Ok, I'm done venting about Golos. Probably. Sorry
![Sticking Out Tongue :P](./images/smilies/3-tongue-fb.png)
While this is true, it takes a fair amount of self-control to intentionally play sub-optimal commanders and cards. Even if no one is trying to break the format, legendary creatures that naturally pull their deckbuilders towards breaking the format making it much harder to not break the format. I know that's really redundant sounding. For example. it's hard to build Chulane in a way that doesn't break things, since his existing in the command zone presents a ton of ramp, draw and potentially combo. So the moment someone picks him as a general, if they're not dramatically self-policing, his mere existence is going to make the meta-game around him significantly less casual friendly. I know I'm hating on Chulane a lot, but that's because I hate Chulane a lot. He's just the most egregious example to me, the more commanders that they release that need self-policing the harder and harder it is to maintain a casual friendly format.ISBPathfinder wrote: ↑4 years agoI think that this is a format that if your goal is to break it, you will. All commanders are viable if you and others aren't trying to break things. The more ramp, draw, and combo you see in your metas probably the less casual friendly its going to be.
busted 5c generals in the last few yearsRumpy5897 wrote: ↑4 years agoWith regards to 5c specifically, I guess once the first dumdum dropped they just figured screw it and kept going. Seeing how busted 5c existed already, it's not like any new barriers were broken. Still, Golos is a step above stuff like First Sliver or Kenrith as you can seriously run him anywhere. Just slam Cascading Cataracts into your 99, and handily fetch it with your commander! Wow!
Ok, I'm done venting about Golos. Probably. Sorry![]()
Brago and animar are definitely among the worse offenders of this phenomenon, yes. Although some animar decks can at least play a bit without him.pokken wrote: ↑4 years agoI just wanted to give you props for really pithily describing this concept I've struggled against myself a lot.DirkGently wrote: ↑4 years agoThe problem really is with commanders, like marchesa, who are very on/off. Probably my best example of a commander like this would be shirei, shizo's caretaker
This concept of on/off commanders culminates with monsters like brago, king eternal and animar, soul of elements for me. I hate playing against those decks because I'm always the bad guy gilded drakeing their commander so they can't play. But then when I don't they go off in explosive fashion and there's no recovering.
I try never to build commanders like this; my Golos decks even, despite Golos being part of this phenomenon, are pretty bad and generally don't generate overwhelming power from Golos since they can only ever activate him once a turn due to the mono-color limitation. Every time I do I wind up regretting it.
I have definitely been on the receiving end of salt for gilded draking (or repeatedly killing) brago, animar, zur, urza, sen triplets, etc. etc. My answer to that has become "You play <> you get what you get."DirkGently wrote: ↑4 years agoAnd yet I've played against people like that, and if you keep removing their commander, they're going to whine about how you're picking on them, and look at how they can't do anything, and you're being such a bully. Well, dude, play something else then. Play something that doesn't make me be a bully. Play something because it's fun or interesting, instead of just because it's powerful.
@DirkGently -- My opinion is yes, having played against every single one in casual and many in CEDH as well.DirkGently wrote: While a lot of those commanders have made splashes in cEDH, and ofc just having access to 5 colors is a huge advantage in a format was such powerful fixing, are they really all "busted"? I mean sure, Tazri in cEDH is a powerful combo deck, but Tazri in a casual table is generally an imminently fair ally tribal. Personally I don't really mind them printing 5c commanders that push towards a janky theme, even if they can be abused in cEDH. cEDH gonna abuse, that's how they do - it doesn't really move the dial much for me.
It's why I included Frogify and Imprisoned in the Moon in my daughter's Alela, Artful Provocateur deck, and one of the several reasons I'm keeping Role Reversal in my Kykar list besides some other more powerful options waiting in the wings. "Permanent" commander removal is just necessary against some of the easy mode commanders printed in the last 5 years or so.pokken wrote: ↑4 years agoThis concept of on/off commanders culminates with monsters like brago, king eternal and animar, soul of elements for me. I hate playing against those decks because I'm always the bad guy gilded drakeing their commander so they can't play. But then when I don't they go off in explosive fashion and there's no recovering.
I can use the same logic to say that storm is fine because of ground rift and dredge is fine because of grave-shell scarab.MeowZeDung wrote: ↑4 years agoA lot of folks are saying that Partner was a mistake. I'm not sure I agree, although I understand why the sentiment exists. I like the Partner mechanic, and I play Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder + Kraum, Ludevic's Opus and don't find it overpowered in the slightest. I think the mistake WotC made with Partner wasn't the mechanic itself, but rather putting that mechanic on hax mode legendaries like Thrasios, Triton Hero and Tymna the Weaver. Can anyone honestly say that Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa, Akiri, Line-Slinger, Tana, the Bloodsower, or Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker are problematic? I guess a close analogy would be that Soulbond wasn't a busted mechanic at all, but the ability that Soulbond gives to Deadeye Navigator and the other creature was pushed a bit much.
Yeah, but if the two commanders are Tana and Ishai is this really an issue?ilovesaprolings wrote: ↑4 years agoI can use the same logic to say that storm is fine because of ground rift and dredge is fine because of grave-shell scarab.
The concept of partner is "i have two commanders while the others have only one". Mentalities like this while designing a mechanic can't lead to a healty format.
I really don't like how tuck is confined to two colors but the spirit of this idea is good.
I agree Boros needs more support, but they already have a fair amount of hate when it comes to ramping and tutoring:Cyberium wrote: ↑4 years agoThings I want to see more:
1) Monocolor support. Not necessarily more powerful monocolor legends, but cards that'd make monocolor more viable, such as Endless Atlas and Nyx Lotus.
2) Punish ramping and mass draw/tutor. We have so many ways to punish graveyard archetype, yet so few against extreme mana/draw and tutoring in early game. More balance/punish cards (such as Alms Collector and Natural Balance) for W/R specifically would give the two weakest colors in this format an edge.
I want to see more endurance. Most EDH games are long, and mono W/R and Boros are short-lived thx to their lack of recycle and card draws. I would ok with it... as long as WotC give W/R more ways to withstand repeat board wipe, that'd in a way reduce their need for card draw and retrieval. Think of it like in RTS game, where some units offers immediate benefit while some last indefinitely.NZB2323 wrote: ↑4 years agoI agree Boros needs more support, but they already have a fair amount of hate when it comes to ramping and tutoring:
Sram and Smothering tithe I feel help out a lot, but it would be nice if Boros had a legend that helped with card draw. Maybe something like, "whenever you cast a spell that's red and white and no other color, draw a card."
Red too has MLD, but damn you for destroying the seven mana I put out by turn 3. /sNZB2323 wrote: ↑4 years agoWhite also has access to Armageddon, but people really don't like seeing that card.
This is kind of part of the problem - there's a lot of people out there that equate the power of a commander with how enjoyable they are to play, and that can get really, really tiresome. It's a no brainer that Narset, Enlightened Master + extra turns/attack phases = win, but that doesn't make it fun.DirkGently wrote: ↑4 years agoBrago and animar are definitely among the worse offenders of this phenomenon, yes. Although some animar decks can at least play a bit without him.
A conversation I once overheard in an LGS: "Gitrog Monster is my favourite commander. If I ever untap with him, I win."
This, to me, is a perfect encapsulation of everything I despise about commander. Commanders who are so broken that the only way to fight against them is to never let them live for even a single turn cycle, and players who are too clueless to see how painfully unfun that is to play against.
What annoys me the most about that overheard conversation was the smugness. Yes, good job, you correctly identified that gitrog monster is a stupid broken card. A commander so busted he cannot even be suffered to live. And that's WHY he likes him. Not because he does something fun or because he creates interesting situations, but because he gives his opponents a binary choice between never letting him do anything, or letting him instantly win. And he was so proud of that, like he solved the %$#%$#% format.
And yet I've played against people like that, and if you keep removing their commander, they're going to whine about how you're picking on them, and look at how they can't do anything, and you're being such a bully. Well, dude, play something else then. Play something that doesn't make me be a bully. Play something because it's fun or interesting, instead of just because it's powerful.
Couldn't agree more - I loved the mechanic itself, and thought MOST of the commanders were designed well enough to be able to chop and change without anything drastically busted. Thrasios, Triton Hero was obviously a bit much as a super cheap mana sink in the command zone, and Tymna was up there too. But otherwise I would love to see more. At any rate, Breya, Etherium Shaper is a combo beast and no one complains about her, so partner can't have been all that bad. I think it's just one or two pushed cards that ruin the vibe for the rest of the batch. That being said, they were all pretty low to the ground for CMC and splash colours as the brewer sees fit, so it seems like it's probably relatively easy to jam a ton of combo into one deck. And that's not the partner mechanic, that's WotC giving an inch and the sort of players that want to break the format taking a mile.MeowZeDung wrote: ↑4 years agoA lot of folks are saying that Partner was a mistake. I'm not sure I agree, although I understand why the sentiment exists. I like the Partner mechanic, and I play Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder + Kraum, Ludevic's Opus and don't find it overpowered in the slightest. I think the mistake WotC made with Partner wasn't the mechanic itself, but rather putting that mechanic on hax mode legendaries like Thrasios, Triton Hero and Tymna the Weaver. Can anyone honestly say that Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa, Akiri, Line-Slinger, Tana, the Bloodsower, or Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker are problematic? I guess a close analogy would be that Soulbond wasn't a busted mechanic at all, but the ability that Soulbond gives to Deadeye Navigator and the other creature was pushed a bit much.
Totally agree. The format desperately needs more cards that punish mana ramp strategies and commanders that draw you tons of cards. The big challenge is how to print cards that can do this while being socially acceptable by the majority of groups. I think Fall of the Thran and Tectonic Hellion are two good recent examples of cards that can deal with mana ramp, and Thought Distortion deals beautifully with card draw greedy blue decks. But they are not enough.Cyberium wrote: ↑4 years agoThings I want to see more:
(…)
2) Punish ramping and mass draw/tutor. We have so many ways to punish graveyard archetype, yet so few against extreme mana/draw and tutoring in early game. More balance/punish cards (such as Alms Collector and Natural Balance) for W/R specifically would give the two weakest colors in this format an edge.
Deck | Power |
---|---|
Inferno | 5 |
Devoured by Dragons | 5 |
Midnight Hunt | 6 |
Hidden Dragon | 6 |
Chaos Reigns | 6 |
Draconic Onslaught | 7 |
We can't simultaneously promote extreme ramping/drawing while forbidding cards that could punish the two, not to mention W/R are the weakest colors on ramp/draw yet greatest at punishing both.Maluko wrote: ↑4 years agoTotally agree. The format desperately needs more cards that punish mana ramp strategies and commanders that draw you tons of cards. The big challenge is how to print cards that can do this while being socially acceptable by the majority of groups. I think Fall of the Thran and Tectonic Hellion are two good recent examples of cards that can deal with mana ramp, and Thought Distortion deals beautifully with card draw greedy blue decks. But they are not enough.
I agree with this point. Though I have become a little more cold to players who play "ON-OFF" commanders that complain when their commander gets hated off the table. I tend to play decks with more resiliency and less All-In nature because of the removal heavy meta I grew up in. If you play a narrow commander and lean too hard into having it on the battlefield, you take a risk of getting shut off by removal. While there may be some feel-bads there, its not my sole responsibility to get overwhelmed in the name of (his/her) fun.DirkGently wrote: ↑4 years agoThe problem really is with commanders, like marchesa, who are very on/off.