Krosan Grip in 2023

[RxPhantom]

So...

This card used to be considered the best in its class. Uncounterable, un-mess-with-able. But how do we feel about it these days? As many of us travel inexorably down the path of optimization, does Krosan Grip still make the cut? Do we want to pay less, destroy multiple targets, or get the effect on a creature? Maybe we want other colors to do the heavy lifting here and want some additional flexibility.

So what say you, Nexus? How are you feeling about Krosan Grip in the year of our Lord 2023? Is it still the GOAT? Is it a yet another cardboard rectangle to fall victim to power creep? Do you even care about opponents' artifacts or enchantments? Do you enjoy strings of rhetorical questions from someone who's not as clever as he thinks he is? Let's hear it.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I think anything with Split Second is still pretty good for making %$#% happen, but K Grip is still king of those cards. 3 mana is steep, but you pay the premium to get the results imo.

[Mookie]

I've never really been a fan of Krosan Grip, and I think the alternatives have only gotten stronger over time. Tear Asunder, Beast Within, Reclamation Sage, Haywire Mite, Force of Vigor... there are lots of options, many of which are more flexible, more efficient, or can feed into more synergies than Krosan Grip.

I could see a few meta-dependent use cases for Krosan Grip being worth consideration - split second is a powerful ability, even if it is a bit narrow. The obvious use case is against opposing countermagic, although I'll note that Boseiju, Who Endures also dodges most counter magic. That said, Krosan Grip also beats stuff like Teferi's Protection and Heroic Intervention, which may be relevant in some metas. The other use case for Krosan Grip is against instant-speed activations like Pernicious Deed and Goblin Bombardment... although I would argue most of its advantages against those cards come from its surprise factor, and it loses value against them if your opponents activate them proactively.

[DirkGently]

If you're proactive and mana-hungry, probably not worth it. For a draw-go control deck, it's still pretty decent.

If you can tolerate leaving 3 up (which many can't tbf) I'd much rather have reliability than some random extra value.

[Maluko]

Agree with the general sentiment. Krosan Grip has been outclassed by power creep, but can be an optimal choice in certain decks against certain metagames, for example those rich in blue decks and counterspells. Thinking back, Krosan Grip might actually be at its peak right now since the previous sets have focused on artifacts and enchantments. There is no better tool available against those annoying opponents that like to sacrifice permanents for value

[Sinis]

This card is more important than ever before, IMO. When someone drops an Omniscience, Greater Good, Grave Pact, etc. this is the card that's going to deal with it.

I actually had a conversation with a friend of mine recently about how our group responds to certain things and my answer was "You could just sleeve up Krosan Grip". It's also been thankfully reprinted a bazillion times now, and dirt cheap (at one point, it was a couple of bucks).

[Dunadain]

It's pretty decent, honestly, the biggest problem is the effect: artifact/enchantments removal rarely needs split second. It's usually just "this spell can't be countered". Obviously, it's much better than just being uncounterable, but how often does it actually come up? In my experience, not too often

Now if you want to put split second on a creature exile spell, or, even better, a board wipe? NOW you have my attention.

[PrimevalCommander]

I only play Grip in mono green right now, but every time I want to remove it for a more synergistic removal or just something more fun, I just can't do it. I am with @Sinis on this one, where I think Korsan Grip has more value than it did 5-10 years ago with all of these powerful activated abilities. Even when not playing blue, having permanents with powerful activations can help me manipulate the stack and protect pieces of my board. Sacrifice outlets being the most common.

How great would it feel to dunk on a Aetherflux Reservoir when they cast a little spell to gain some life, or end their turn thinking they can deathstar anyone who targets it. Grave Pact is also a good callout sine it just got reprinted and is more available. Had a blue player with Isochron Scepter on Mission Briefing with a GY full of permission. EOT Krosan Grip = sad control player

Force of Vigor is better, because 2 for 2 at is just stupid, but barring that, Krosan Grip may be getting MORE powerful as power creep allows artifacts and enchantments to do more and more things and Heroic Intervention and friends just get more options and more accessible. Adding more colors typically leads me to more flexible removal, but I would nod in respect to any player still rocking Krosan Grip.

[Sinis]

How great would it feel to dunk on a Aetherflux Reservoir when they cast a little spell to gain some life, or end their turn thinking they can deathstar anyone who targets it. Grave Pact is also a good callout sine it just got reprinted and is more available. Had a blue player with Isochron Scepter on Mission Briefing with a GY full of permission. EOT Krosan Grip = sad control player

I think this is the crux of it for me. I'm a fan of Nature's Claim as much as anyone else, because the tempo advantage is juicy, but when you need Krosan Grip, you really need Krosan Grip.

I would even go so far as to say Wipe Away is far more playable than most people give credit.

[Dunadain]

How great would it feel to dunk on a Aetherflux Reservoir when they cast a little spell to gain some life, or end their turn thinking they can deathstar anyone who targets it. Grave Pact is also a good callout sine it just got reprinted and is more available. Had a blue player with Isochron Scepter on Mission Briefing with a GY full of permission. EOT Krosan Grip = sad control player

I think this is the crux of it for me. I'm a fan of Nature's Claim as much as anyone else, because the tempo advantage is juicy, but when you need Krosan Grip, you really need Krosan Grip.

I would even go so far as to say Wipe Away is far more playable than most people give credit.

Wipe Away is sweet. Maybe even the best split-second spell out there.

[Toshi]

artifact/enchantments removal rarely needs split second.

altar of dementia
ashnods altar
attrition
basalt monolith
blasting station
bolas's citadel
fanatical devotion
goblin bombardment
greater good
grinding station
isochron scepter
jeweled lotus
krark-clan ironworks
martyrs cause
mindslaver
necropotence
omniscience
pernicious deed
pestilence
phyrexian altar
pyrohemia
shadowspear
sneak attack
spawning pit
time sieve
...

Your meta must look a lot different than mine.

[PrimevalCommander]

I have played Wipe Away some, but have never realized the same impact as K-Grip. I like a cantrip or token protection in my current bounce suite. But I'm generally bouncing creatures for tempo gains and countering other nasty permanents.

[Dunadain]

artifact/enchantments removal rarely needs split second.

altar of dementia
ashnods altar
attrition
basalt monolith
blasting station
bolas's citadel
fanatical devotion
goblin bombardment
greater good
grinding station
isochron scepter
jeweled lotus
krark-clan ironworks
martyrs cause
mindslaver
necropotence
omniscience
pernicious deed
pestilence
phyrexian altar
pyrohemia
shadowspear
sneak attack
spawning pit
time sieve
...

Your meta must look a lot different than mine.

I mean, making a list of cards is cute and all, but if you really wanted to have a conversation I think explaining why split-second artifact/enchantment removal is good would have been a lot more compelling.

I didn't say it was useless, I just think creature removal, and, in particular board wipes, are even more compelling.

But, if we are going to be snarky:

Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar are mana abilities, so split-second doesn't even work, they can still sac things with grip on the stack.

And a lot of these, your opponents can just hold priority. Cast them and, after they resolve, immediately activate them, their is no window for Krosan Grip to interact with them if you do.

Don't get me wrong, it's still one of, if not THE best option to deal with many of these permanents (well, actually, a counterspell would be better against almost all of these, but has additional restrictions, so that's an apples to oranges comparison), but it's also relatively easy to play around Krosan Grip with a lot of the options you brought up.

Edit: my spelling is atrocious XD

[Mookie]

And a lot of these, your opponents can just hold priority, just cast them and, after they resolve, immediately activate them, their is no window for Krosan Grip to interact with them if you do.

Don't get me wrong, it's still one of, if not THE best option to deal with many of these permanents (well, actually, a counterspell ould be better against almost all of these, but a has additional restrictions, so that's an apples to oranges comparison), but it's also relatively easy to play around Krosan Grip with a lot of the options you brought up.

Yeah, this is my perspective. Krosan Grip is better than Boseiju, Who Endures or another uncounterable effect for around a third of these (like Goblin Bombardment), and theoretically good against another third... but it drops in value significantly if your opponents play around it (such as by activating Mindslaver / Necropotence immediately after resolution). Meanwhile, it's competing against more efficient options like Nature's Claim and Force of Vigor, and more flexible options like Beast Within. I think those cards' upsides are relevant a larger percentage of the time.

[RxPhantom]

I honestly wasn't expecting Krosan Grip to still be viewed so favorably. I still run it in a mono-green deck, but it's been a while since the split second came in clutch for me. Maybe I should keep it in. You all make some compelling points.

[gsgfdf]

A mild hot take, Krosan Grip is mediocre since the beginning of the format. It is useful if your meta is heavy on combo and even then Beast Within will suffice 99% of the time.
Last time I used it was when I was playing in a group that was allergic to removal, leaving me to act as the fun police and try to stop everyone else.

[ISBPathfinder]

I think it has its time and place which is generally against combo decks backed with counter magic but I also think that there is a problem in that a lot of the really busted combos right now are creature ETBs rather than artifact / enchantments. One slightly less problematic card I think it functions really well against is Aetherflux Reservoir as players usually keep it up and respond to things.

I haven't played with or against grip in some time personally because well, its a lot of mana to cast and the only real reason to run it is if you expect counterspell responses or need something that can break an infinite loop without a counterspell. I think most of the time you will see it, its going to under perform running something cheaper like Nature's Claim. I think that keeping the three mana up turn after turn in case you need grip is a lot harder for most decks as well.

So, honestly I think its fairly weak right now but part of that is due to the cost to hold up claim paired with how a lot more combos don't feel like they involve noncreatures right now where in the past it felt like a lot more of them did. You might still be able to hit a Underworld Breach to stop a Dockside Extortionist combo but honestly it feels like there Dockside already won the second it did its first ETB so stopping it from going infinite with an answer doesn't really feel that great to me.

If I were to judge the power of Krosan Grip in today's day I would probably rate it like a 1.5/5 just because while there is some power in its split second I think its far too niche to justify the higher mana cost of its effect.

[NZB2323]

I don't play in a lot of cEDH metas, and I've never been the biggest fan of the card. My green artifacts/enchantment removal suit is Nature's Claim, Return to Nature, Boseiju, Who Endures, and Beast Within.

And frankly I'm kind of more down on cards like Beast Within now then I was in 2017 when I first got into commander. We have more removal spells now that cost 1 or 2 mana.

[Moxnix]

I don't really run it just so many good options today force of vigor etc. I do know that it saw so much play years ago I still hold CTRL on mtgo post necro to draw my 8 or whatever cards before I pas prio just because split second exists.

[RxPhantom]

I meant to bring up Wilt in the OP. I really like this card since you can just cycle it if you don't have a good target. But, like I actually mentioned in the OP, Forsake the Worldly's stock has gone up for me because The One Ring can go to hell.

[gsgfdf]

I meant to bring up Wilt in the OP. I really like this card since you can just cycle it if you don't have a good target. But, like I actually mentioned in the OP, Forsake the Worldly's stock has gone up for me because The One Ring can go to hell.

Wilt and Forsake the Worldly make me feel like I always missplay them. I feel like I need to hold them back and cycle them the moment I have left over. I would much rather run Return to Nature, just for ease of mind.

[onering]

It's behind only Force, and tied with rec sage and nature's claim. Rec sage I actually class differently since it's sorcery speed and on a critter, so it really serves a different role. The other three you hold onto until they are needed and fire them off to take care of something that absolutely must die, while there's plenty of reasons throughout the game to play rec sage for value. It fits in a lot of decks that will just be able to blink it or recur it, or which gets value from it being a creature, and there is incentive to play it aggressively to take out a stronger rock or whatever the best thing on the field is rather than hold onto it. You really don't want to hold it only to lose to an enchantment or artifact you needed an instant speed answer for. The grip makes the cut over nature's claim if I'm limiting copies of this effect because for me being absolutely sure it will answer a threat is the most important thing. Claim only edges it out when I expect my deck to play right with it's available mana most of the time so being cheaper becomes more reliable than split second. It's why I think Claim is the better card in cEDH, but Grip is better most of the rest of the time. Force is just absurd.

[umtiger]

Isn't Aetherflux enough of a reason to include this when possible?

I don't need to have the lowest casting cost all of the time because of the power level I currently play in, so this has been an auto-include for me.

My playgroup is still adjusting to responding to triggers/abilities and not just spells on the stack. So my view on cards have had to evolve, but Aetherflux is my use case