Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[Hermes_]

Not looking forward to paying extra for all my drafts and prereleases.

so glad, I never got into limited, I can't wait for the grimacing that will come from you when Commander Master's spoilers really start since it's a reprint set

[DirkGently]

so glad, I never got into limited, I can't wait for the grimacing that will come from you when Commander Master's spoilers really start since it's a reprint set

Limited is the best, purest way to play magic. You should get into it.

Sets with new cards have the power to piss me off if I think they're being badly designed, because even if the set sucks I still feel the need to acquire the cards. Reprint sets just aren't something I care about. I might play the limited format until I lose interest, otherwise I'm happy to just ignore it. The only reason I'd be properly annoyed is if they interrupt normal drafts, and given that this is a multiplayer draft environment I think the drafting crowd will probably have low interest and we'll return to normal drafts more-or-less immediately.

[toctheyounger]

Not looking forward to paying extra for all my drafts and prereleases.

so glad, I never got into limited, I can't wait for the grimacing that will come from you when Commander Master's spoilers really start since it's a reprint set

From memory of the one time I've met Dirk (yes, an IRL Nexus meet up) he mentioned a pretty extensive collection going right back to the early 90s. Not as a brag thing, just a 'smoke em if you got em' thing. So I don't think Masters sets are really aimed at him in most senses.

[Hermes_]

Not looking forward to paying extra for all my drafts and prereleases.

so glad, I never got into limited, I can't wait for the grimacing that will come from you when Commander Master's spoilers really start since it's a reprint set

From memory of the one time I've met Dirk (yes, an IRL Nexus meet up) he mentioned a pretty extensive collection going right back to the early 90s. Not as a brag thing, just a 'smoke em if you got em' thing. So I don't think Masters sets are really aimed at him in most senses.

he's got "gotta catch'em all-itis" lol

[toctheyounger]

so glad, I never got into limited, I can't wait for the grimacing that will come from you when Commander Master's spoilers really start since it's a reprint set

From memory of the one time I've met Dirk (yes, an IRL Nexus meet up) he mentioned a pretty extensive collection going right back to the early 90s. Not as a brag thing, just a 'smoke em if you got em' thing. So I don't think Masters sets are really aimed at him in most senses.

he's got "gotta catch'em all-itis" lol

lol don't we all though?

[materpillar]

Limited is the best, purest way to play magic. You should get into it.

@Hermes_ I agree with this. Limited magic is the best.

There are two possibilities.

Either the development team knew that Flame of Udun was bad but threw it in anyway. We can only speculate as to why, but based on the rest of the set, my best guess is that there was a blanket decision that any character that anybody remembers had to get multiple cards regardless of whether those cards were interesting or added anything of value to the set thematically, mechanically, or aesthetically.

Or they didn't realize that Flame of Udun was extremely uninteresting and bad, in which case the development team is unimaginably incompetent.

I don't think either option speaks well of the process.

I guess I really like garbage cards. Flame of Udun is really bad, but completely uninteresting? I disagree. I love cards with insanely, absurd drawbacks and finding the incredibly niche situation that that card becomes good. Some day, somewhere, someone is going to play The Balrog, Flame of Udûn. Then, they're going to kill an enemy legendary and follow that up by Tunnel Visioning themself naming The Balrog. Maybe, someone will do something silly with Grenzo, Dungeon Warden. I'd rather have an entire set of crappy Balrogs than 1 Chulane, Teller of Tales or Golos, Tireless Pilgrim.

I would mind this set a LOT less if the price was the same as standard sets, given that the power level looks the same if not lower. Not looking forward to paying extra for all my drafts and prereleases.

I proxy almost everything now a days, so this doesn't affect me much anymore. Giant corporation gonna giant corporation.

If anything, the thing that's made me annoyed the most with this set is writing my GBU article because HOLY SWEET JESUS there are so many legendaries, and the vast majority are uninteresting garbage. Every time I think I'm caught up, another dozen drop. Oh, and the price point is a big one.

I'm building up a tolerance to the deluge of legendaries that are every single set now. I don't know that I gave the uncommons anything but the barest glance. Someone played Elenda and Azor against me last week and I barely even bothered to read that because I'm so burned out on learning new legendary creatures.

[edit]: Lol I just re-read Elenda + Azor. That bugger has Ward 2. Pretty sure it got killed several times and literally none of us noticed. XD

[DirkGently]

I guess I really like garbage cards. Flame of Udun is really bad, but completely uninteresting? I disagree. I love cards with insanely, absurd drawbacks and finding the incredibly niche situation that that card becomes good. Some day, somewhere, someone is going to play The Balrog, Flame of Udûn. Then, they're going to kill an enemy legendary and follow that up by Tunnel Visioning themself naming The Balrog. Maybe, someone will do something silly with Grenzo, Dungeon Warden. I'd rather have an entire set of crappy Balrogs than 1 Chulane, Teller of Tales or Golos, Tireless Pilgrim.

I can get behind weird janky designs - case in point,

Unofficial Spoiler Discussion

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Cirdan the Shipwright gets a positive grade from me in my GBU review

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but Udun ain't it. By far the best way to use Udun is to just jam it as a 7/7 for 5 and hope your opponent doesn't play any legendary creatures. That's not interesting. And while I enjoy trying to pull off a difficult achievement - I had a whole deck around using Korlash, Heir to Blackblade's grandeur ability in commander - it has to have a worthwhile payoff at the end. Milling your library via tunnel vision is so much easier to achieve via other ways. And besides that, it's off-color for Udun so he couldn't be your commander.

Which actually brings me to my easy fix for him: Just remove the words "The" and "Flame of Udun" and remove his legendary tag. Presto, he's just a generic Balrog, which he might as well be because nobody is going to CZ him anyway. Morgoth had at least a couple of them didn't he? (just checked - somewhere between 3 and 7 apparently)

Between the deluge of legendaries and the particularly low quality of them in this set, I feel like I'm being pandered to ineptly. This is made all the more clear by the commander precons, where the excuse of limited play can't factor in. I mean wtf is Galadriel, Elven-Queen?

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Wtf is Legolas Greenleaf?

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Wtf is Sauron, Lord of the Rings? Imo these look like cards designed either by someone who doesn't understand commander, or who doesn't understand magic. I don't think recent precons have had nearly such duds. I don't love Elenda and Azor but they've got a lot more going on than these things.

I proxy almost everything now a days, so this doesn't affect me much anymore. Giant corporation gonna giant corporation.

How are you proxying limited?

[Hermes_]

How are you proxying limited?

He did say ALMOST, the last time i did a pre-release was when we had a shop and i drafted for value. I'm not going to travel an hour or more just to do that.

[Mookie]

I'll call out that if you like Limited but dislike the value proposition, Cube is an option (and it's also generally proxy-friendly). It can be tricky to find enough people though.

...on that note, my own cube is loving all the historic / legend-matters cards from the set.

[onering]

If it's not all spoiled yet, there could be a card that fetches up Flame of Udun from the library to the battlefield and gives it haste. I could imagine something like

"Delved Too Deep" 2BR

Enchantment

Your opponents can't search their libraries.

0, flip a coin: If the coin comes up heads, Delved too Deep loses all abilities until end of turn. If it comes up tails, Delved too Deeps controller searches their library for Flame of Udun yada yada yada. Only an opponent may activate this ability, and only once each turn.

Oozes flavor, let's you keep swinging in with a big ol 7/7

[duducrash]

Cube is pretty sweet, I have a Khans of Tarkir cube and try to emalute that draft experience. Its quite fun, but if you oush morph you'll probably win. Thing is apparently there is plenty of room to grow, one day I plan to build a cube of my own design. Sleeves are weirdly expensive down here so thats a deterrent

Denethor, Ruling Steward - anything that is built in sac outlet + payoff is at least interesting. I do run Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim

Stone of Erech - hate + value always find a place to be played

Rangers of Ithilien at least you cant blink and do nasty stuff like AoT, but I have a friend that plays a Yarok, the Desecrated and ai just know it will male me make suffer

Goldberry, River-Daughter - you know what? Good for Tom. Counter manipulation is always something that can be interesting. She is pretty interestingly designed

Sméagol, Helpful Guide - ramping with opponents cards seems fun but milling my opponents seem like a decent downside. Could be ok in Karador

Breaking of the Fellowship heartbreaking moment 😭


Anyone know the draft archetypes?

[TheGildedGoose]

Glamdring 😍

Runechanter's Pike number two with the upshot of free spells, which are definitely fair and balanced. I love it.

Overall, I'm a little underwhelmed with the set. I'm pretty medium on Universes Beyond to begin with, and while there are a few interesting designs, I can't say there's much that appeals to me. Nothing against those that enjoy it, though.

[toctheyounger]

If it's not all spoiled yet, there could be a card that fetches up Flame of Udun from the library to the battlefield and gives it haste. I could imagine something like

"Delved Too Deep" 2BR

Enchantment

Your opponents can't search their libraries.

0, flip a coin: If the coin comes up heads, Delved too Deep loses all abilities until end of turn. If it comes up tails, Delved too Deeps controller searches their library for Flame of Udun yada yada yada. Only an opponent may activate this ability, and only once each turn.

Oozes flavor, let's you keep swinging in with a big ol 7/7

I want it to be called Drums in the Deep. Or we cannot get out. But that's super cool otherwise.

[materpillar]

I can get behind weird janky designs - case in point,

Unofficial Spoiler Discussion

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Cirdan the Shipwright gets a positive grade from me in my GBU review

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but Udun ain't it. By far the best way to use Udun is to just jam it as a 7/7 for 5 and hope your opponent doesn't play any legendary creatures. That's not interesting. And while I enjoy trying to pull off a difficult achievement - I had a whole deck around using Korlash, Heir to Blackblade's grandeur ability in commander - it has to have a worthwhile payoff at the end.

Bolded is where we disagree. I have an entire deck built around looping Shields of Velis Vel in mono-W just so I can turn Tivadar of Thorn into Ravenous Chupacabra. I can assure you, setting up a 3-4+ card combos to create Ravenous Chupacabra is not "having a worthwhile payoff"

The point isn't that The Balrog, Flame of Udûn+Be'lakor, the Dark Master+Grenzo, Dungeon Warden to lock everyone out of casting their commanders (extra points for Panharmonicon/Pandemonium for face damage) is worth doing. The point is that everyone knows it isn't worth doing and yet you're doing it anyway.

Also, how did you do that Korlash, Heir to Blackblade thing? Make a token of him and then use Oath of Ghouls or something? That sounds hilarious.

Which actually brings me to my easy fix for him: Just remove the words "The" and "Flame of Udun" and remove his legendary tag. Presto, he's just a generic Balrog, which he might as well be because nobody is going to CZ him anyway.

This is clearly the Balrog lost fighting Gandalf though? It feels like a pretty good top down design from a purely flavor perspective of that scene.

Between the deluge of legendaries and the particularly low quality of them in this set, I feel like I'm being pandered to ineptly. This is made all the more clear by the commander precons, where the excuse of limited play can't factor in. I mean wtf is Galadriel, Elven-Queen?

Unofficial Spoiler Discussion

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Wtf is Legolas Greenleaf?

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Wtf is Sauron, Lord of the Rings? Imo these look like cards designed either by someone who doesn't understand commander, or who doesn't understand magic. I don't think recent precons have had nearly such duds. I don't love Elenda and Azor but they've got a lot more going on than these things.

There's a bajillion legendary creatures in this set some of them are going to be boring? I know there's a bunch of limited chaff ones because legendary matters is a theme. I'm gonna be honest, I don't care enough to even read the specific ones you linked. If legendaries don't immediately spark my interest (Shelob, Child of Ungoliant) or go in one of my decks (Sauron, the Dark Lord) I don't devote brain space to them anymore.

I proxy almost everything now a days, so this doesn't affect me much anymore. Giant corporation gonna giant corporation.

How are you proxying limited?

I mostly don't play much limited anymore, despite it being awesome. My free time doesn't line up super well with normal draft times. If I'm really feeling it I'll do some arena drafts. I also have a cube.

[Dunharrow]

Did not expect a toxic deluge reprint!
also, asceticism and Swan Song were in need of reprints!
Reanimate and Door of Destinies are nice too!

[duducrash]

All commander decks seem sweet! The knights of Rohan one is specially cool. Elfs are super cool with great art.

I lowkey wish it was just boros instead of Jeskai

[Dunharrow]

All commander decks seem sweet! The knights of Rohan one is specially cool. Elfs are super cool with great art.

I lowkey wish it was just boros instead of Jeskai

Ya I don't see blue in Rohan's identity. Boros or Naya fit better.

[Serenade]

I have gotten a lot of mileage out of Lazotep Plating. It's certainly not the same, but I like the versatility of Orcish Medicine.

[Venedrex]

I gotta say, they knocked it out of the park with the commander deck reprints, not only in terms of value, but more so in terms of flavor.

Anguished Unmaking being the ring melting in Mount Doom. Fantastic
Mystic Confluence, being the the magical looking area of Lothlorien. Nice
Plea for Power with Boromir asking for help, I MEAN IT DOESN'T GET ANY BETTER THAN THAT FOLKS. Not to mention will of the council itself being brought back, and food. You love to see it.

[DirkGently]

Bolded is where we disagree. I have an entire deck built around looping Shields of Velis Vel in mono-W just so I can turn Tivadar of Thorn into Ravenous Chupacabra. I can assure you, setting up a 3-4+ card combos to create Ravenous Chupacabra is not "having a worthwhile payoff"

Couldn't you just use conqueror's galleon?

The point isn't that The Balrog, Flame of Udûn+Be'lakor, the Dark Master+Grenzo, Dungeon Warden to lock everyone out of casting their commanders (extra points for Panharmonicon/Pandemonium for face damage) is worth doing. The point is that everyone knows it isn't worth doing and yet you're doing it anyway.

Careful, you're getting close to a Creature Machine Gun. Don't you know that's the meanest thing you can do in this format? Pokken is gonna ban you.

Also, how did you do that Korlash, Heir to Blackblade thing? Make a token of him and then use Oath of Ghouls or something? That sounds hilarious.

Copy it with mirage mirror or similar, then use phyrexian reclamation (or similar, but really nothing could hold a candle to reclamation) to put all your swamps into play for 1 life each. Then untap and play exsanguinate or whatever. Decklist is in my sig I think.

This is clearly the Balrog lost fighting Gandalf though? It feels like a pretty good top down design from a purely flavor perspective of that scene.

Honestly I thought the flavor was good until I saw Durin's Bane, which makes a lot more sense. It's not Gandalf dying that makes the balrog fall, it's the balrog falling that makes gandalf fall. I guess the ideal version would have them both go to bottom of library instead of dying but for practical purposes it's kinda the same thing.

Given that, honestly it's kinda doubly lame that both versions of the character attempt to replicate the same piece of flavor mechanically. Of all the duplicates in the set, the balrogs have got to be the most redundant.

So yeah idk probably change it mechanically too. But I wouldn't mind having a generic balrog any more than I mind having generic orcs and then also named orcs.

There's a bajillion legendary creatures in this set some of them are going to be boring? I know there's a bunch of limited chaff ones because legendary matters is a theme. I'm gonna be honest, I don't care enough to even read the specific ones you linked. If legendaries don't immediately spark my interest (Shelob, Child of Ungoliant) or go in one of my decks (Sauron, the Dark Lord) I don't devote brain space to them anymore.

That's fine but it doesn't really detract from my criticism of the set design, if anything it emphasizes it.

I mostly don't play much limited anymore, despite it being awesome. My free time doesn't line up super well with normal draft times. If I'm really feeling it I'll do some arena drafts. I also have a cube.

I have cubes too but can never get enough interest =/ tbf I do really like drafting current sets, though.

[PrimevalCommander]

Now that it is official, I wanted to mention Flame of Anor again, since I think it is probably better than the well respected Prismari Command for any deck with a wizard commander, or even that play a decent wizard count like the cost reducers. The floor of the card is 2 cards for at instant speed, which is above rate with very relevant flexibility. Choosing two of these makes it very good for the mana cost. I know Prismari Command always chooses two, but the general modes are weaker except for the shatter mode. 5 damage is quite a bit on a spell like this compared to Prismari's 2 damage. Prismari replaces a mana with a treasure, but Flame of Anor has me much more excited to sleeve up than Prismari due to the relevant removal mode and getting +1 card instead of -1 card for the draw mode.

[Dunharrow]

@DirkGently on Balrog flavour
We have one other story in the Silmarillion of a Balrog being killed (by Glorfindel). Glorfindel died in that battle too.
It's a recurring thing with Balrogs. You have to sacrifice someone to take it down.
Never mind, just saw the other Balrog, seems way more on point. Oh well.

[duducrash]

Now that it is official, I wanted to mention Flame of Anor again,

I agree, the card is pretty sweet. I'm a bit confused how do I get the cool art ones, hope it isn't super rare.

It's actually a really cool under the radar set for spell slinger. I'll try 4 different cards for Veyran, Voice of Duality

-Flame of Anor we already mentioned, flexible and seems great. banger art
-Fiery Inscription - Banger card for veyran. I would be really excited for redudancy at creature, being an enchantment is a plus plus
-Borne Upon a Wind - I think its pretty neat. The floor is ok enough for me and the ceiling is amazing.
-Gandalf's Sanction - I'm iffy on this one, but I think I'll at least consider.


Now that I did this I think I'll continue

Karador, Ghost Chieftain

1 inclusion for sure is Boromir, Warden of the Tower , He hates and he protects. Gotta love him.
Grey Host Reinforcments - is a card I could maybe play? I'm not sure, I like hating on GYs

General Ferrous Rokiric - General was a gimmic deck that I only played cards I opened or traded for, but it was too fun and I ended up commiting to him. He gets several cards in the precon

Merry, Esquire of Rohan
Éowyn, Fearless Knight
Oath of Eorl
Forth Eorlingas!
Riders of Rohan
Taunt from the Rampart

If it has a boros mana cost and it makes tokens I'll probably play it. It's a silly fun deck. I love it

random cards I'll also pick up

Rosie Cotton of South Lane - Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves , its also a silly deck, I don't think much about it, but it creates a bunch of wolf tokens. P.S Can someone explain the art on the BL card? whats going on there
Galadhrim Ambush - The spider one rocks, if this one is 30% of it I'll be super happy also for Tolsimir Wolfblood
Shadow Summoning - Is this a Raffine, Scheming Seer card? it seems like it. I'm trying to put it back together but the manabase is weird, so I havent been playing. but 2 evasive bodies seem ok.
The One Ring - For Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage assuming it isn't like crazy expensive


Aditionally, the precons have amazing reprints. the best @TheGildedGoose art so far, a really cool Birds of Paradise . Tbh I could list like dozens of not relevant reprints that I this is my favorite version so far. Amazing

For new decks, I'm not sure. There are some really cool designs, but I'm in a place in my life where I think I have more deck projects going on that I should have. But I'll never say never, specially with so many cool designs, specially in fewer color combinations.

[NZB2323]

I don't understand the flavor of Relentless Rohirrim or Rohirrim Lancer at all. Why does the ring temp me when one of them dies or when of them enters the battlefield?

[Serenade]

Because human