White Speculation Play

[pokken]

I feel like the people who strip mine karoos and stuff for "Value" are people I don't want to play with much, but sometimes you get got.

[PrimevalCommander]

Last time I used a Tectonic Edge was on a Field of the Dead not too long ago. Felt good . Before that...I can't even remember. I'm the only person I know who really abuses the land slots. I haven't targeted a Bounce land in years and years and agree that they are bad targets. Which is why they are making a comeback in my decks and my friend's too.

If I had quite a few lands in play, and saw a Scorched Ruins from the player in the strongest position at the table, I would be sorely tempted to slow them down a bit with my Tec. Edge. I wouldn't do it early game, and I wouldn't do it to the catch up player, but I would definitely do it to my Titania, Protector of Argoth deck who does land shenanigans all day long (and plays Natural Balance). And I wouldn't fault someone else for doing it to me when I play that deck. Hence my apprehension in playing it, but I want to try it out and see what happens. Haven't had it in play yet though.

It wouldn't take too many stars to align for something like Lotus Vale to eat a Wasteland from my side, and I wouldn't feel bad about it. Though 80% of the time I just make mana with my Strip Mines since I'm usually the one with the scarriest lands in play anyway. I did loan my brother 2x Kessig Wolf Run and he has been trampling over me ever since . That land is now kill-on-sight for how many games it has won me, and lost me when on the other end of it.

[BeneTleilax]

If land recursion becomes a bigger part of how white ramps, we need cheaper fetching for white. Even just a Prismatic Vista that can only get basic plains. I'd hate to see white become more relevant, but only for those who can buy all the fetches and shocks they need.

[pokken]

If land recursion becomes a bigger part of how white ramps, we need cheaper fetching for white. Even just a Prismatic Vista that can only get basic plains. I'd hate to see white become more relevant, but only for those who can buy all the fetches and shocks they need.

It would be really cool to see some "entomb" effects for plains, a la Endless Horizons (which is just adjacent of course, but it'd be cool to see an X spell or something that put that many plains in the bin) or Realms Uncharted

There are a lot of cycling lands too, been thinking about trying some of those out

[Serenade]

Get your Planar Births now!

[BeneTleilax]

It would be really cool to see some "entomb" effects for plains

It would. The Restoration of Eiganjo // Architect of Restoration already does this in an incredibly roundabout way (though I still think the card is neat and love it limited), and I'd love to see a cleaner version of the effect. Probably stapled to a creature because entombing a basic isn't worth a card on its own.

[pzbw7z]

It would be really cool to see some "entomb" effects for plains, a la Endless Horizons (which is just adjacent of course, but it'd be cool to see an X spell or something that put that many plains in the bin) or Realms Uncharted

Endless Horizons is functionally similar, although only one at a time can come back.

[darrenhabib]

I remember this thread and as I'm looking at Scholar of New Horizons and running lands Scorched Ruins, Lotus Vale, Lotus Field and bounce lands are all very effective for this strategy.
Scorched Ruins seems to be about the same prices as a year ago at about $32 but climbed as high as $90.
Lotus Vale gone up about $10, but did a similar price jump to over $90.

Of note Retreat to Coralhelm with Scholar of New Horizons let's you get as many lands into play as opponent with the right counter strategy and obviously shines with these type of lands.

I would definitely recommend getting these lands if you're a white commander player, these lands will only get better for strategies.

[onering]

The rare Necro where it makes more sense to Necro than to create a new post.

[ISBPathfinder]

They still haven't exploded yet but we keep seeing more density of this effect and its still very possible to see some sort of less lands concept in the command zone which could push the effect further yet. I have used less lands on a few concepts in the last year including a Hinata, Dawn-Crowned deck that leveraged a lot of mana into X spells, a Winota, Joiner of Forces deck where it just happened that a few key humans cared about less lands, and a Azor, the Lawbringer deck that could funnel mana into more resources.

I think that less lands is a very reasonable concept especially when trying to ramp outside of green when coffers and friends don't quite work. It seems to work best when you want to have some ramp core to a white based non green deck though in what I have experienced.

[pokken]

I recently discovered that Strict Proctor combos with these lands and it's bananas

Wrongo despite what the card says these were redone to be replacement effects. Doh. It's annoying because I kinda knew that but didn't put it together. (I knew you couldn't play them and then tap)

[ISBPathfinder]

I recently discovered that Strict Proctor combos with these lands and it's bananas

I get with Lotus Field as it uses the stack but does this work against Lotus Vale? I ask because that card doesn't use the stack, its a replacement effect so it seems like Proctor might not work with that.

A somewhat related rulings form I asked about.

[Gamazson]

I recently discovered that Strict Proctor combos with these lands and it's bananas

Ohhhh. This would also apply to the Ravinca bounce lands too no? IE: Boros Garrison. It's debatable if not needing to return a land to hand is actually an advantage, but it is an interesting thought.

[pokken]

I recently discovered that Strict Proctor combos with these lands and it's bananas

I get with Lotus Field as it uses the stack but does this work against Lotus Vale? I ask because that card doesn't use the stack, its a replacement effect so it seems like Proctor might not work with that.

A somewhat related rulings form I asked about.

Well. The card was retemplated. Womp womp. Scorched ruins too.

I seriously hate functional errata but I can see why it's necessary because these enter untapped. Wow I'm dumb.

[DirkGently]

It's debatable if not needing to return a land to hand is actually an advantage

No it isn't.

Do you have any idea how popular the karoo lands would be if they didn't require you to bounce a land?

[pokken]

It's debatable if not needing to return a land to hand is actually an advantage

No it isn't.

Do you have any idea how popular the karoo lands would be if they didn't require you to bounce a land?

It'd make 5 color karoos the only deck in commander.

[pokken]

I recently discovered that Strict Proctor combos with these lands and it's bananas

Ohhhh. This would also apply to the Ravinca bounce lands too no? IE: Boros Garrison. It's debatable if not needing to return a land to hand is actually an advantage, but it is an interesting thought.

In case you missed it these were apparently retemplated as replacement effects.

Does work with field and karoos tho.

[Gamazson]

Looks like it still works with Ravinia bounce lands....

Here is the oral text for Boros Garrison from Gatherer

Boros Garrison enters the battlefield tapped.

When Boros Garrison enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand.

Here the text for Karoo:

Karoo enters the battlefield tapped.

When Karoo enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you return an untapped Plains you control to its owner's hand.

and here is the text for Scorched Ruins as a comparison:

If Scorched Ruins would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Scorched Ruins onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.

[RowanKeltizar]

The problem is, the commander for such a deck would have to be pretty compelling to be worthwhile given the myriad of land strategies available in other colors besides white. All of the things that go well with sacrificing lands aren't white: playing lands from graveyard, multiple land drops, landfall, etc...

The first commander that comes to mind is The Gitrog Monster where you have a direct payoff for saccing lands in the command zone. I think both of those reserve list lands would be quite good in there. You care about sacrificing lands and you've got extra land drops. Crucible of Worlds and Ramunap Excavator can let you replay those sacced lands with very little tempo loss. Did we see a spike on these lands when Gitrog entered the fray? I have no idea, but if we didn't see an increase then, i wonder if we ever will given the mighty frogs synergies with these lands.

Both Windgrace variants would probably also like these lands. Lord Windgrace Soul of Windgrace.

But I do see the value of a land strategy outside of green as being a fun thing to build around, but i do wonder how much density of cards would even make that remotely viable. For example, will there every be deck where Aura Fracture is a desirable card?


There are quite a few ways to sacrifice lands for value in red, so most likely i see this hipster commander being boros colors if it were not to lean on existing strategies for lands.

[wildfire393]

I've had a fair amount of success using white Catchup ramp alongisde the Lotus Vale type lands. I've also found they work very well with a number of other effects like Faith's Reward type cards and Sun Titan and its ilk. I've had the best success in WRx builds, because red gives you Nahiri's Lithoforming and Aggressive Mining to make further use of this. Mining + Archaeomancer's Map is a really solid combo, giving you a ton of draw without hampering your draw too hard, and if you ever resolve a decent sized Lithoforming into Second Sunrise or something it's just backbreaking.

Oh, and Explorer's Scope is a primo card for this strategy. Dropping a Lotus Vale is a great way to put you two lands behind everyone else, at which point you can ramp 3 easy peasy. It also works really well with fetchlands as you can activate them and respond to the trigger while your landcount is lower. The whole thing meshes together quite nicely into a strategy that will manage to ramp fairly hard with some consistency.

[pokken]

I play the whole white catchup package in my Breena, the Demagogue deck with basically no synergy with the commander -- just with the deck as a whole (since the ramp creatures like Loyal Warhound are fine turn 2 attackers, which Breena craves).

I've got a thread about it somewhere, or maybe a subsection in my land ramp thread.

That deck consistently outramp almost everyone except dedicated landfall decks, which it can keep up with.

The suite is:

• Land Tax
• Weathered Wayfarer
• Cartographer's Hawk
• Knight of the White Orchid
• Loyal Warhound
• Stoic Farmer
• Boreas Charger
• Keeper of the Accord
• Scholarship Sponsor
• Sun Titan
• Tithe
• brought Back
• Cosmic Intervention
• Sevinne's Reclamation
• Archaeomancer's Map
• Scorched Ruins
• Lotus field
• Lotus vale
• Orzhov Basilica
• Ancient Tomb

(though I've since cut sponsor and stoic farmer I think, since Deep Gnome Terramancer came out)

[ISBPathfinder]

Its kind of a dick move but running the land sac tactics also sets you up to run things like Balancing Act. This effect can be a bit adjacent to a LD effect but I doubt it would ever go super deep on someone's lands unless they decided to keep their boardstate over their lands. It does play well to having less but more powerful lands. I like the effect for a more controlling, permanent light strategy that might be playing less lands.

[Dunadain]

These white ramp cards are too fair. Something like: enchantment, W, whenever you gain 1 life add W to your mana pool

I would not want to live in whatever hellscape such a card would be printed in XD.

[Cyberium]

I wonder if MLD in style of Urza's Sylex would show up more in the future, ones that punish over-ramper while sparing the rest of the table. I wouldn't mind seeing a spell version that would, say, makes the player with highest land-count sacrifice down to three lands if it's it's cast within first three turns (worded like Serra Avenger), or sacrifice down to six lands otherwise . White doesn't have to be good at ramping, it just have to have a way to deal with players who're TOO fast.

[wildfire393]

I play the whole white catchup package in my Breena, the Demagogue deck with basically no synergy with the commander -- just with the deck as a whole (since the ramp creatures like Loyal Warhound are fine turn 2 attackers, which Breena craves).

I've got a thread about it somewhere, or maybe a subsection in my land ramp thread.

That deck consistently outramp almost everyone except dedicated landfall decks, which it can keep up with.

The suite is:

• Land Tax
• Weathered Wayfarer
• Cartographer's Hawk
• Knight of the White Orchid
• Loyal Warhound
• Stoic Farmer
• Boreas Charger
• Keeper of the Accord
• Scholarship Sponsor
• Sun Titan
• Tithe
• brought Back
• Cosmic Intervention
• Sevinne's Reclamation
• Archaeomancer's Map
• Scorched Ruins
• Lotus field
• Lotus vale
• Orzhov Basilica
• Ancient Tomb

(though I've since cut sponsor and stoic farmer I think, since Deep Gnome Terramancer came out)

This looks like a fairly extensive list, but there's a few things that tie into the strategy that you may have overlooked:

Trove Warden gives you another Sun Titan effect that works particularly well with fetchlands.
Explorer's Scope is just so so good.
Isolated Watchtower is a solid option in mono-colored decks and can be workable in two-colored decks.
Guildless Commons gives you another Karoo
Fetchlands are really a must have because of how they can interact with Sun Titan/Reclamation/Warden and the instant-speed things like Wayfarer, Scope, and Watchtower.
If you've got a suitable density of fetches and nonbasic plains, both Emeria Shepherd and Emeria, the Sky Ruin are great payoffs.
Second Sunrise and Faith's Reward are also capable cards for returning sacked stuff. Maybe not worth it unless you've got the red package.
Aerial Surveyor is another Cartographer's Hawk type.
Oath of Lieges tends to ramp the whole table but this can keep your other ramp online longer.
The new Scholar of New Horizons is A++
Scouting Hawk and Space Marine Scout are other Knight of the White Orchid effects though definitely a little weaker.