The Anti-Deck (commander currently undecided)

[DirkGently]

For those who somehow haven't heard my loud complaining yet, I'm currently struggling to lower the power level of my decks in order to match the hostage situation that is my current playgroup. I've tried a wide variety of strategies to accomplish this, most of which have failed. This is not a simple challenge, nor one for the faint of heart. In this meta, I've dominated with precons, 99 land decks, and draft chaff. To succeed, I must learn from each attempt, unlearning every deckbuilding lesson I've absorbed, to create an abomination known only as...

THE ANTI-DECK

I'm going to focus on each elements of my decks which I've noticed can provide me with frequent victories, and then pass judgment on how to amend these in creating the anti-deck. Let's start off with...

"Bursty" win conditions

I've long held (and I think most knowledgeable players would agree) that the most effective win conditions in commander are those that provide as little opportunity for opponents to react as possible. Winning in a 4p game is always an uphill battle because, as soon as you threaten to win the game, you're fighting interaction from 3 sides. The simplest way to achieve this is with a combo that wins the game from essentially no board state, but there are cards like Craterhoof Behemoth that allow you to win from a relatively innocuous board state, or Expropriate that gives you a sudden enormous boost of resources that can enable you to take over the game. I consider these win conditions to be "bursty" - that is, they provide a rapid burst of power rather than a slow grind.

Many of my wins come from a single card suddenly moving me from a relatively weak position, into one from which I can win. For example, last night playing 98 lands Wilson, Refined Grizzly + Shameless Charlatan, I had turned him into a Lair of the Hydra to protect him from answers. Fine and well - I had many lands in play and some commander damage marked on each opponent, however they both had blockers and tapping out for a big swing would probably leave me dead. Then, I topdecked Access Tunnel. Suddenly, I had a wincon. I used it to make my commander unblockable, killed the stronger player, then used Underdark Rift to remove the on-board removal just played for my commander before animating and killing the second player on my next turn.

Access Tunnel might not seem like a bursty wincon. It might not seem like a very good card at all. But jesus christ you never heard such complaining about how commander damage was a %$#%$#% unfair win as after that game.

The lesson is clear - burstiness must be avoided at all costs. Any threats cannot manifest an immediate impact. More details later - I think that's sufficient rumination on the broader topic.

Board complexity/"Hidden" effects

Another thing that I think frequently leads to victories is that the complexity of my board state makes it difficult for inexperienced players to notice the relevant cards on it. This is especially true for my 98-99 land builds, as utility lands are often nearly impossible to make properly visible once they get to critical mass. Winning a game off a Creeping Tar Pit that had sat doing nothing except fixing mana for the past ten turns felt dirty because it was a bit of a sucker punch, but among the dozen or more utility lands it hadn't been important until just then. I never would have thought to make a big deal about it the turn I played it, and hadn't thought about it until the turn I activated it.

Similarly, I got a win by using a Rise of the Dread Marn off Evelyn, the Covetous after a Cataclysmic Gearhulk. The card was face up on the table for anyone to see, but it was among many other stolen cards, plus all my on-board creatures, many of which also had potentially-relevant abilities. Nobody else noticed it, gearhulk got cast, I made a ton of zombies and won.

Another game I won playing the grixis SNC precon and using Double Vision with Twinning Staff to create 39 zombies off Army of the Damned. Now, I told them after I had down DV and TS that I was absolutely a huge threat and needed to be dealt with - and given that they still failed, I don't think it mattered what they did - but if I hadn't explicitly told them they wouldn't had paid much mind to my enchantments that weren't currently "doing" anything.

The lesson is clear - to ensure our opponents have ample opportunity to see our threats coming, we must pare them down to as few as possible, or as simple and straightforward as possible. Having threats amongst lands is likely to go unnoticed, as will anything that goes unused until it's played for victory once the board state becomes sufficiently complex. Simple threats are good, as are threats that are used frequently and repeatedly so as to remind everyone of their presence. I'm not a big "simple threats" kind of guy, so I think the latter is preferrable. For example, my so-far-winless Kamahl, Pit Fighter deck primarily uses kamahl as its wincon. He pings something or someone every turn, so nobody forgets he's around, and I was killed off specifically because the other player knew I'd be able to lethally ping him to death on the next turn. Success!

On Answers

Not playing answers is not the correct way forward, in my opinion. Answers are the best way to stabilize the table and prevent another player from running away with the the game, which I think overall creates the most interesting experiences. However, answers in sufficient quantity and strength become a bursty wincon in their own right. In Phelddagrif, the deck intentionally lacks any fast way to win, however that's really an obfuscation - casting Hour of Devastation with a hand of 4 counterspells is itself a bursty win condition, except that instead of boosting your own power quickly, you're immediately setting your opponent's power to zero so you can beat them to death with His Royal Majesty.

So I think the lesson here is - answers are fine, however they must fit the following criteria:
-Don't use too many (probably <=10 in the deck)
-Very few board wipes, if any - primarily 1:1 trades
-Any board wipes that are used must also set you back substantially enough to make a rapid overtaking nearly impossible.

Okay, that's enough thoughts for now. right now I'd say our deck construction is going to look something like:

Commander with frequently-used utility
10 answers (no more than 2 board wipes)
?? a bunch of threats that don't do anything right away
10 ramp (smallish, +1-2 mana)
10 draw (smallish, +1-3 cards)
40 lands (no utility lands, mana production and fetching only)

So I'm in the market for a commander. It's gotta be something I actually like. It doesn't have to be terrible, but it can't do anything bursty that enables surprising wins.

[TheGildedGoose]

They're going to prevent you from going to that middle school gaming club if this trend continues.

Anyway, how about Mangara, the Diplomat Parfait? You know, mono-white enchantment control. The yang to my Erebos's yin. It's a deck I've been meaning to brew for a while, but since I'll never own a Serra's Sanctum it's kind of a moot point.

Throw in a bunch of Oblivion Rings, utility enchantments, soft answers like literal Icy Manipulator, and all those neat catch up cards white has been getting lately.

No stax!

Your win conditions? Little lentils. You're gonna beat down with Archivist of Oghma and Deep Gnome Terramancer and Alms Collector.

I mean, it's mono-white. How bad could it get? Are enchantments too difficult of a permanent type for them to understand?

I woke up and had to pee so I'm sorry if I didn't understand the assignment.

[folding_music]

Kianne, Dean of Substance // Imbraham, Dean of Theory gives you lots of options, all gradually expanding and telegraphed from a mile away, very hard to get a surprise win with as far as I can tell... that's if you consider digging and token creation to be your kind of utility. and your board wipes would have to be board bounces for less? salt??

[Ruiner]

Maybe you need to just play a group hug deck that can defend itself (but not too well) without having real offensive threats? I generally don't like group hug as it usually goes into a kingmaker situation but I think in this particular group you'd be avoiding that, with no one mighty enough to rule as king 😀. Gluntch, the Bestower could be a low power commander for this maybe?

[Magiqmaster]

I will reiterate my suggestion for The Prismatic Piper... and nothing but basic lands. That might work...

Really, after all the suggestions that were made on this subject, I just don't see anything. Your group seems kinda hopeless...

[yeti1069]

A Queen Marchesa Aikido deck might do it. It doesn't have many (any) of its own wincons, but dissuades players from attacking you/incentivizes (forces?) them to attack each other, and uses their own resources against them. Swing at me with a giant creature? Deflecting Palm Attacking with big power more than your life total but less than mine? Arcbond!

Pillowfort up a lit behind Ghostly Prison. Play out Breena, the Demagogue to make attacking elsewhere valuable to them. I like goad if the group isn't cooperative with the politics, but it isn't necessary.

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

May I suggest Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist (with or without another partner)?

Alternatively, Mairsil, the Pretender Wizard-tribal creatures (no Inalla or Kess).

[materpillar]

There's my germ "tribal" deck? I built it specifically to play against really really bad players. It'd need a little tweaking but is ballpark where I expect you need to be. Probably need to axe Mirrorweave for burst reasons even though it is hilarious. Yorion, Sky Nomad actually is a strong engine so it probably needs to go too.
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I had a Lovisa Coldeyes deck that I enjoyed a lot. It's only removal was various Act of Treason cards and Fling effects. I had a blast playing it. That might scale down well enough for you. Your group might consider it bursty though because haste? I assume they wouldn't find Act of Treason + Fling bursty if literally every sorcery in the deck is an Act of Treason variant? If they can't figure that out then they really need to work on their deck analysis.
Pros - a deck filled with Canyon Minotaur. Cons - you hate tribal.


Mayael the Anima seems decent? Just dump obvious fatties into play?

Actually my vote is for Jalira, Master Polymorphist or Braids, Conjurer Adept. Flip out random large sphinxes, leviathans or sea monsters. Also, no counterspells.

[edit]: Braids, Conjurer Adept group hug wall tribal might be hilarious. Get people to dump their hand and kill each other while you sit behind Fog Bank / Wall of Frost. Not sure how you'd win? Prosperity + Platinum Angel is the best I can think of.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

This is pointless. You haven't made The Deck, so how can we build the Anti-deck? I feel some reverse engineering is in order if this to truly be achieved.

Anyway, I gotta say I think this apporach is wrong. You're an MLB player fielding against a Little League team. You fundamentally cannot be on their level, neither through self-sabotage nor regression. You have to make them better if this problem is ever to resolve in satisfying way.

How do you teach these apparent invertebrates? No clue. But kicking their ass with memes isn't going to teach them how to play against real threats in the future, that much is certain imho.

[Legend]

I will reiterate my suggestion for The Prismatic Piper... and nothing but basic lands.

I was thinking a colorless, relatively innocuous commander with nothing but utility lands and maybe some Wastes.

[materpillar]

Anyway, I gotta say I think this apporach is wrong. You're an MLB player fielding against a Little League team. You fundamentally cannot be on their level, neither through self-sabotage nor regression. You have to make them better if this problem is ever to resolve in satisfying way.

How do you teach these apparent invertebrates? No clue. But kicking their ass with memes isn't going to teach them how to play against real threats in the future, that much is certain imho.

I don't agree. I think Dirk is getting closer to figuring out a deck that doesn't ruin them. He finally figured out that he shouldn't play utility lands. He's almost realized he functionally can't play removal. I give him another two sessions of pubstomping with strong of a removal suite before he throws that out the window too. Then, he'll have to figure out he can't play commanders that actively do anything. I estimate three more iterations if making his decks worse and he'll just about be at the right powerlevel. Maybe four, if he can't curb his desire to make his decks have some semblance of synergy.

[Magiqmaster]

Anyway, I gotta say I think this apporach is wrong. You're an MLB player fielding against a Little League team. You fundamentally cannot be on their level, neither through self-sabotage nor regression. You have to make them better if this problem is ever to resolve in satisfying way.

How do you teach these apparent invertebrates? No clue. But kicking their ass with memes isn't going to teach them how to play against real threats in the future, that much is certain imho.

I don't agree. I think Dirk is getting closer to figuring out a deck that doesn't ruin them. He finally figured out that he shouldn't play utility lands. He's almost realized he functionally can't play removal. I give him another two sessions of pubstomping with strong of a removal suite before he throws that out the window too. Then, he'll have to figure out he can't play commanders that actively do anything. I estimate three more iterations if making his decks worse and he'll just about be at the right powerlevel. Maybe four, if he can't curb his desire to make his decks have some semblance of synergy.

This...

I also suggest playing blindfolded, with both hands tied in the back. That should help some more.

I have to say, Dirk, your motivation is astounding! I would have given up a long time ago...

[yeti1069]

Anyway, I gotta say I think this apporach is wrong. You're an MLB player fielding against a Little League team. You fundamentally cannot be on their level, neither through self-sabotage nor regression. You have to make them better if this problem is ever to resolve in satisfying way.

How do you teach these apparent invertebrates? No clue. But kicking their ass with memes isn't going to teach them how to play against real threats in the future, that much is certain imho.

I don't agree. I think Dirk is getting closer to figuring out a deck that doesn't ruin them. He finally figured out that he shouldn't play utility lands. He's almost realized he functionally can't play removal. I give him another two sessions of pubstomping with strong of a removal suite before he throws that out the window too. Then, he'll have to figure out he can't play commanders that actively do anything. I estimate three more iterations if making his decks worse and he'll just about be at the right powerlevel. Maybe four, if he can't curb his desire to make his decks have some semblance of synergy.

I dunno...at the level where they're outraged over an unblockable 3/1 land...there's not a lot lower you can go, or should necessarily.

I agree that helping them improve is a better strategy, but they sound too resistant to that to change. It's why I suggested an Aikido build: you play a bunch of cards that are dependent upon the power level of your opponents' decks/cards. If they play weaker stuff, your cards are generally weaker. It also has few/no ways to close out the game quickly.

I played with someone recently who said he doesn't like to eat his vegetables and views ensuring he has enough removal, ramp, card draw, and recursion as basically the 'vegetables' of building an EDH deck. This was in response to my wondering aloud how someone can power DOWN a precon: people take out the cards they view as boring and slot in the ones they think are fun, which almost universally means removing the 'vegetables' that actually help the deck function and compete, while almost certainly raising the average CMC considerably.

[TheGildedGoose]

I played with someone recently who said he doesn't like to eat his vegetables and views ensuring he has enough removal, ramp, card draw, and recursion as basically the 'vegetables' of building an EDH deck. This was in response to my wondering aloud how someone can power DOWN a precon: people take out the cards they view as boring and slot in the ones they think are fun, which almost universally means removing the 'vegetables' that actually help the deck function and compete, while almost certainly raising the average CMC considerably.

I guess I'm a vegan, then.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Anyway, I gotta say I think this apporach is wrong. You're an MLB player fielding against a Little League team. You fundamentally cannot be on their level, neither through self-sabotage nor regression. You have to make them better if this problem is ever to resolve in satisfying way.

How do you teach these apparent invertebrates? No clue. But kicking their ass with memes isn't going to teach them how to play against real threats in the future, that much is certain imho.

I don't agree. I think Dirk is getting closer to figuring out a deck that doesn't ruin them. He finally figured out that he shouldn't play utility lands. He's almost realized he functionally can't play removal. I give him another two sessions of pubstomping with strong of a removal suite before he throws that out the window too. Then, he'll have to figure out he can't play commanders that actively do anything. I estimate three more iterations if making his decks worse and he'll just about be at the right powerlevel. Maybe four, if he can't curb his desire to make his decks have some semblance of synergy.

But when you subtract all of that, what is left? We're existentially whittling Dirk's options into oblivion! What point is there in playing 99 Basics Piper? Why engage in this exercise at all if the end goal we're seeking is essentially to lose at poker against a shovel, a brick, and a sea monkey? The game is then a facade, a Herculean feat of futility in Magic branding. And if these people never improve, we end up in eternal stasis, a zone of unending folly that can only be escaped if Dirk moves.

This is sheer utter undiminished undisguised madness. How %$#% deep is this hole?

[DirkGently]

I've been going through the full list of legends and picking out suitable candidates.

They're going to prevent you from going to that middle school gaming club if this trend continues.

lmao busted.

I am a little curious how *light* staxy elements would go down. I think light stax can be more self-harm than help in a lot of cases since it pulls attention onto me, making me the obvious villain who must be overcome in this little morality play. But it's risky, ofc. Easy for that to become oppressive if overdone.

Mangara is on the list. I do like commanders that have a "you did this to yourself" dealio. But I think maybe drawing cards is too nebulous of a connection - sometimes it might directly cause their loss, sometimes it might not matter at all or even benefit them if I use removal on someone else's stuff. Something like Kambal, Consul of Allocation is a bit more concrete.

@folding_music Kianne is on the list. I do like that I have a lot of options while none of them are too strong probably. I do worry that putting a lot of cards face-up on the table could be information overload, though. Easy to miss an important spell, at least while Imbraham is up and I could potentially put it into my hand.

@Ruiner Gluntch is somewhat interesting (not currently on the list since decked app hasn't added CLB yet, but it will be). I don't consider that truly group hug, though, since you have control over who gets hugged and how much. At the very least, it's a smarter version of hugging than Kami of the Crescent Moon for example.

@Magiqmaster Well onslaught/odyssey block only Kamahl, Pit Fighter lost 3 games pretty hard. Granted he's running ~80 basic land. But that gives some idea of where we're at.

John actually had a much improved deck this week around Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm. It actually had a bunch of dragons instead of trying to do 6 different badly-supported synergies! Now we just need to work on his propensity for forgetting to attack. And whining.

@yeti1069 Pretty sure I'll be able to blow them out of the water with a deck like that. It's fun, but tempering the power level would be quite difficult, and certainly wouldn't dodge the impression that I always have unlimited tricks up my sleeve or that I'm a puppet master.

@Sporegorger_Dragon Ludevic is on the list. Not sure what I'd pair him with yet.

Mairsil seems like an awful idea. Way too much complexity, largely in one big pile of caged permanents. It's the utility land problem but worse.

@materpillar I'm generally wary of equipment as it can have a fast impact and contribute to commander damage kills. It is a cute deck, though.

I think Lovisa Coldeyes hits badly between the haste and tribal. It's not ideal for the circumstance and it's not really my thing.

Mayael the Anima has the right idea but the wrong execution. Dumping a bit fatty into play eot is functionally giving it haste.

Jalira and Braids both seem prone to power spikes. I guess with garbage creatures they aren't necessarily, but then it seems like a waste of time to build them. Plus cheating out fatties, not really my thing.

Hilarious is good, but I'd like it to be something that makes a bit more sense than putting walls into play with Braids.

@TheAmericanSpirit I think we're making progress. It's all a learning experience.

And they are getting better, albeit slowly. As mentioned, John's new Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm deck was mostly dragons! Granted, he kept talking about how he had a bunch of +1/+1 counter synergy and bemoaning that he didn't draw it (I'm guessing it was, like, 5 cards) but still, progress!

@Legend Tragically, utility lands are out this season.

@materpillar (again) I do think there are probably some subset of utility lands that would be okay, but for testing purposes at least I'm going to eschew them at least in the short term. I do think a lot of their strength comes from being "hidden", which isn't ideal.

I dunno why you say my commander "can't do anything" when you wanted me to play Tatyova, Benthic Druid. She's pretty strong? How is that not "doing something"?

I'm cutting removal down to pretty low numbers. I think it'll be fine. Scoff if you must.

[materpillar]

@materpillar I'm generally wary of equipment as it can have a fast impact and contribute to commander damage kills. It is a cute deck, though.

I can assure you from personal experience that that deck's equipment does not have fast impact or anything approaching reasonable commander damage kills. Maybe Bonehoard could? You're trying to blink the equipment a bunch anyway, not actually equip it. You're more likely to kill your opponent by cloning their commander and then cloning it with Sakashima of a Thousand Faces than with anything the deck is actually trying to do.

Mayael the Anima has the right idea but the wrong execution. Dumping a bit fatty into play eot is functionally giving it haste.

I disagree. Effectively killing people out of no where is the issue. That's easily mitigated by playing garbage creatures that can't effectively kill people out of nowhere even with haste. So just fill the deck with creatures that aren't particularly threatening even with haste.

Jalira and Braids both seem prone to power spikes. I guess with garbage creatures they aren't necessarily, but then it seems like a waste of time to build them. Plus cheating out fatties, not really my thing.

Hilarious is good, but I'd like it to be something that makes a bit more sense than putting walls into play with Braids.

I don't follow your logic at all. Braids and Jalira are super duper easy to build without power spiking? Besides, how're you expecting to win in an easily interactive and predictive matter that isn't big dumb fatties? Your opponents are going to struggle to threat assess anything that isn't a creature from my understanding. So you should be trying to beat people to death with Sphinx Ambassador and friends...

Why're you trying to put better things into play than Fog Bank with Braids, Conjurer Adept? You shouldn't be playing her to put good things into play, you should play her because she's group huggy and fun for your opponents. You should be playing her to put the meme-ist cards into play and somehow still kill your opponents even though they're generating significantly more value out of her. Hence, my wall idea. You accelerate the game state, and profit off the accelerated gamestate by making yourself more annoying to kill so they all murder each other and you can clean up the 1v1. It's like how Phelddagrif wins except you don't have a stack of removal to hide behind and you have no solid way to win the 1v1 because even typing that I have a decent prediction that you'll find a way to win the 1v1 in a wall based group hug deck.

You shouldn't be playing Jalira, Master Polymorphist to polymorph into actual good cards. You should be putting only legendaries and krakens not named Hullbreaker Horror into the deck so instead of saying "I activate Jalira" you say "RELEASE THE KRAKEN!!!" Actually... I should really build this deck.

I dunno why you say my commander "can't do anything" when you wanted me to play Tatyova, Benthic Druid. She's pretty strong? How is that not "doing something"?

I recommended Tatyova, Benthic Druid with no support. Hence, she'd be Phyrexian Arena which is not that strong. I recommended her so you'd have a card advantage outlet and thus could cut all your other card advantage outlets out of the deck. Since you'd have a way to draw cards you wouldn't be tempted to play synergistic card advantage engines your opponents don't know how to threat assess at all and in their place you'd run Craw Wurms.

I say that you should have a commander that "can't do anything" because you consistently kill these guys with commanders that do something and 99 lands. So you should probably be playing significantly worse commanders which I assume are commanders that you would classify as "can't do anything". Also, whenever you have a commander that is a reasonable build around, you build around it a ton and out synergy these poor fellows. I'm looking at you Garth One-Eye + Riptide Laboratory + Haste outlet and unblockable + unkillable + Grizzly Bears.

I'm cutting removal down to pretty low numbers. I think it'll be fine. Scoff if you must.

I have stated my opinion. You have stated yours. I suppose one of us will get to quote this in a couple of weeks and tell the other person "I told you so".

[pokken]

Commander with frequently-used utility
10 answers (no more than 2 board wipes)
?? a bunch of threats that don't do anything right away
10 ramp (smallish, +1-2 mana)
10 draw (smallish, +1-3 cards)
40 lands (no utility lands, mana production and fetching only)

So I'm in the market for a commander. It's gotta be something I actually like. It doesn't have to be terrible, but it can't do anything bursty that enables surprising wins.

I think your template is likely to end up a little too streamlined.

I'd suggest working with a theme like…

Efficient control and midrange creatures that were popular in standard and modern. Hypnotic specter ernham djinn frenetic efreet aetherling dream trawler type garbage. Siege rhino!

Maybe not that exactly but you get the idea.

[TheGildedGoose]

.
lmao busted.

You're only dunking on them because they can't even touch the rim.

Mangara is on the list. I do like commanders that have a "you did this to yourself" dealio. But I think maybe drawing cards is too nebulous of a connection - sometimes it might directly cause their loss, sometimes it might not matter at all or even benefit them if I use removal on someone else's stuff. Something like Kambal, Consul of Allocation is a bit more concrete.

Well, you're going to have to teach them how to play against the deck. Like a diplomat. Mangara has a sort of "come at me, bro" passive-aggressiveness to him that I really like that you can make shine when you play with the deck. Build the deck to teach them how to actually play Magic by showing them how and why things are good by being rewarded for them.

[DirkGently]

I probably should mention: while I'm dunking pretty hard winrate-wise here, I don't think it's a terribly unusual situation. The basic reason it's an issue where it hasn't been in the past is:

1) Their decks are worse than decks at an LGS
2) I play the same people over and over instead of a rotating cast

1 isn't exactly a problem on its own - if I play a precon, we're on equal footing in terms of raw deck power. The high winrate is a factor of my playing proficiency/experience/whatever non-braggy way there is to say I'm a stronger player than them. HOWEVER, that's generally been true at LGSs as well, where I also have very high winrates, albeit playing 75% decks vs 75% decks (or thereabouts). But at an LGS, it's not that big of a problem since I'll be playing different people next week, so having a 75% winrate doesn't seem that oppressive to anyone in particular. Plus if I do want to lose I can just play a precon and be at enough of a disadvantage that it mostly cancels out of the skill advantage, whereas in a meta where we're already playing precon-level decks I have to find creative new ways to tunnel into the floor.

So yeah. Are they bad players? Yes. Are they worse than average LGS players? A bit, but not by that much tbh. Commander players are mostly bad.

@materpillar Actually looking at the decklist, my clones decklist kinda obliterated them. And I think a lot of the theft is likely to screw them over pretty hard.

And regardless of what the deck is "meant" to do, if putting bonehoard onto my commander and beating them in the face is the best way to win, that's what I'm gonna do.

Cute idea, but I think it's going to be too strong for my purposes.

Of course Mayael could work if I filled it with Fire Elementals but that doesn't sound terribly interesting to me. Mayael's not a commander I vibe with on a good day, let alone when I have to build a terrible version of her. Any commander can work if the deck is built badly enough, that's not really the question.

All that applies to Braids and Jalira as well. (symmetrical, involuntary) Group hug isn't my thing, nor are fatties with no interesting abilities. And not just because I want to play with good cards. I'll happily play with bad cards, I just want to play with bad cards that I actually find interesting. I'd rather try to win with an army of Forcemage Advocates than an army of Inkwell Leviathans. And it has gotten a little frustrating that you seem to keep telling me I'm wrong for rejecting ideas because they don't appeal to me. My enjoyment matters too.

"Can't do anything" is your phrase, I wouldn't apply it to hardly any commanders, certainly not Tatyova, well-supported or not. Maybe Jedit Ojanen or Tobias Andrion? If anything, I think the command zone is the place it's best to put an impactful card, because it's going to have a constant presence that they'll be forced to acknowledge. Kamahl, Pit Fighter in the command zone? They see me pinging every turn, they start to play around it. Kamahl in the 99? Now it's a "cheap, out of nowhere" kill. Sure, putting nothing but vanilla creatures in the CZ and the 99 would be the safest possible choice, but it wouldn't be one that interests me.

EDIT: to clarify a little bit on what sorts of things interest me: I like having choices. Tatyova with no support isn't much of a choice, I just draw an extra card assuming I can play my land drop. Kamahl, Pit Fighter is way more fun because he provides a choice ever turn, with quite a few different options in terms of targets, timing, and potentially politics. But for all that I think he's overall much weaker than Tatyova.

@pokken That's more of a limitation than a design. Maybe those creatures end up being crappy, maybe they end up being strong, hard to say until we line them up and decide what qualifies. That's kinda what I've been doing already - the idea this time is to build the deck with being terrible as a primary design goal, not a likely product of a limitation.

However, I do think in order for the deck to be reasonably fun to pilot, it should probably keep doing SOMETHING, even if it's not very effective. Playing a land and passing every turn isn't the most exciting when you're supposedly playing a proactive deck. So some draw and ramp is probably necessary, even if we're not building up to anything very good. It's an iterative process, we'll see how it goes.

@TheGildedGoose In case anyone thought I was being at all serious, John is in his 40s I'm pretty sure, and everyone else is in their 30s.

Not sure I understand what you mean about Mangara. He generally punishes them, rather than rewarding them, for doing good things (multi-spelling and attacking me) by letting me draw cards? He seems more like a passive disincentive for making good plays, tbh.

[Sefir]

I suggest commanders that make them think and the result can be unpredictable. Breena, the Demagogue is already mentioned.
My proposal is one of my favorite commanders for lower powered tables Mathas, Fiend Seeker. Not a group hug, with a lot of effects like Council's Judgment, Orzhov Advokist, Queen Marchesa, Agitator Ant, Combat Calligrapher, etc. I run a list like that for some months now with success (success=fun. Not necessarily win rate).

Making people be responsible for their own decisions while you get a small profit usually works.

[DirkGently]

I do like that dynamic, and Mathas and Marchesa are both on the list. I just finished going through them all, so I'll go ahead and lay out my favorite options.

Kytheon, Hero of Akros // Gideon, Battle-Forged - having played him before, he's pretty awful. But he does provide a lot of options which is cool.

Dina, Soul Steeper - my concept for this would be to try to use almost exclusively things under opponent control to gain life, such as Polluted Bonds. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of the trashy Kraken's Eye-type trash that would be hilarious here.

Kambal, Consul of Allocation - a simpler version of "you did this to yourself". No clue what the rest of the deck would be though.

Kianne, Dean of Substance // Imbraham, Dean of Theory - as mentioned, a nicely complex but predictable and slow commander.

Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero - If she was any other creature type she'd be busted. But rebels are so terrible.

Maralen of the Mornsong - nice that, if I manage to win after tutoring 5 times or whatever, it's easy to point out that they could have tutored an answer at any time. Learning moment.

Mathas, Fiend Seeker - I like the subtlety of directing hate towards priority targets while giving resources to those who are behind.

Nadaar, Selfless Paladin - terrible but gives some nice choices and is always "doing stuff". Have to go anti-voltron - stuff to protect him, but avoiding boosting his power or granting evasion.

Starke of Rath - I'm not sure what the plan would be, but I think he'd be pretty hilarious and force some interaction while giving it to my opponents too.

Same for Diaochan, Artful Beauty.

Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - I like how she's sooorta group hug but we still dunk on whoever is in the lead, and everyone always has stuff to do.

Jeska, Warrior Adept - She's terrible but she looks so %$#%$#% cool.

Mogis, God of Slaughter - I like environmental kills. Mogis provides a lot of options before he's really a problem, but still feels like a constant threat.

Queen Marchesa - Another fun "let's make this game interesting" option that isn't overly powerful.

Triad of Fates - I really like that I get removal on tap, but it takes multiple turns to set up AND it has a significant drawback. Plus lots of options = fun.

Yurlok of Scorch Thrash - he seems super bad, but also seems like a fun joust of me trying to guess when they'll be unable to use the mana, and them trying to find ways to use the mana.

Vazi, Keen Negotiator - Annoying to build, but it's fun to have my opponents gating my value.

Kamahl, Pit Fighter - I think the ODY/ONS build is too crappy to be properly fun (80 mountains...) but I do think he's a fun, cool, interesting, bad commander.

Thantis, the Warweaver - Forcing attacks to speed up the game seems like fun. Also kinda environmental-ish. Not sure what the rest of the deck is, though.

Tivit, Seller of Secrets - I don't actually like him that much but I do think voting is fun.

Alaundo the Seer - I like the idea of everything being delayed, so they're rewarded for planning ahead.

Gluntch, the Bestower - As mentioned, I like the asymmetrical hugging situation. I have to give benefits to my opponents, but I get to be clever about who gets what when. Lots of decisions while being difficult to actually win with.

[Sefir]

If you want to use Starke of Rath as well as Humble Defector (And you should. I run both of them and they are very fun), you should also use Homeward Path. It is a nice little niche trick.

[materpillar]

.
And not just because I want to play with good cards. I'll happily play with bad cards, I just want to play with bad cards that I actually find interesting. I'd rather try to win with an army of Forcemage Advocates than an army of Inkwell Leviathans. And it has gotten a little frustrating that you seem to keep telling me I'm wrong for rejecting ideas because they don't appeal to me. My enjoyment matters too.

…

EDIT: to clarify a little bit on what sorts of things interest me: I like having choices. Tatyova with no support isn't much of a choice, I just draw an extra card assuming I can play my land drop. Kamahl, Pit Fighter is way more fun because he provides a choice ever turn, with quite a few different options in terms of targets, timing, and potentially politics. But for all that I think he's overall much weaker than Tatyova.

You like things that give you choices and agency over the game. The issue is you consistently make drastically better choices than your opponents. Thus the more cards you play that give you agency and choice over the game the more options you have to outplay your opponents. As has been established you will outplay your opponents to a drastic degree. If you want to build a deck that loses constantly you need to build a deck that doesn't have a particularly large amount of agency. Any deck that loses to these guys is going to bore you because it's either going to be a deck with minimal synergy/choices ieCraw Wurm deck or basically not a functional deck (hello 80 mountain Kamahl, Pit Fighter).

The things that you find incredibly enjoyable are functionally incompatible with their current player skill if you want to lose consistently.

Speaking from personal experience I hit a similar issue that you have here in college. It was 60 card decks instead though. I built mono-vanilla creatures like Rumbling Baloth with only Plummet variants for removal. Angelic Gift was the decks lynchpin of wincon and removal enabler. That deck was pretty on point powerlevel wise.

Maybe Jedit Ojanen or Tobias Andrion? If anything, I think the command zone is the place it's best to put an impactful card, because it's going to have a constant presence that they'll be forced to acknowledge. Kamahl, Pit Fighter in the command zone? They see me pinging every turn, they start to play around it. Kamahl in the 99? Now it's a "cheap, out of nowhere" kill. Sure, putting nothing but vanilla creatures in the CZ and the 99 would be the safest possible choice, but it wouldn't be one that interests me.

The command zone is the best place to put impactful cards but you're trying to lose not win. That means you shouldn't be playing something impactful in the command zone. You want less access to impactful cards not more. If you want to lose you shouldn't be playing cards that they'll be forced to acknowledge anywhere in your deck.

I exaggerate mildly. I'm making assumptions about your definition of impactful so I'm over exaggerating my argument. I don't necessarily think you need a literal vanilla creature in the command zone. But I do think it should probably be an extremely low impact creature (ala unsupported Braids, Conjurer Adept or Tatyova, Benthic Druid).

[Vertierer]

Judging from your point on my boi Faldorn I assume that you really like planning ahead and making good decisions based on that. So in order to take your greater skill in comparison to your opponents out of the picture you could try to embrace chaos and randomness - in conjunction with %$#% cards :D - and leave your comfort zone that way. No topdeck manipulation, just some ramp, overcosted dudes and randomness sprinkled on top. You could also try to incorporate some tech-y synergies like "John" does and add 2-4 sets of 5 cards that work with each other (not in a way to be considered "good") but don't contribute to the deck itself.