Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[duducrash]

Nobody is sleeping on anything, we are all in the trenches all amped up iwtg anfetamines and cant sleep as every other card is an auto include

[RxPhantom]

Pfft. I'm sleeping fine. Wake me when Bloomburrow previews start.

[DirkGently]

Just found out prerelease is going to be $120 NZD. Yikes.

Luckily there aren't THAT many cards I'm hyped for. There are a lot of strong cards, but cards that actually speak to me...eh.

Random thoughts, because the flare cycle IS something I'm interested in - I think the green one, Flare of Cultivation might actually be the worst one. It's fine, it's basically cultivate number 3 with a slightly worse mana cost, but the alt cost seems pretty meh. It sounds crazy to cast T1 on paper, but what 1-drop green creature are you playing? A mana dork? (I just checked - the top TWELVE most popular green 1-drops are mana dorks) Okay, so you replaced a creature-based 1 mana with a land-based 1 mana, and replaced the flare in your hand with a land. Big whoop? Unless there's some green 1-drop ETB critters that are commonly played, I think I'd rather just wait a turn and pay 3 for it, save myself the card.

The other ones I think are really solid since they let you keep up interaction without leaving up mana. When you need to counter a game-winning spell, whatever cost you're paying is worth it.

[materpillar]

In other news, Path of Annihilation seems bonkers in my Changeling deck. Not excited for how pushed this set is. Omo, Queen of Vesuva deck hasn't been previewed yet right? I'm going to get slammed with playables from that I assume.

[Toshi]

I mean, ditching Veteran Explorer for Flare of Cultivation would be quite hilarious...

[DirkGently]

I mean, ditching Veteran Explorer for Flare of Cultivation would be quite hilarious...

Something with a death trigger would be ideal, though veteran explorer kinda mitigates the mana advantage you're getting from flare. 2 mana when everyone else has 1 is a lot more exciting than 4 mana when everyone else has 3.

[Toshi]

I mean, ditching Veteran Explorer for Flare of Cultivation would be quite hilarious...

Something with a death trigger would be ideal, though veteran explorer kinda mitigates the mana advantage you're getting from flare. 2 mana when everyone else has 1 is a lot more exciting than 4 mana when everyone else has 3.

Sure, Arboreal Grazer is likely the better play, but a lot less fun.

[pokken]

Marionette Apprentice is gonna be trouble :D oh boy.

Hope y'all are ready for the eventual backlash against treasures/clues because I really, really am.

[TheGildedGoose]

Having a hard time imagining most black decks not running Fell the Profane in most scenarios. I can't be alone in thinking that these are completely insane, particularly in EDH. MDFCs shouldn't be a no-brainer over a basic land.

I am upset.

[yeti1069]

Having a hard time imagining most black decks not running Fell the Profane in most scenarios. I can't be alone in thinking that these are completely insane, particularly in EDH. MDFCs shouldn't be a no-brainer over a basic land.

I am upset.

Maybe WotC has decided that the best way to address mana flood and mana screw is by phasing out basic lands in favor of everything being an MDFC, the way a lot of other TCGs function (I really haven't played many others, but I know you can basically turn any card in your hand into a land in the Final Fantasy card game).

[yeti1069]

Flare of Cultivation is exactly what I want in Smeagol.

[folding_music]

fell the profane pushes my stupid Belzenlok's average cmc higher giggle
but mmm it's too good isn't it

[pokken]

Having a hard time imagining most black decks not running Fell the Profane in most scenarios. I can't be alone in thinking that these are completely insane, particularly in EDH. MDFCs shouldn't be a no-brainer over a basic land.

I am upset.

I think the percentage of the time you'd rather that was a basic swamp is high enough that it's not great tbh. Four mana is a lot for a kill spell these days and 3 life is not trivial.

I'm personally super high on basic swamp for cabal stronghold in most mono black builds. It's really nice when coffers and stronghold are good on their own without having to find urborg.

For multicolored decks I think it depends. Most people aren't running that many basics these days. Slots for lands that only make one color are at a premium and mfdcs need to consume a land slot to be helping mostly.

I think it's sweet spot is on 2c decks where black is the splash


--

Good lord the blue one and the white one slide by side are like a case study for why white is still crappy :D loool Jesus. It could exile target attacking or blocking creature and be worse.

[TheGildedGoose]

It's not Boseiju, Who Endures good, but I would play it over Agadeem, the Undercrypt, Cabal Pit, Ifnir Deadlands, Shizo, Death's Storehouse, Spymaster's Vault, Takenuma, Abandoned Mire, The Black Gate, Tomb of Urami, and Urborg in the majority of decks over a basic Swamp. The only trivially untapped land that taps for only black mana I would play over it is Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

If this was a channel land, people would be ruining their tunics.

[pokken]

It's not Boseiju, Who Endures good, but I would play it over Agadeem, the Undercrypt, Cabal Pit, Ifnir Deadlands, Shizo, Death's Storehouse, Spymaster's Vault, Takenuma, Abandoned Mire, The Black Gate, Tomb of Urami, and Urborg in the majority of decks over a basic Swamp. The only trivially untapped land that taps for only black mana I would play over it is Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

If this was a channel land, people would be ruining their tunics.

I think you're overrating it and people are overplaying those other lands. It's worse than takenuma, agadeem at least and those others are mostly garbage :D I guess the The Black Gate is alright. Tough to evaluate that one since it's so damn awkward

A four mana removal spell vs a game winning mass reanimation land or a loop able combo enabler that is often nearly free? And no life loss?

I think it's a lot worse than spymasters vault as well and probably worse than the eldraine one.

The going rate for removing a creature is 2 mana. Four is a lot more than 2. And most of the time I'd rather try to win than kill a dude.

[PrimevalCommander]

I'm not as high on Fell the Profane either. It is 2x the cost of typical creature removal these days, and while coming in untapped is a huge boon for play-ability, the 3 life is a cost that I don't lightly disregard in my midrangey meta. Hagra Mauling // Hagra Broodpit didn't become an auto-include black removal spell either, and this is somewhat better, at uncommon even, but not night and day different in use. I would certainly take Shizo, Death's Storehouse if my commander had any reasonable stats, or Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt as a late game bomb reanimation spell. Probably a snap include in mono-black or decks that don't have all the fixing needed in 3+ color decks. None of my 3 color decks have an abundance of basics to swap out and what are there are needed for other basic-searchers.

I've mentioned this in another thread, if I took out a basic for every land that was "better than a basic", I would be playing -10 basics in every deck Might have been this thread. Eventually those slots dry up, but newer players without a deep pool of utility lands can certainly be more flexible with some of these.

I'm a bit dissapointed in the dual-color MDFC's where Waterlogged Teachings seems to be the standout as a tutor + fixing. Not that they needed to be pushed, but their effects are much less powerfull than most of the mono MDFC's we have seen. The and are pretty cool for how cheap they are to cast.

Another note on Sowing Mycospawn is that the land enters Untapped, which has me looking harder at this card despite the cast trigger. Nabbing a Phyrexian Tower or other high-value land and getting immediate access is good and the creature sticks around to block and stuff.

[MAGUSZANIN]

Yeah, the four mana removal aspect really kills it for me. I would be okay playing this if I wasn't already playing like four other mono black or colorless utility lands in those slots.

Edit: For reference, I recently built newGitrog. In that Golgari deck with functionally no Green creature removal and a ravenous desire to play every single land I could get my hands on, I'm only playing six basics out of 37 lands, with a 2:1 regular/snow split to help turn on Field of the Dead. Hagra Mauling didn't make the cut, and that will often cost 3! Maybe this would have made the cut, but it's also behind a bunch of other great utility lands like the new Spymaster's Vault, Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers, Yavimaya Hollow, or one of several man lands.

[pokken]

Another note on Sowing Mycospawn is that the land enters Untapped, which has me looking harder at this card despite the cast trigger. Nabbing a Phyrexian Tower or other high-value land and getting immediate access is good and the creature sticks around to block and stuff.

I foresee myself getting a lot of uncounterable Gaea's Cradle with that card

I've mentioned this in another thread, if I took out a basic for every land that was "better than a basic", I would be playing -10 basics in every deck Might have been this thread. Eventually those slots dry up, but newer players without a deep pool of utility lands can certainly be more flexible with some of these.

I've been really just militantly controlling myself with utility lands. Sooner or later Ruination is gonna become socially acceptable again and there's gonna be a lot of tears :D

[PrimevalCommander]

If this was a channel land, people would be ruining their tunics.

You are not wrong here. There are definite benefits to being a channel land over an MDFC, even at the same mana cost. Mostly for green though. I suppose using a Mystical Tutor for an untapped land is relevant, but you just don't see that as being as useful as turning your less needed turn 7 land tutor into a relevant removal tutor. To be fair, bounce lands work with both, and will probably become semi-staples as MDFC's become ever more powerful and prominent.

[heridfel]

Am I weird for being disappointed in Shifting Woodland? The Delirium trigger requiring at least four card types in the graveyard seems to encourage a lot of multi type cards, and then requiring four mana (not including the land itself) to activate it makes it seem like it will help out some combo decks but otherwise be a marginal card.

Regarding Flare of Cultivation, my ideal sacrifice target would be a T2 Wood Elves off a mana dork/Sol Ring. I already got the value from the sacrificed creature and I am looking at five or six mana on turn 3.

[TheGildedGoose]

I think you're overrating it and people are overplaying those other lands. It's worse than takenuma, agadeem at least and those others are mostly garbage :D I guess the The Black Gate is alright. Tough to evaluate that one since it's so damn awkward

Almost all of them are bad, but them's the totality of trivially untapped black-producing nonbasics. Most of them are virtually unplayable, the ones that have raw power are niche (Takenuma, Agadeem, and now Vault), but Fell Mire's floor is sky high. There are many decks with black that I can see not playing the former three, but almost every deck with black is going to have need for removal, and this replaces a basic. Is it going to close as many games as Spymaster's Vault will? No, but it's going to be the slimy sinew that binds everything together and help sand down those minor inconsistencies.

The going rate for removing a creature is 2 mana. Four is a lot more than 2. And most of the time I'd rather try to win than kill a dude.

Otawara, Soaring City

I've mentioned this in another thread, if I took out a basic for every land that was "better than a basic", I would be playing -10 basics in every deck Might have been this thread. Eventually those slots dry up, but newer players without a deep pool of utility lands can certainly be more flexible with some of these.

"Better than a basic" is contextual. Tolaria is "better than a basic" in a vacuum but the overwhelming majority of the time it's just a nonbasic Island. Boseiju, Who Endures is "better than a basic" in virtually all contexts, and outside of budget it's difficult to justify not having. While Fell Mire won't be as ubiquitous as Boseiju, I do think it's a card you're going to have to think about most times you build a deck with anything more than a splash of black.

"Do I need basic typing, or a padded removal count?"

Another note on Sowing Mycospawn is that the land enters Untapped, which has me looking harder at this card despite the cast trigger. Nabbing a Phyrexian Tower or other high-value land and getting immediate access is good and the creature sticks around to block and stuff.

Any body with "enters the battlefield" and a loose definition of "find thing" is prone to abuse. Looping this to pull out every land in your deck is going to be interesting.

[pokken]

Otawara hits broad spectrum and has cost reduction and can be loamed. And no life loss. And blue. It's as close to infinity better than this thing as possible.

[DirkGently]

Otawara hits broad spectrum and has cost reduction and can be loamed. And no life loss. And blue. It's as close to infinity better than this thing as possible.

"Why do people play Infernal Grasp over Unsummon? Unsummon costs less mana and doesn't have any life loss! It's as close to infinity better as possible."

Fell the Profane looks pretty strong to me. Significant upgrade on Hagra Mauling // Hagra Broodpit. I don't think it's like, break the format good or anything, simply because the density of really good lands is already very high (idk how you people still find room for 25 basic lands). But yeah I'd probably put it into most black control decks that weren't doing a cabal thing.

[Ruiner]

I'm certainly looking forward to running Fell the Profane in my Killian, Ink Duelist deck, where it will cost two mana, or if played as a land the life loss will be trivial due to the lifgain he has.

[TheGildedGoose]

Otawara hits broad spectrum and has cost reduction and can be loamed. And no life loss. And blue. It's as close to infinity better than this thing as possible.

Your argument was that four mana was a lot for a removal spell stapled to a land. Otawara is a four mana removal spell stapled to a land and is a near staple. I 100% concede that Fell Mire isn't on the same level as Otawara, but if your only arguments boil down to "it isn't as good as other cards that are better," that doesn't say much about the quality of the card itself, only that it's not as good as others. Imperial Seal isn't as good as Vampiric Tutor, but you still play both.

It's not going to break the format wide open, no more so than Boseiju, Who Endures did, but I'm genuinely shocked as to how cold people are on these.

EDIT: I didn't even talk about the blue one, which is superior to Otawara, Soaring City in many respects. The extra U in the color requirements isn't great, but being able to Remand a problematic spell in a pinch in addition to being a Boomerang is incredible.

Disciple of Freyalise is easily the best of the bunch, though. As much as I like it, card draw shouldn't be attached to lands. The floor of "bad Forest" and ceiling of "draw more cards than you need to win the game" just seems so obviously poorly designed, I guess.

Poor white.