[Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread

[kirkusjones]

@Jemolk Let's please not have that discussion. I do not want to have cite my forum posts in APA or provide 10,000 annotated footnotes in an attempt at argumentative clarity.

Ah, the downsides of going in-depth with academic rigor. So many downsides. I suspect that after a few too many lazy afternoons, I might start feeling like dissecting Hegel would be just the thing I'd want to do for fun, and the citations would be well worth it, but that's certainly not where I'm at right now.

P.S.: APA format wouldn't necessarily be required. I believe most philosophy journals go by the Chicago Manual of Style formatting for citations these days instead. So, in addition to citations, learning a new style of citation. CMoS might also just be the single most needlessly complicated citation format I've seen. Fun fun.

Chicago is worse than Turabian?

[DirkGently]

I never would have expected I'd so frequently agree with someone pseudonymed "TheAmericanSpirit", lol.

Side conversation - for those who have a philosophical/personality ordering for the colors, how much does that order correspond to their preferences in the game?

For me it's a bit tricky since (as a limited player) I try to stay pretty open on the colors, but I do think green is probably my least favorite, followed by red (red has some really fun cool strategies that I love, but the bulk of red's cards are pretty bland aggro stuff). So that tracks with my color order (UWBRG for those who didn't memorize it), but I'm not sure about the other ones.

* checks stats on my tracking app *

Huh, this is more interesting than I thought. I'm gonna record it all here.

1 colorless
7 mono-white
13 mono-blue
13 mono-black
10 mono-red
6 mono-green
4 white-blue
9 blue-black
4 black-red
2 red-green
2 green-white
8 white-black
6 black-green
3 green-blue
3 blue-red
10 red-white
2 esper
3 grixis
1 jund
1 naya
3 bant
1 abzan
5 sultai
3 temur
2 jeskai
3 mardu
1 anti-white
1 anti-blue
2 anti-black
1 anti-red
1 anti-green
6 5c

So that brings the totals per color (counting each 2c as .5 per color, 3c as .33, etc):
white: 25.45
blue: 29.95
black: 32.7
red: 26.28
green: 19.62

So my play order is:
Black >> blue >> red > white >>> green
And as a refresher, my philosophy order is:
Blue > white > black > red >>> green

Interesting. I will say that some of that is pretty skewed by really old decks at this point - I made a lot of mono-blue lists in college.

[RxPhantom]

All this philosophy talk is overwhelming my science brain. Seriously though, how can anyone have a problem with any kind of thoughtful introspection?

Anyway, some of you may remember a few pages ago when I shared a story of my administering naloxone and CPR to someone who collapsed in my store. Well, I received a commendation from the county commissioners yesterday, and the whole thing was orchestrated by my coworkers. It was really cool. It made the rounds on local FB news sites. It's a strange sensation to have my impostor syndrome collide headlong into a moderate number of people of saying nice things about me on the internet.

[BeneTleilax]

Glad it turned out for the best!

Regarding the color pie thing, I'm with Goose. It can be fun to do if you silo the conclusions into a mental %$#% folder, but seriously building philosophy or self-concept on fundamentally unserious foundations is a road that ends in those people who vote based on Hogwarts houses.

[DirkGently]

There's 2 ways of approaching it: Either I'm X color therefore I believe Y, or I believe Y, which fits most closely with X color. I think using the color pie as a framework to express perspectives you've cultivated entirely separate from the color pie is fine - it's just creating a new sort of language for expression, not significantly changing the thoughts expressed.

I think the sign of a problematic discourse is when people strongly identify with one particular color exclusively, and then force more of their perspectives to fit into that box to better become that particular thing, which is an entirely different phenomenon than what I've seen in this thread. I think when you're ranking all the colors and seeing things you agree and disagree with each, it becomes a way to examine yourself rather than mold yourself, and I think that's almost entirely positive.

[Jemolk]

Glad it turned out for the best!

Regarding the color pie thing, I'm with Goose. It can be fun to do if you silo the conclusions into a mental %$#% folder, but seriously building philosophy or self-concept on fundamentally unserious foundations is a road that ends in those people who vote based on Hogwarts houses.

Why do you figure we're building philosophy or self-conception on these as foundations, though? Dunno for sure about anyone else, I suppose, but me, I'm filtering ideas I've already thought about through Magic terminology for a fun exercise and a pleasant conversation.

Side conversation - for those who have a philosophical/personality ordering for the colors, how much does that order correspond to their preferences in the game?

Somewhat oddly, for my part. Black is my most played color by a decent margin, while philosophically, it's the one I have by far the least in common with. Mechanically, I find it fun to play around with, though its ethos is quite contrary to my own. Blue and white are up there in both metrics. Red's play numbers are skewed upwards heavily by my love of dragons, but I think it still falls behind blue and white by a decent margin, at least if you count my decks from other formats, including past standards. If you only count EDH decks, red might surpass white due to the sheer number of Grixis decks I have. Green is my least played color by a pretty decent margin, and even when I do play it it remains mostly just a support color. It's also the second-to-last in philosophical order, but black is so far behind in philosophical ranking that I'm not sure that paints a particularly accurate picture. I just don't enjoy green's play patterns that much. I find the excessive focus on creatures extremely repetitive and therefore boring.

Chicago is worse than Turabian?

Turabian appears to be a variation on Chicago, meaning they're bad in many of the same ways.

[Yatsufusa]

If we're going to self-introspect Magic Colors in a way similar to how we classify ourselves in a MBTI system, then in some ways we need to recognize each color also has a "extraverted" and "introverted" side to them and whether you're most dominantly recognized by which side. If we were to "simplify" it (or at least try to), then we can define "introverted" as the "ideology" of each color (why are you doing it?) and "extraverted" as the "methodology" of each color (how are you doing it?).

For example, W and B probably have one of the most obvious polarizing rankings, but if someone says they're W first and B last because they care about others and they aren't ruthless, technically I could argue that altruism is W-(ideology) while ruthlessness is B-(methodology), while someone else with a opposite ranking could say it's because they admit they do things with their own selfishness first-in-mind and don't like to control others on a societal level, but that's because "selfishness" is B-(ideology) and societal control is W-(methodology).

And even then, each ideology or methodology themselves are also two-sided. We're all "selfish" to a certain degree, strictly speaking and judging that, even on/by yourself is actually tremendously difficult, it's easy to conflate methodology (not even necessarily even B's methodology, any color's) in an attempt to "neutralize" it. "I'm not ruthless, so what small selfish stuff I do on a daily basis that doesn't hurt anyone doesn't make me selfish even if I do it everyday", or "I exert societal control and everyone listens to me, so therefore what I do isn't considered socially wrong and therefore I'm now altruistic" are easy fallacies to fall into (and arguably the second one could be argued to be a root problem of why things go really wrong on in society as a whole, but I'm not going to digress).

Magic, as a game (luxury product) based on fantasy had to compress everything into easy-to-understand systems, so a lot of actual nuance is lost. Heck, we've been influenced by the game's design that doesn't technically adhere to some of the colors. "Control" is technically W methodology, but I don't think I need to go through Magic's history to see why we've more or less been conditioned to associate control with U instead (by the way U's methodology is actually organization, because you don't control knowledge like people, just organize it). It's so bad that we saw Azorius (the guild) as an acceptable mix of the two colors (W ideology and U "methodology"), but I could argue that Azorius is technically just W, there's no pursuit of knowledge and what organizing they do is a subset of control they want to exert over the masses.

I'm almost tempted to deep-dive into each color's ideology & methodology and how each could be viewed positively/negatively (so basically 20 definitions), but even I personally find it too much effort for the returns to be worth it (especially when it's easy to conflate other ideologies/methodologies to make another look better/worse), especially when we're doing this "for fun". Either way, some people are recognized largely by their ideology while others are by their methodology. If we follow MBTI standards (if you're defined as dominant in an extraverted function, your secondary-most-defined-function should be an introverted one, although MBTI itself as a system is often questioned for that), it's not surprising people tend to think in alternates when justifying their ranking order.

I'm not going to give a full-blown ranking of my own either, but that's because I was more interested in reverse-engineering the system itself, which would plant me firmly in a U-methodology as my dominant "Color" (reverse-engineering being a subset/skill of organizing). That would put R methodology (not ideology) as my least favorite, because my impression seems to associate it with people who act without thinking and that it acts as the worse sort of reinforcement for/from "malice" (folks that like to leave favors/debts unreturned because the "I forgot and acted rashly" excuse worked, so they chose to adopt the reckless life to cover for their malice, and that tends to snowball into a trainwreck faster than other still-not-but-less-favorable-malice-coverups).

[Legend]

I feel like Hasbro really missed an opportunity with Bone Flute.

[Dunharrow]

I am with @Jemolk in that I philosophically am least-aligned with black, but that it is my favourite color. I don't think play preference matches personal philosophy very well.

I also want to say that using color pie philosophy to see a different perspective on yourself is a fun activity, same as doing a quiz to see which Hogwarts house you align with (Hufflepuff for me since I am so Selesnya). The point isn't to say "I am green, so I should be against technological progress". The world is not made up of Ents and Sarumans.
This exercise actually caused me to think a lot about white philosophy. I really associate with fairness, equal access, morality... but really do not associate with law and order. I am a messy person who is cynical about government and law enforcement.
I don't leave this saying "I am Selesnya, and I should behave that way". I leave this reflecting upon my values and knowing that the color pie is not a super accurate way to define it.

Still, it is fun, and always good to reflect upon your motives and values.

[TheGildedGoose]

Yeah, but if you're building a pillowfort for a nerf war with your nephew, does it really matter what tools you use? You're missing the point. We're here for entertainment. We play magic for entertainment.

The rest of most of our lives will be alternately hard, serious, or boring. When I'm on a forum talking about a game in which I pretend to be a multi-dimensional wizard summoning dragons and casting fireballs, I am not necessarily seeking intellectual nutrition. I am seeking other people interested in being multi-dimensional wizards and I for one would love to hear what kind of wizard they think they'd be.

Edit: why don't you just tell us your colors already instead of being pretentious? We know Black is probably #1, but c'mon. Play the game, Harding.

Acknowledging that "What Color Are You?" is dumpster-tier discussion with content as meaningful as the results of a "What My Little Pony Character Are You?" Internet quiz doesn't change the fact that we have people in this very thread trying to use those pillows to build a substantial shelter.

I mean, sure. In the foul year of our Lord 2022 the idea of badwrongfun is absurd and antiquated, so, you know. Do whatever you want. Just be aware: garbage in, garbage out.

Put another way: if you're spending this much time thinking about and analyzing things in terms of a card game's, uh, "philosophy" then you probably have the time to actually explore these topics seriously and should do that instead.

Could do that instead, but why not just do both? Philosophy's fun, but it can sometimes be a bit convoluted, so why not use some Magic terms to assist?

I mean, sure, I could describe myself in terms of analytic philosophy, and talk about the moral philosophies of Kant and Bentham, and where I think each go seriously wrong, and how I resolve those issues. My self-description would certainly become more detailed and precise if I'm more explicitly drawing on Albert Camus' absurdism, since I align fairly closely with it. I'd also probably involve some more niche philosophers and their ideas, like drawing on the neurophilosophy of Douglas Hofstadter, and I could discuss why I disagree with John Searle's takes on the same. And of course, the rabbit hole has still barely begun, so there's far more to dive into. And all of that's good fun, given an audience of philosophers. But that gets pretty arcane, doesn't it? Not the sort of discussion that's even easy to follow if you're not spending a bunch of time studying philosophy. And for a more basic discussion, Magic colors work well enough as a starting point.

Well, it's one thing to use a limited system to understand yourself and the world. It's another thing to analyze that system critically. Obviously, I don't think anyone here is unintelligent enough to think that Magic's color philosophies are comprehensive and nuanced enough to live by in any serious capacity. Just the same, people take this stuff seriously. Remember those cringey "What Color Are You?" quizzes that had images you could put into your signature on Magic forums? Remember the custom photoshop ones that were even cringier? Remember the guy on Twitter who got an Orzhov tattoo?

I mean, I guess everyone starts somewhere, and everyone experiences a ton of stuff they have to unlearn or recontextualize as they get older, so what's one more system, right?

I was going to analogize analyzing things in terms of Magic colors to analyzing things in terms of MBTI and how both are fundamentally flawed and shouldn't be taken seriously but someone in this very thread already invoked MBTI to analyze the colors (in part, at least) which is... fascinating.

[RxPhantom]

@TheGildedGoose am I missing a sly level of sarcasm, or are you doubling down on the smug condescension? Nobody is using the color pie as a foundational understanding of themselves (nor did something so obvious need to be pointed out), but we are using it as a lens to describe ourselves to others. Harmlessly.

[materpillar]

Well, it's one thing to use a limited system to understand yourself and the world. It's another thing to analyze that system critically. Obviously, I don't think anyone here is unintelligent enough to think that Magic's color philosophies are comprehensive and nuanced enough to live by in any serious capacity. Just the same, people take this stuff seriously. Remember those cringey "What Color Are You?" quizzes that had images you could put into your signature on Magic forums? Remember the custom photoshop ones that were even cringier? Remember the guy on Twitter who got an Orzhov tattoo?

I mean, I guess everyone starts somewhere, and everyone experiences a ton of stuff they have to unlearn or recontextualize as they get older, so what's one more system, right?

I was going to analogize analyzing things in terms of Magic colors to analyzing things in terms of MBTI and how both are fundamentally flawed and shouldn't be taken seriously but someone in this very thread already invoked MBTI to analyze the colors (in part, at least) which is... fascinating.

Sounds to me like TheGildedGoose is B>U>W>R>G.

Putting their own (B) intellectual experiences/view of philosophical (U) as superior to those around them but still respecting the need for order (W) that people are trying to impose on philosophy. Then, just a dash of rebelliousness (R) against the current community outlook (G).


Anyway, as I said last page I really enjoy trying to creatively express myself inside of rigid law systems. I find that being creative inside rigid rules is the most enjoyable way to be creative (even if the rules I'm being creative inside suck, like magic's hilariously streamlined mana colors).

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Acknowledging that "What Color Are You?" is dumpster-tier discussion with content as meaningful as the results of a "What My Little Pony Character Are You?" Internet quiz doesn't change the fact that we have people in this very thread trying to use those pillows to build a substantial shelter.

I mean, sure. In the foul year of our Lord 2022 the idea of badwrongfun is absurd and antiquated, so, you know. Do whatever you want. Just be aware: garbage in, garbage out.

Dude, I think you're pretty cool ngl but you're contradicting yourself all over the place and you still don't get it. And worst of all, after rewriting this post six times, I realize I am inadequately eloquent to explain the concept of 'a good time' to you. I'll just tell you that when you finally have one, you'll understand! You eat the candybar despite its lack of nutrition, not because of it. And you do it because it's delicious and that's satisfaction enough, but it's even better if you can share it among friends.

Anyway, I hope whatever bug crawled up your ass crawls back out. This is a damn weird thing to take umbrage with, especially on a website called MTGNexus.

[RxPhantom]

I just preordered my Secret Lairs. I'm sure they'll be here by Christmas next year. Maybe.

Re: my color identity. If forced to do so on the fly, I can safely say I'm Jeskai, but human complexity being what it is, that obviously isn't the end of the story, I will say that as I get older, I am able to better manage the negative aspects of my personality, and I embrace the positive aspects of quite a bit more.

[TheGildedGoose]

@TheGildedGoose am I missing a sly level of sarcasm, or are you doubling down on the smug condescension? Nobody is using the color pie as a foundational understanding of themselves (nor did something so obvious need to be pointed out), but we are using it as a lens to describe ourselves to others. Harmlessly.

A little of Column A, a little of Column B.

To be clear: I am being intentionally provocative and maybe a little antagonistic, but without malice.

I dispute the idea that no one uses Magic's color pie philosophy to know themselves. I guess I can't find any evidence so I'm not going to really pursue this argument but the existence of those incredibly cringey MTGS signatures I remember is proof enough for me.

I dispute the notion that this is harmless. Clearly it's not on the same level as, say, murder, but to continue the house-as-ideology metaphor, it's important to be mindful of the components you use to build the house. The tools and materials we use that aren't very good (Magic's simplistic and ultimately simulationist game-y philosophy, MBTI, astrology, online personality quizzes writ large) will ultimately form a poorly constructed house. The simple act of use normalizes and conditions us to accept them as valid.

[Hermes_]

@TheGildedGoose Snob

__

Anyway, I honestly don't know enough about the color pie to say one way or the other, but as far as which Hogwarts house, I took the quiz on Pottermore a few years back and got Gryffindor but I feel like a Hufflepuff more often than not.

[tstorm823]

I took the quiz on Pottermore a few years back and got Gryffindor but I feel like a Hufflepuff more often than not.

To be fair, everyone is a Hufflepuff, so they have to lie to 3/4 of people.

[TheGildedGoose]

Acknowledging that "What Color Are You?" is dumpster-tier discussion with content as meaningful as the results of a "What My Little Pony Character Are You?" Internet quiz doesn't change the fact that we have people in this very thread trying to use those pillows to build a substantial shelter.

I mean, sure. In the foul year of our Lord 2022 the idea of badwrongfun is absurd and antiquated, so, you know. Do whatever you want. Just be aware: garbage in, garbage out.

Dude, I think you're pretty cool ngl but you're contradicting yourself all over the place and you still don't get it. And worst of all, after rewriting this post six times, I realize I am inadequately eloquent to explain the concept of 'a good time' to you. I'll just tell you that when you finally have one, you'll understand! You eat the candybar despite its lack of nutrition, not because of it. And you do it because it's delicious and that's satisfaction enough, but it's even better if you can share it among friends.

Anyway, I hope whatever bug crawled up your ass crawls back out. This is a damn weird thing to take umbrage with, especially on a website called MTGNexus.

I'm having a good time.

This is a far more interesting conversation than what was originally planned. Not entirely Magic related, I guess, though this is the off topic chat thread.

@TheGildedGoose Snob

__

Anyway, I honestly don't know enough about the color pie to say one way or the other, but as far as which Hogwarts house, I took the quiz on Pottermore a few years back and got Gryffindor but I feel like a Hufflepuff more often than not.

A tale full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@TheGildedGoose okay, I can live with you being a contrarian. I'm just relieved you're not actually so dense and/or cynical that explaining fun was necessary, because breaking down the idea of "enjoyment" into its basic philosophical elements was a task I found extremely daunting.

[materpillar]

I dispute the notion that this is harmless. Clearly it's not on the same level as, say, murder, but to continue the house-as-ideology metaphor, it's important to be mindful of the components you use to build the house. The tools and materials we use that aren't very good (Magic's simplistic and ultimately simulationist game-y philosophy, MBTI, astrology, online personality quizzes writ large) will ultimately form a poorly constructed house. The simple act of use normalizes and conditions us to accept them as valid.

That's kind of an interesting observation. I have personally wondered a lot about where the line is for these kind of things. Every action you take and person or item your interact with affects your person. That's why constant advertising barrages are so affective. Interacting with this forum is affecting my personal worldview to some extent. I mean I was legitimately sad that I had a scheduling conflict and can't make it to the command fest. That was this website having a direct and observable impact on my emotions. I have felt a draw to play my Changeling Deck so that I can keep up with my primer thread.

So how much fun but bad for you stuff is ok? Where do you draw that line exactly? It can be clearer with extreme things like drugs. What about graphic movies or TV? What about more extreme books? How much much should you expose yourself to evil to be aware of it and able to defend yourself from it but still not letting it overly affect your actions. On one end you have gullible nativity that permits the existence of evil because it ignores it and in the other end crippling PTSD that doesn't have the strength to fight anymore.

That being said pretty sure magic has already eroded itself into our personalities already since we're on an incredibly niche forum using it to explain our mental psychology. All of our houses are pretty eroded by mtg already. That ship has rather sailed here.

[RxPhantom]

Using Magic as a lens to give insight to others into our personalities is useful, as all of us, presumably, have the game in common. We understand it, and we can use it in this context to understand each other a little better, and maybe have some good discussion. Overall, any personality inventory or quiz, from the MBTI to Buzzfeed, will always fail to properly account for our vast individual complexity. We are too complicated to be summed up, but I still maintain that this particular discussion is harmless.

Side note, I've only seen one Harry Potter movie, and it was one of the middle ones. Behold me, for I am hipster.

[BeneTleilax]

We are too complicated to be summed up, but I still maintain that this particular discussion is harmless.

It can be a good way to start a conversation, I agree. But Goose and I chimed it when it had become the conversation. At that point it's phatic at best. At worst these sort of fantastical-reductionist systems have a funny way of going from "we all know it's a joke" to someone getting mass-harassed for their "toxic Leo vibes". Also, while summing up what philosophies you ascribe to is also a lossy compression of the self, at least it gets the conversation on to ideas, rather than identities. I'd say that's the qualitative difference between the two. It's not just level of intricacy and thoughtfulness that goes into it, it's that one acknowledges that we are more than our ideas, that there is a difference between what we think and who we are. That the former can change without the latter dying. Wear your skins loose, so you can shed them as you grow.

Anyway, I'm into of earlyish Karl Popper, Decartes, Macrina of Nyssa and Epicurus at the moment.

[kirkusjones]

Using Magic as a lens to give insight to others into our personalities is useful, as all of us, presumably, have the game in common. We understand it, and we can use it in this context to understand each other a little better, and maybe have some good discussion. Overall, any personality inventory or quiz, from the MBTI to Buzzfeed, will always fail to properly account for our vast individual complexity. We are too complicated to be summed up, but I still maintain that this particular discussion is harmless.

Side note, I've only seen one Harry Potter movie, and it was one of the middle ones. Behold me, for I am hipster.

Consider yourself beheld. Do you feel like the little spoon, tucked safe into the harbor of your beholding, or is this more of an ass-out, awkward sibling type situation? I'm cool with either, just trying to assess the vibe of the beholdment.

[RxPhantom]

Using Magic as a lens to give insight to others into our personalities is useful, as all of us, presumably, have the game in common. We understand it, and we can use it in this context to understand each other a little better, and maybe have some good discussion. Overall, any personality inventory or quiz, from the MBTI to Buzzfeed, will always fail to properly account for our vast individual complexity. We are too complicated to be summed up, but I still maintain that this particular discussion is harmless.

Side note, I've only seen one Harry Potter movie, and it was one of the middle ones. Behold me, for I am hipster.

Consider yourself beheld. Do you feel like the little spoon, tucked safe into the harbor of your beholding, or is this more of an ass-out, awkward sibling type situation? I'm cool with either, just trying to assess the vibe of the beholdment.

I'm not sure how to answer that. I just want you to think I'm cool and interesting for eschewing something so widely adored.

On an unrelated note, I purchased three Secret Lairs today, including Pride of the Multiverse. I have a use for most of the cards, my LGS blows so I don't feel guilty, and I like giving the "get woke, go broke" crowd a personal little FU. And yes, before anyone starts, I know this may seem like the usual corporate, insincere Pride month crap. I'd be more cynical if the art wasn't so damn good.

[Hermes_]

EDIT: Wahooo this is my 1000th post