I imagine a decent segment of WOTC's audience feels similarly.

[Legend]

what if I… said my ableist beliefs… out loud .. aha ha, just kidding.. unless..?

King David requested that Mephibosheth, who was lame in both feet, "eat at my table like one of the king's sons". And so he did. I believe that's how disabled people should be treated.