Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[tstorm823]

But I do find it kinda weird in instances like this, where you came into the conversation I was having with another party, and (I would argue) reinterpret what the other party said. Maybe you actually do/did feel that their POV was that they "liked" alternative frames as an option for other people to use, but I really don't think that interpretation is supported by anything they posted, and I don't think it's typically a way that humans interact with the question "do you like ____?" So, to me, it feels like you started with "Dirk must be wrong, so whatever interpretation demonstrates that he is wrong must be the correct one." rather than trying to make an honest attempt to understand what RxPhantom meant and going from there.

I wanted to address your logic when you saw Phantom's post as self-contradicting. I don't think anything Phantom said would lead to the conclusion that they like things for other people to play them, that was an idea we brought about, but I feel illustrates a way in which one could like something without intending to play it, or could have their experience improved by it while liking it less than the default. I wasn't reinterpreting things that were said, I was aiming for an end result that establishes that liking something while preferring the default is not a contradiction. That's what was needed to close the missed connections.

And then we could maybe approach the secondary question as "even if you like the old border, if you prefer the new one, wouldn't you rather they stop using the old one?" Which I think gets to where you want to be without someone having to defend while they aren't stating a logical contradiction. The part about other people enjoying them would be my answer to that question, but perhaps there are others who would find more agreement with the idea of them not old-bordering new cards from that position.

C'mon, it was obviously a rhetorical question.

But fine: it was such a comically bad "question, presented as an opportunity for the person being asked to better express themselves" that I jumped in,

"Sophistry" is the right word for what's going on here XD

I did not ask that knowing how DirkGently would answer, Dirk and I don't think the same. But if that were rhetorical, if that was presented as a leading question, my expectation would be that the answer was no. You jumped in to answer, emphatically, "yes". You are all the evidence you need that it was not a rhetorical question, that there are real, distinct options in how to answer it.

You can read the discussion after that question. There's no sophistry, nobody is being misled.

[Dunadain]

Yup, this discussion has ceased to be useful, sorry dirk, but I'm peacing out.

[DirkGently]

I wanted to address your logic when you saw Phantom's post as self-contradicting. I don't think anything Phantom said would lead to the conclusion that they like things for other people to play them, that was an idea we brought about, but I feel illustrates a way in which one could like something without intending to play it, or could have their experience improved by it while liking it less than the default. I wasn't reinterpreting things that were said, I was aiming for an end result that establishes that liking something while preferring the default is not a contradiction. That's what was needed to close the missed connections.

Yeah...this all feels like a massive reach to me to avoid conceding the point. I'm fairly certain we've solved the mystery of what RxPhantom meant when he said "I think Clamato tastes good. Clamato tastes much worse than water." He just really enjoys all beverages - there are no bad beverages to him, just different degrees of awesomeness. It seemed like a contradiction (because I assumed that any beverage someone likes less than water would be considered disliked), but there was never a true logical contradiction, it was just an (imo) unusual opinion phrased in an (imo) very confusing way. When I said it seemed like a contradiction, I thought there was at least a coin flip shot that he'd come back with "oops, I made a typo - I meant to say Clamato tastes bad" or "oops, I meant Clamato tastes much better than water."

None of that has any relationship to how I feel about tribal cards. I don't "like" tribal cards, nobody who has similar feelings about something would describe that perspective as "liking" that thing, and to all indications it wasn't how RxPhantom meant he "liked" the neo-old border. The water has only been muddied by this comparison.

And then we could maybe approach the secondary question as "even if you like the old border, if you prefer the new one, wouldn't you rather they stop using the old one?" Which I think gets to where you want to be without someone having to defend while they aren't stating a logical contradiction. The part about other people enjoying them would be my answer to that question, but perhaps there are others who would find more agreement with the idea of them not old-bordering new cards from that position.

I was only ever interested in people's aesthetic opinions of the frame being applied to new cards. I do not care if someone thinks its a net positive for the frame to exist in case someone else likes it.

"Who here likes ACDC? "
"I like that it exists for other people to enjoy! "
"Yes, that's clearly exactly what I meant, thank you for your input."

In retrospect it seems the better question I could have asked would be "who here PREFERS the neo-old frame?" but honestly I would never in a million years have guessed the thread would get derailed in this manner.

[Guardman]

"Who here likes ACDC? "
"I like that it exists for other people to enjoy! "
"Yes, that's clearly exactly what I meant, thank you for your input."

Who likes ACDC and Brenda Lee?



It's the Die Hard of Christmas Songs.

In all seriousness, I kind of feel that this discussion has devolved into every talking past each other just to talk. Though that was me mostly skimming after my eyes glazed over.

Moving onto new card discussion, the more I think about it, the more I am certain Demand Answers is going to be a chase common of the set in the same vein as Reckless Impulse is. Most red decks have artifacts to sacrifice and I see a lot of mono red and boros decks playing a lot more card selection, card draw/impulse draw, and card filtering than even a few years ago.

[cheonice]

Moving onto new card discussion, the more I think about it, the more I am certain Demand Answers is going to be a chase common of the set in the same vein as Reckless Impulse is. Most red decks have artifacts to sacrifice and I see a lot of mono red and boros decks playing a lot more card selection, card draw/impulse draw, and card filtering than even a few years ago.

Oh, it will. I'm already planning to put it into several decks.

[NZB2323]

I had no idea there was a story already. It seems weird that there's no mention of Niv-Mizzet, the living guildpact.

Niv will be in the set, they said there would be 6 guild leaders and niv and they will be getting guild leader frames.

The entire story, if I'm not mistaken, takes place within the confines of the Manor.

Correct, the story of Karlov Manor will take place all (or mostly) in the manor.

The set of Karlov Manor will show cards from all over Ranvica

And the plane of Duskmourn is inside a giant manor.

Do we know when the next story will come out? It seems weird to me that they released a story on December 5th and haven't released one since then. Usually don't they do a new story every week?

[5colorsrainbow]

Do we know when the next story will come out?

Chapters 2-10 will be released over January 8–18

It seems weird to me that they released a story on December 5th and haven't released one since then. Usually don't they do a new story every week?

They are trying something new and released the first chapter as a "preview" with the first look of the set.

[duducrash]

Maro's teasers for Karlov Manner just dropped


First up, here are some things you can expect:

• white gets a card that lets you play a subset off the top of the deck

• a new enchantment subtype Case

• a card with four different hybrid symbols in its mana cost

• a popular mechanic returns tweaked with a new name

• a green sorcery that you can have any number of in your deck

• a keyword mechanic not printed in a premier set since 2008 returns on a single card

• a creature that allows you an alternate nonmana cost for all your spells

• some creature tokens in the set: (note that some have abilities) 0/0 green Ooze, 0/0 colorless Thopter (also artifact), 0/1 green Plant, 1/1 black Bat, 1/1 white Dog, 1/1 red Goblin, 1/1 white Human, 1/1 blue Merfolk, 1/1 white and black Spirit, 1/1 colorless Thopter (also artifact), 2/1 black Skeleton, 2/1 black and green Spider, 2/2 white and blue Detective, 2/2 red Imp, and 5/5 green and white Wolf

• And yes, Murder is in the set

Next, here are some rules text that will be showing up on cards:

• "Whenever a creature an opponent controls dies, if its toughness was less than 1, draw a card."

• "Choose any number of target players."

• "Creature cards in your graveyard gain 'You may cast this card from your graveyard' until end of turn."

• "Then sacrifice it if it has five or more bloodstain counters on it."

• "you may search your graveyard, hand, and/or library for a card named Magnifying Glass and/or a card named Thinking Cap and put them onto the battlefield."

• "target opponent gains control of any number of target permanents you control."

• "If an ability of a creature you control with power 2 or less triggers, that ability triggers an additional time."

• "As long as there are no cards in your library,"

• "If one or more tokens would be created under your control, those tokens plus a Clue token are created instead."

• "Whenever you sacrifice a Clue, target opponent gets two poison counters."

Here are some creature type lines from the set:

• Creature – Vedalken Artificer Detective

• Creature – Ogre Cleric

• Artifact Creature – Insect Thopter

• Creature – Lammasu

• Creature – Weird Detective

• Creature – Goblin Bard

• Creature – Viashino Assassin

• Artifact Creature – Clue Fish

• Creature – Elf Crocodile Detective

• Legendary Creature – Mole God

Finally, here are some names in the set:

• Airtight Alibi

• Caught Red-Handed

• Deadly Cover-Up

• Eliminate the Impossible

• Homicide Investigator

• Innocent Bystander

• It Doesn't Add Up

• Person of Interest

• Private Eye

• Scene of the Crime

Follow the story each day this week and tune into the debut at 9:00 am PT on Jan 16 on twitch.tv/magic or youtube.com/@mtg to learn whodunit! Can you solve the mystery before detective extraordinaire Alquist Proft?

[duducrash]

• a popular mechanic returns tweaked with a new name

It makes since to be morph, right? as it is a murder mystery. But I also feel they are about to actually use kindred on a card soon.


5/5 green and white Wolf - Voja is back!

• "Whenever you sacrifice a Clue, target opponent gets two poison counters."

Humm...


I'm all in for creature types Mole God and Ogre Cleric lmao

[Lifeless]

Any out of combat poison application piques my interest that's for sure. Too bad it probably can't be played in Fynn.

[kirkusjones]

Old mechanic could be dredge…feels like it would fit the whole murder theme. "Search for remains", maybe? Or perhaps "drag the lake" (you'll find it full of love).

[Dunadain]

I much prefer dredge to morph.

"Elf crocodile detective" sounds ridiculous

[Hawk]

2008 was a year for Morningtide, Shadowmoor, Eventide, and Shards of Alara. That gives us the following mechanics as potentials:

- Prowl, which feels like a slamdunk for a detective set on a one-off card.
- Evoke didn't first appear in 2008, but it did last appear in Standard in 2008. Not impossible.
- Reinforce which feels like a really mediocre mechanic to have return as a one-off even if it technically meets requirements having appeared in Modern Horizons but not a premier set.
- Wither, which isn't totally crazy for a murder mystery set?
- Conspire is a flavor home-run for a murder mystery set and fits the criteria, having appeared on two random designs since 2008 but not in a premier set.
- Persist, which is an excellent mechanic although one that isn't a flavor homerun or anything.
- Retrace, which does feel super flavorful and does technically meet requirements (having appeared on a smattering of Commander cards but not in a set).
- Devour, which isn't terribly flavorful in a vacuum but fits the criteria.
- Exalted, which isn't terribly flavorful in a vacuum either and would be really debatable to meet the criteria (it appeared in a Core Set but not a "premier set").

I suppose technically Clash could work too (it didn't first appear in 2008, but 2008 was the last time it appeared), but I'd be shocked to see Clash return. Before folks mention them - Chroma isn't a keyword, Cycling has had many appearances since 2008, Unearth appeared in Brother's War, My money is strongly on Prowl, followed by Conspire and then Retrace with an outside shot for Evoke.

[duducrash]

I much prefer dredge to morph.

I'll quote maro on this December of 2022, talking about the storm scale

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/makin ... ven-part-1

Level 10: I never say never, but this would require a major miracle

Examples: storm, dredge

So I don't think we'll have dredge on a standard set. and even if we had, would it either be Shenanigans or it would break 4 forms in half

[5colorsrainbow]

• a popular mechanic returns tweaked with a new name

It makes since to be morph, right? as it is a murder mystery. [/quote]

Pretty much 100% confirmed, the GRW commander deck (Deadly Disguise) was said to have a mechanic invoking face down card.

But I also feel they are about to actually use kindred on a card soon.

Likely no, said Atraxa, Grand Unifier didn't name Kindred/Tribal due to it not being standard. We might see one if they reprint something like Bitter Blossom in WOE but otherwise they have said the card type is pretty much retired.

[Hermes_]

• "As long as there are no cards in your library,"

Commander aimmed card I think and

Red fish
blue fish
one fish

• Artifact Creature – Clue Fish

[kirkusjones]

I much prefer dredge to morph.

I'll quote maro on this December of 2022, talking about the storm scale

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/makin ... ven-part-1

Level 10: I never say never, but this would require a major miracle

Examples: storm, dredge

So I don't think we'll have dredge on a standard set. and even if we had, would it either be Shenanigans or it would break 4 forms in half

Eh. Let dredge out of its cage. 4 color beans is all the rage in Legacy, they've already banned all the good dredge stuff in modern and unless they print something on the level of Golgari Grave-Troll or staple dredge 3 onto a great piece of removal, will it really make that many waves in standard?

Correct me if I'm wrong (because I probably am) but isn't MaRo's whole bone to pick with the mechanic is that it allows the game to be played in a non-traditional way?

Storm still has a presence in legacy. Dredge does not. MaRo needs to let it go.

[Hawk]

The trick with dredge according to MaRo isn't that it allows for non-traditional gameplay (although it sure doesn't help that decks exist with no lands and only a plan to Dredge), but that the levers on it are pretty hard to manage from a development standpoint.

- The mana cost of the spell matters some and you can make a Dredge card "bad" with a high enough mana value, but you do have to be careful as for most decks Dredging is its own reward and the actual mana value of the card is functionally irrelevant.
- A bigger dredge number SHOULD be a drawback and cost, and it is for limited, but again - bigger dredge number is actually its own reward. It is hard to design and balance a mechanic where "Dredge 6" is much stronger than "Dredge 1" in most formats.
- But you can't necessarily just make it all "Dredge 1" and "Dredge 2", because Dredge also can allow for repetitive gamestates, which are decidedly unfun. The number of cards you can even put Dredge on is small because a "Dredge Murder" is either going to have to be costed to irrelevance or its going to be a format-warping spell.

That's not to say it's impossible to design a "safe" dredge card (Shenanigans!) , but it is hard to do and the risk of it making a card that breaks the format anyways is high. That's what the storm scale is all about - how deep is the design space, how safe is the design space, and how workable is the mechanic.

[Dunadain]

I much prefer dredge to morph.

I'll quote maro on this December of 2022, talking about the storm scale

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/makin ... ven-part-1

Level 10: I never say never, but this would require a major miracle

Examples: storm, dredge

So I don't think we'll have dredge on a standard set. and even if we had, would it either be Shenanigans or it would break 4 forms in half

Not sure what your trying to say.

If you're trying to say that it won't come back because Maro said so, that's fair enough, but a man can dream! (Besides, storm did come back, and discover is basically cascade, so there is precedent).

If you're trying to say I'm wrong for thinking dredge is a better mechanic than morph because Maro said so. Well that's the beauty of opinions! Maro and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of stuff. Honestly the guy kind of rubs me the wrong way, but he's extremely successful and doesn't need validation from a random stranger like me. 🤷‍♂️

[duducrash]

If you're trying to say I'm wrong for thinking dredge is a better mechanic than morph because Maro said so

Oh no, its much much better and stronger. But the storm scale isnt about that, it's about how likely it is to be printed again on a regular standard set, most likely because of gameplay factors


I'm a fan of dredge gameplay as a whole. I would 100% be scared to see how would it be in today's world, as everycard does several things, imagine a value spell being cast every turn and dredged back

[kirkusjones]

If you're going to print new dredge cards, print graveyard hate in the same set. Good dredge players know how to play around most graveyard hate, but if you stick something like Soul-Guide Lantern and/or Surgical Extraction into the same set/standard environment, it should be fine.

Sure, it makes for repetitive play patterns but so do plenty of other things we deal with on a regular basis. I'm 100% biased as a former LED and manaless dredge player though.

There's nothing like being excited to be on the draw in a legacy tournament when your deck has no lands.

[Cyberium]

Maybe a morph mechanic that attacks Role auras to the face-down creature.

[CommanderMaster999]

• a popular mechanic returns tweaked with a new name

It makes since to be morph, right? as it is a murder mystery. But I also feel they are about to actually use kindred on a card soon.


5/5 green and white Wolf - Voja is back!

• "Whenever you sacrifice a Clue, target opponent gets two poison counters."

Humm...


I'm all in for creature types Mole God and Ogre Cleric lmao

Oh I can definitely confirm it's almost a confession it's morph

In the first look they mentioned a mechanic called "Disguise" and it involves interacting with face down cards

So the naya precon is around that so that deck will definitely have morph cards as reprint (most of the green cards from the kadena deck ofcoarse)

I'm gonna theorize that they trying to boost the power of face down matters for white and red in this set.

a card with four different hybrid symbols in its mana cost

Maro… we know dang well that's niv-mizzet

[Dunadain]

Maro… we know dang well that's niv-mizzet

Nah this is the next step in Omnath, Locus of Manas journey, first sans green omnath.

[NZB2323]

If you're going to print new dredge cards, print graveyard hate in the same set. Good dredge players know how to play around most graveyard hate, but if you stick something like Soul-Guide Lantern and/or Surgical Extraction into the same set/standard environment, it should be fine.

Sure, it makes for repetitive play patterns but so do plenty of other things we deal with on a regular basis. I'm 100% biased as a former LED and manaless dredge player though.

There's nothing like being excited to be on the draw in a legacy tournament when your deck has no lands.

I think they didn't like Dredge in the original Ravnica set, and then reanimator was too powerful of a standard deck for Return to Ravnica.

If you were playing aggro, the deck had Thragtusk to counter it. If you were running removal they could play Restoration Angel to blink the Thragtusk in response to removal. Control didn't really work because Abrupt Decay couldn't be countered and destroyed Detention Sphere, which isn't even that good against Thragtusk. The deck also had Angel of Serenity and Craterhoof Behemoth as a finisher and could name beast for Cavern of Souls for Hoof and Tusk. The deck had ramp with Avacyn's Pilgrim and Farseek, a reanimator spell that could be played from the graveyard in Unburial Rites, and it could fill the graveyard with Mulch and Grisly Salvage to fill the graveyard. And if you played graveyard hate in rest in peace or Deathrite Shaman they could just hardcast their creatures.