[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Howling Mine

[toctheyounger]

For all intents and purposes this is vanilla. The flavor is nice, but it is just a beater. That said, sometimes that's just what you need. It's almost guaranteed to drop life totals on account of trample, it'll stick around with both hexproof and uncounterability, and that's a nice degree of finality. It's a pretty medium sure thing in a vacuum, but it is still a sure thing.

There are, however, very places that want this. Gishath, Sun's Avatar, maybe an Alena, Kessig Trapper partner build of some kind, Xenagos, God of Revels perhaps. If you're not getting in the red zone you're really not into it. If you are though, this is fairly decent, partially for the reasons that Dirk and Goose have mentioned. It's not ostensibly a threat, so it ought to stick around (both on its own merits and on account of flying below the radar) and it should smack some folks in the chops pretty nicely. If that's your thing, go forth and punch faces, if it ain't look elsewhere.

[DirkGently]

@TheAmericanSpirit I have pet cards too btw. I will shove Path of Mettle // Metzali, Tower of Triumph into any deck that can remotely support it. Generally it's because I like the mechanics and play patterns, though. I can't say I really get the appeal of a slightly-undercosted french-vanilla beater, But then, I am morally opposed to "fun" in any form.

@toctheyounger even within those contexts, I think there are enough more effective cards that this shouldn't make the cut.

While flying under the radar does have some in-game utility, unless there's some mechanical reason why it avoids threat detection I don't count it as worth much. Its consideration is relative to the strength of the table, so it doesn't mean anything in a vacuum, except that the card is kinda bad. And I don't give out points for being kinda bad.

[toctheyounger]

@toctheyounger even within those contexts, I think there are enough more effective cards that this shouldn't make the cut.

Yep, totally fair. Like I say I think there's a really, really small niche of decks that want this, and outside of dino tribal it's a tough proposition. Even in Gishath, it has questionable value given that you're probably trying to not cast it.

[ISBPathfinder]

Man I would LOVE to die to Carnage Tyrant. The scope creep of what I am experiencing these days just doesn't put that into a realistic possibility. This card only came out what like 5 years ago and I remember it was doing things in standard at the time but it feels like the things that happen in today's environments are so much more brutal than this. Obviously its never really made a good port to EDH but I feel like the pace of things getting spookier is speeding up but most of this is mostly due to the players I play against.

[DirkGently]

Yep, totally fair. Like I say I think there's a really, really small niche of decks that want this, and outside of dino tribal it's a tough proposition. Even in Gishath, it has questionable value given that you're probably trying to not cast it.

This having a higher userate than Titanoth Rex in gishath is really confusing to me. It's got +4/+5 and only loses hexproof when played off gishath, and I'd rather have a 2 mana cycler with upside than a 7/6 for 6 in my hand, at virtually any stage of the game. And rex costs pennies.

I honestly think CT is mostly coasting off its time in standard.

[Mookie]

I'd consider running Carnage Tyrant if it were legal in my Thada deck, which is generally looking for hard-to-kill evasive beaters. Unfortunately, that's a pretty niche use case, and none of my actual green decks are looking for that sort of thing. Why play a card that is just giant beater when I could play something like Soul of the Harvest or Woodfall Primus that is a beater and generates some value? Or why play a beater that attacks for 7 points of damage when I could play Ghalta, Primal Hunger, Craterhoof Behemoth, or Pathbreaker Ibex and attack for lethal?

I could maybe see it being played in beatdown-focused decks like Xenagos, God of Revels, but otherwise I'd probably look for something more synergistic.

[folding_music]

i think the combination of trample and hexproof should be enough to get some late-game kills, especially boosted with soulshriek or whatever. but the late game doesn't exist hurraaaaaaaay

[DirkGently]

@folding_music ???

The reason he's not good isn't because games end too soon, it's that there are so many stronger cards to play in the 6+ mana range.

Although maybe you're just kidding since you mentioned Soulshriek? I refuse to believe someone is seriously advocating for soulshriek.

[toctheyounger]

Yep, totally fair. Like I say I think there's a really, really small niche of decks that want this, and outside of dino tribal it's a tough proposition. Even in Gishath, it has questionable value given that you're probably trying to not cast it.

This having a higher userate than Titanoth Rex in gishath is really confusing to me. It's got +4/+5 and only loses hexproof when played off gishath, and I'd rather have a 2 mana cycler with upside than a 7/6 for 6 in my hand, at virtually any stage of the game. And rex costs pennies.

I honestly think CT is mostly coasting off its time in standard.

Totally fair again. I think there's now probably better things than either for Gishath in all fairness, but I do like that Rex gives you a use case if you're not able to get the free dinos plan on board.

You're probably right, it was a beating in standard if I recall. These days there's enough dinosaurs about that there's no requirement to fill out numbers with Tyrant unless the flavor hits you just right.

[folding_music]

soulshriek's good! and it pairs beautifully with creatures who have exactly these abilities! and it costs at least thirty dollars less than the big trample instawin beast! and it makes me enjoy playing B/G more, and makes it feel earned when it's used to beat a player! of course I'm advocating for it, the hint was in the post I posted where I advocated for it along with Carnage Tyrant in the types of decks I like

[DirkGently]

soulshriek's good! and it pairs beautifully with creatures who have exactly these abilities! and it costs at least thirty dollars less than the big trample instawin beast! and it makes me enjoy playing B/G more, and makes it feel earned when it's used to beat a player! of course I'm advocating for it, the hint was in the post I posted where I advocated for it along with Carnage Tyrant in the types of decks I like

lol okay im sorry plz calm down

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@folding_music Soulshriek is super cool, I've never seen that before. Black Berserk ! You learn something every day.

[TheGildedGoose]

Actually, Soulshriek looks pretty good in Criminal Wilson.

EDIT: jesus christ i just looked at the artist

[TheAmericanSpirit]

EDIT: jesus christ i just looked at the artist

Don't fret, it's the British Comics John Bolton, not the American Warmonger John Bolton. Neil Gaiman even made a movie about him, apparently he's kind of a big deal in that industry.

[materpillar]

Yep, totally fair. Like I say I think there's a really, really small niche of decks that want this, and outside of dino tribal it's a tough proposition. Even in Gishath, it has questionable value given that you're probably trying to not cast it.

This having a higher userate than Titanoth Rex in gishath is really confusing to me. It's got +4/+5 and only loses hexproof when played off gishath, and I'd rather have a 2 mana cycler with upside than a 7/6 for 6 in my hand, at virtually any stage of the game. And rex costs pennies.

I honestly think CT is mostly coasting off its time in standard.

I run this and don't run Titanoth Rex in my Gishath, Sun's Avatar deck. Once you hit 8+ mana, you just want to be casting Gishath, Sun's Avatar or Gishath, Sun's Avatar paying for its commander tax. Cycling isn't enough of an upside on a card that's basically a blank when you draw it. Even if I had nine mana open, I'd probably rather cast Carnage Tyrant than Titanoth Rex just because hexproof is a hell of a keyword. I run a bunch of damage doublers though, which also synergize really well with Carnage Tyrant specifically for wrecking control mages.

[plushpenguin]

I cut it from Xenagod. For a time it was really good at being difficult to stop, but it still takes 3 attacks to do lethal. I need more firepower than this. I probably only have access to 3 good attacks per game.

[DirkGently]

@materpillar early turns If you need ramp/lands to get to gishath, being able to cycle can bail you out of a weak draw. Playing a mid-power beater on your way to Gishath feels like a waste of time to me. And before 6 mana it's a pure blank.

I can see upside to hexproof if you're loading up with equipment/auras, or if your whole deck is pretty immune to targeted removal for the virtual CA. But Gishath provides lots of removal targets and doesn't typically go big on equipment. Given the other things Gishath is likely to play, I think a 7/6 trample would be extremely low on my priority list even if it didn't have hexproof. A control deck with enough CA to burn 1:1 removal against a mid-power French vanilla is probably holding a board wipe, or just a decent blocker to trade if necessary.

[materpillar]

@materpillar early turns If you need ramp/lands to get to gishath, being able to cycle can bail you out of a weak draw. Playing a mid-power beater on your way to Gishath feels like a waste of time to me. And before 6 mana it's a pure blank.

I can see upside to hexproof if you're loading up with equipment/auras, or if your whole deck is pretty immune to targeted removal for the virtual CA. But Gishath provides lots of removal targets and doesn't typically go big on equipment. Given the other things Gishath is likely to play, I think a 7/6 trample would be extremely low on my priority list even if it didn't have hexproof. A control deck with enough CA to burn 1:1 removal against a mid-power French vanilla is probably holding a board wipe, or just a decent blocker to trade if necessary.

My personal experience with Gishath, Sun's Avatar is to ramp then slap down a couple of mid-power French vanillas to force people into playing some answers. That opens the door up a bit for Gishath, Sun's Avatar to actually resolve / swing. Hard ramping straight to Gishath, Sun's Avatar with no pit stop threats tends to get him immediately answered and is far too glass cannon for my tastes. Carnage Tyrant can force out an inconveniently timed wrath whereas something else like Titanoth Rex can just eat much more general removal. Pulling out a wrath when the control deck would have rather used a Doom Blade means a later game Gishath, Sun's Avatar trigger will stick significantly more dinos on the field.

As far as mid-power dino beats, Carnage Tyrant has done pretty good work for me. Looked over my list again. I'm also running some other durdly dinos like Etali, Primal Storm, Burning Sun's Avatar, Regal Behemoth, Trapjaw Tyrant, Gigantosaurus and a handful of others. I think I like Regal Behemoth more, but I think I like Carnage Tyrant more than the other dinos mentioned here.

[duducrash]

I play a somewhat budget The Rock explorer deck on arena and play tyrant to great success

[Hawk]

A great beater for Dino tribal; this is the kind of card you want to hit off of Gishath, Sun's Avatar or Atla Palani, Nest Tender. From Matterpillar's list I'd say this is worst than Etali, Primal Storm or Regal Behemoth, and about even with Burning Sun's Avatar and Trapjaw Tyrant.

As the "Tarmogoyf Test" thread indicates, this is a middle-tier include if the tribe doesn't matter to you. You can for sure do worse in a deck that is "powers matter" (like Selvala, Heart of the Wilds or Ghalta, Primal Hunger or newcomer Gwenna, Eyes of Gaea) or that might care about a big hexproof beefcake like Neyith of the Dire Hunt, but you can likely also do better and at $7 even post-rotation this isn't really a "budget card".

[3drinks]

Thursday, November 3rd, 2022; Lae'zel's Acrobatics

Huh. I must have missed this in spoiler season.

[void_nothing]

"Blink everything twice" is potentially pretty big even if you only hit it half the time.

[3drinks]

I don't think you ARE in agreement with 3drinks, though. I believe 3drinks considers CT to be an effective card within the format, not just a personal favorite for flavor reasons. Though I'll wait for him to respond before I put too many words in his mouth.

It's fine that you don't want to spend removal on my threat. That's fine. I'll still keep forcing it in your face until you have to answer it. Now it's been worth, what, 14? 28? damage for 4gg? You spending removal on it yet? Or am I just gonna knock you off the table with it? That's a pretty reasonable card slot for my 99 for sure. I really don't think it's neither fair nor ethically honest to evaluate a card based solely on if you would/wouldn't spend removal on it. Cards are gonna do what they're designed to do. In this case, that's lay an efficient, hard-to-interact-with, beatdown. I feel sorry for you that that you place zero value in the ability to attack and block, or ability to do combat math. These things are valuable traits until you get to the point where the only thing you build to is hermit druid-lab man or breach/X wins. Really doesn't seem like we're playing the same game at all, and that's quite okay!

Although maybe you're just kidding since you mentioned Soulshriek? I refuse to believe someone is seriously advocating for soulshriek.

I certainly wouldn't turn my nose up at getting gotcha'd by black berserk|2ed.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

The fact that it spares your tokens from vanishing into oblivion is a nice touch. This is probably the strongest mass-blink for creatures yet available.

[Hawk]

Among the mass blinks, this has two advantages:

- As an instant that flickers and doesn't blink, it can protect your board from wipes in a way that Sudden Disappearance can't.
- unlike Ghostway this can spare your tokens if you're just looking to blink for omega-value in a deck like Brago.

If you just care about the protection bit, I think the mana cost is too high even in a deck with a Sunforger pacakage and would likely look at staples like Flawless Maneuver, Rootborn Defenses, Your Temple Is Under Attack, Unbreakable Formation, and mega-staple Teferi's Protection for the job.

It's spicier if you care more about blinking for #value. This card is 1 more than it's toughest competition in Eerie Interlude and a 50-50 shot to be a double flicker; well worth the cost imo. I'd put this at roughly even with Interlude and better than Ghostway and Semester's End in such blink decks (assuming you aren't a blink deck full of 'walkers for Semester's End).