Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[Mookie]

Invasion of Alara has double pseudo-cascade, and makes me contemplate shifting my meme cascade.dec from Averna, the Chaos Bloom to The First Sliver, although it doesn't really work with Tibalt's Trickery. Hmmm... Etali, Primal Conqueror and a few other recent cards have added a bit more consistency to the deck too. I don't know if it's quite into 'cast a single spell → flip entire deck onto the table' territory yet, but it's certainly gotten closer since I last ran the numbers. I may have to put together a new decklist.

As for other stuff...

• Invasion of Shandalar is.... interesting. It feels a bit clunkier than Invasion of Tolvada, but I suppose it could be good.
• Invasion of Arcavios looks sweet for my spellslinger decks as another way to tutor up key spells and copy them... if not for the fact that those decks have virtually no board presence to actually attack and flip it. Alas.
• Inga and Esika is a bit generic but fine. Creatures creatures mana draw cards simic simic?
• Knight-Errant of Eos is a more flexible version of Ranger of Eos / Ranger-Captain of Eos for go-wide decks. It can be hard to fit enough relevant 1-drops in a deck to justify their inclusion, but it shouldn't be that hard to hit 2 or 3-drops. Less consistent though, given that it only looks at the top 6 cards.
• Hidetsugu and Kairi is an alright way to cheat out Enter the Infinite or some other nonsense. Alternatively, Rite of Replication / other clone effects?
• Invasion of Segovia is adorable, and also the Kasla, the Broken Halo + Jeskai Ascendancy enabler I was predicting.
• Hoarding Broodlord is a bit expensive, but could be interesting as another convoke enabler. I'm not sure what decks both cast a bunch of spells from exile and go wide though. Hmmm...

[duducrash]

Ayara, Widow of the Realm is pretty cool tbh. If I sac it before end step does it go back to the yard? I'm intrigued

[Dunadain]

Ayara, Widow of the Realm is pretty cool tbh. If I sac it before end step does it go back to the yard? I'm intrigued

Yup! Lightning Skelemental away! Just need to stack the triggers right

[pokken]

@pokken defense seems low-priority since they can just be given to another player. But they do push decks using them towards having attackers.

My thinking here is that if people are going to give you battles, and you'd really rather they didn't get free second spells (Some of which are pretty impactful) you might be encouraged, in general, to have more board presence. Depends on how many battles they build really I guess, and how good they are.

which...conversely kind of encourages you to keep your blockers back to deny people resource if they give you a battle?

On the flipside, it's pretty interesting in that it's basically giving people more life. So if they get widely adopted, I expect some pretty major shifts in the combat texture of the game. There probably won't be critical mass of them right away though, ofc.

Another interesting texture thing is that board wipes that hit "all nonland permanents" get some pretty significant enhancement in functionality, but, also, wiping creatures is extra good because creatures interact with planeswalkers and battles.

Things that wipe enchantments+artifacts might eventually become way too narrow to play - unless you explicitly want to leave your battles, walkers and creatures alone.

[ISBPathfinder]

Hidetsugu and Kairi I was just looking at this card and I realized that if you stack a deck full of recursion effects and time warps its going to be really spooky. Add in Sensei's Top and just yikes. I did a Gonti, Lord of Luxury a few years ago built on heavy reanimation but I think this commander actually does it better by sticking to your own deck. That.... might be something there.

[pokken]

Hidetsugu and Kairi I was just looking at this card and I realized that if you stack a deck full of recursion effects and time warps its going to be really spooky. Add in Sensei's Top and just yikes. I did a Gonti, Lord of Luxury a few years ago built on heavy reanimation but I think this commander actually does it better by sticking to your own deck. That.... might be something there.

Yeah that is pretty strong. I kinda like how it synergizes with sweepers, but that's a sure sign I probably shouldn't do it =P "commander combos with Decree of Pain" wheee

[ISBPathfinder]

Hidetsugu and Kairi I was just looking at this card and I realized that if you stack a deck full of recursion effects and time warps its going to be really spooky. Add in Sensei's Top and just yikes. I did a Gonti, Lord of Luxury a few years ago built on heavy reanimation but I think this commander actually does it better by sticking to your own deck. That.... might be something there.

Yeah that is pretty strong. I kinda like how it synergizes with sweepers, but that's a sure sign I probably shouldn't do it =P "commander combos with Decree of Pain" wheee

Yea sac on an opponents turn to instant speed board wipe seems kinda strong lol. God I am gonna have to poke at that.

[duducrash]

Invasion of Mercadia seems pretty good, still pending to see how often/easily we flip battles

Invasion of regatha it's a bit weird to not hit face in burn but does sound okish

Invasion of kaldheimThats a bunch of cards... also like it.

Invasion of Karsus could also good, both sides are valuable.

TL;DR : I have no idea how good battles are and like the red ones

[Dunadain]

So I've put a lot more thought into Zurgo and Ojutai and I've decided I'm not interested.

I DO like the design, It's CA in the CZ, it dodges your own wraths, and in the late game with something like Sneak Attack or Aether Vial it becomes an epic value engine, that's very hard to interact with and allows you to cast board wipes with impunity.

However, it falls short in a couple ways:

1, They're not a great blocker, casting Wrath of God every turn is not a great plan, especially not in the early-mid game. Ideally, your commander should give you a decent blocker so that you don't have to wipe everytime there's more than 5 power on the board. Obviously, you can't expect your commander to hold off your opponents entire armies, but if your commander can give you some breathing room, you'll have a much better time. Zurgo and Ojutai becomes a lot worse if you are forced to leave it on blocking duty.

2. They're not a great wincon. 4 damage a turn is going to take 18 turns to kill the table. That's probably too slow for all but the hardest of locks. So you'll probably be looking to add things like Hero's Blade to help you get there.

3. They actually need to connect with an opponent to get the CA + bouce. Hopefully, in 3-playergame, in a deck full of Board wipes you should find an open opponent, especially because you have flying, but it's one more thing to juggle.

So yeah, if you want to go the board wipe tribal route, you're going to need to add other blockers that dodge your wipes, voltron elements, or other wincons to close the game, and probably a bit of evasion to get through, and of course the actual control elements. That's a lot to juggle.

Compare that to Shorikai, Genesis Engine and it's not really even close.

Obviously, that's only one route you could take this commander, but I don't think it's better than Shorikai, Genesis Engine, or even Nahiri, the Lithomancer as a board-wipe tribal commander.

I'm sure my play-group will be devastated to hear that I've decided not going to brew another control/board-wipe tribal deck, lmao.

[Hawk]

My own PSA (for me as much as anyone else) is that it's gonna be really hard to get a bead on how good battles are without playing with them. It has taken the greater MtG Hivemind about 10 years to get remotely competent at judging the playability of a planeswalker on reveal, and I anticipate Battles are similar. Most battles here seem like they're strong in limited (especially the uncommon ones) and probably "too cute" for most EDH decks, but it'll take a lot of testing to prove that. Heck, the other day I sorta poo-pooed Invasion of Zendikar as mostly worse and too much work compared to Migration Path or Skyshroud Claim but if I reframed my original pitch as "A 4/4 Vigilance Haste for four that Explosive Growths on EtB and taps for one of any color, but it gives an opponent three life" that card sounds like an instant format staple right? So, we go work to do to see how good battles are in practice.

That being said, holy moly does Invasion of Shandalar look absurd.

[NZB2323]

Sheoldred fits perfectly into my Neheb, the Worthy discard deck.

Vorinclex would be great in a Voltron build of Thalia and The Gitrog Monster.

[folding_music]

Tribute to the World Tree more like tribute to THIS tree: Colfenor, the Last Yew

[Mookie]

More stuff!

• Oracle of Tragedy is a card I'm tempted to throw in my cube. I don't think it's worth consideration in EDH, but in 40-card formats, I love the idea of shuffling a ton of gas back into the deck for a long game.
• See Double is interesting. Have we seen 'this can't be copied' on a card before? Either way, it provides a lot of flexibility.
• Deeproot Wayfinder is a cheap repeatable ramp engine. No evasion, but could be good in some decks. Erinis, Gloom Stalker is more consistent though.
• Surge of Salvation looks... very playable. I've been wanting more white stack interaction, and while this isn't quite Teferi's Protection, it is only one mana.
• Ozolith, Shattered Spire looks sweet for +1/+1 counter decks - only one extra mana over Hardened Scales, and it can be a source of counters itself.
• Pile On is a reasonable alternative to Lethal Scheme.
• Omen Hawker looks very niche, but very powerful in the right deck - there aren't many mana dorks that can tap for two mana, even if the uses for that mana are pretty limited.

[Igzex]

Invasion of Alara is the most Alara era card I've seen in a long time and I love it.

Surge of Salvation is pretty useful without even factoring in the bonus protection against its enemy colors.

and oh boy am I not looking forward to going up against Sheoldred.

[Moonlighter]

Anyone else looking forward to transforming Etali, Primal Conqueror for 3 with Seedpod Caretaker and Amoeboid Changeling?

Edit: oh not sure if this works

Edit2: it does not work got too excited

[duducrash]

Anyone else looking forward to transforming Etali, Primal Conqueror for 3 with Seedpod Caretaker and Amoeboid Changeling?

Edit: oh not sure if this works

Edit2: it does not work got too excited

I think Moonmist and another werewolf from SOI transform other stuff, you only need Arcane Adaptation effects? Im unsure

What happens if you turn a transform card facedown? Like manifest

[pokken]

See Double is interesting. Have we seen 'this can't be copied' on a card before? Either way, it provides a lot of flexibility.

It's nice to see them trying to close the Dualcaster Mage loophole I guess, but powerful card for sure

[DirkGently]

@pokken wouldnt need to be dualcaster, any way to copy it while it's on the stack would have resulted in infinite tokens. Definitely glad they headed that one off at the pass.

All the praetors seem ridiculous so far tbh.

[Cyberium]

All the praetors seem ridiculous so far tbh.

Don't jinx Urabrask. XD

[Hermes_]

[duducrash]

Zimone and Dina wowa. This is sweet.

Lands, draws, sacrifice

Itching to build this even though I want to play less colors overall. First legendary in a while that intrigues me

[Mookie]

I have somewhat mixed feelings re: the Praetors so far - they're pretty hard to evaluate.

Looking only at the front sides:

• Elesh Norn I'm pretty low on - Norn's Annex is a significantly weaker effect than Ghostly Prison, and I'd almost prefer Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker (who I do not consider to be playable). The solid 3/5 body helps, at least.
• Jin-Gitaxias // The Great Synthesis I like a lot - ward means Jin is more likely to stick around and provide incremental value.
• Sheoldred is reasonable. I'm not a big fan of Merciless Executioner or Nekrataal cards, but at least you get a nice body.
• Vorinclex is oversized, and reach is nice, but I'm not convinced he beats Ulvenwald Hydra or other green fatties.

Of these, I would happily play Jin-Gitaxias, and I might consider Sheoldred. I'd probably pass on the other two. However, that's not taking the flip sides into account.

• Elesh Norn is the cheapest to flip in terms of mana, but sacrificing three creatures is a hefty cost (even if you do get five back). I would be extremely concerned about her being removed in response to activation. The second chapter can kill your opponents, but it's also extremely telegraphed.
• Jin-Gitaxias once again benefits from ward to flip relatively safely, and he enables his flip condition by drawing more cards. You get an immediate draw 7. I don't see you ever hitting chapter 2 or 3 and not winning the game.
• Sheoldred is somewhat unlikely to flip without support in the form of some mill, but is great at stabilizing once you flip her, followed up by disruption and a win condition.
• Vorinclex is extremely expensive to flip - again, I would be concerned about being blown out by instant-speed removal. The first chapter is extremely inconsistent - it might be good, or you might hit two mana dorks. The second and third chapters are okay, but require a board presence.

Overall? Again, I like Jin-Gitaxias, and Sheoldred also looks solid. Elesh Norn and Vorinclex both look to be weak to removal, both on themselves or in the form of a board wipe.

...admittedly, all of the Praetors have a lot of text, so I could be evaluating them incorrectly, but this is how I currently feel about them. Proliferate is also a thing, so some of the later chapters may be coming down early. I also suspect they're all better as commanders than in the 99, since you can either lean into their flip requirements or build around their chapters more effectively.

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

Zimone and Dina wowa. This is sweet.

Lands, draws, sacrifice

Itching to build this even though I want to play less colors overall. First legendary in a while that intrigues me

Very interesting twist on the Simic usual playbook, by adding that first ability.

[NZB2323]

I have somewhat mixed feelings re: the Praetors so far - they're pretty hard to evaluate.

Looking only at the front sides:

• Elesh Norn I'm pretty low on - Norn's Annex is a significantly weaker effect than Ghostly Prison, and I'd almost prefer Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker (who I do not consider to be playable). The solid 3/5 body helps, at least.
• Jin-Gitaxias // The Great Synthesis I like a lot - ward means Jin is more likely to stick around and provide incremental value.
• Sheoldred is reasonable. I'm not a big fan of Merciless Executioner or Nekrataal cards, but at least you get a nice body.
• Vorinclex is oversized, and reach is nice, but I'm not convinced he beats Ulvenwald Hydra or other green fatties.

Of these, I would happily play Jin-Gitaxias, and I might consider Sheoldred. I'd probably pass on the other two. However, that's not taking the flip sides into account.

• Elesh Norn is the cheapest to flip in terms of mana, but sacrificing three creatures is a hefty cost (even if you do get five back). I would be extremely concerned about her being removed in response to activation. The second chapter can kill your opponents, but it's also extremely telegraphed.
• Jin-Gitaxias once again benefits from ward to flip relatively safely, and he enables his flip condition by drawing more cards. You get an immediate draw 7. I don't see you ever hitting chapter 2 or 3 and not winning the game.
• Sheoldred is somewhat unlikely to flip without support in the form of some mill, but is great at stabilizing once you flip her, followed up by disruption and a win condition.
• Vorinclex is extremely expensive to flip - again, I would be concerned about being blown out by instant-speed removal. The first chapter is extremely inconsistent - it might be good, or you might hit two mana dorks. The second and third chapters are okay, but require a board presence.

Overall? Again, I like Jin-Gitaxias, and Sheoldred also looks solid. Elesh Norn and Vorinclex both look to be weak to removal, both on themselves or in the form of a board wipe.

...admittedly, all of the Praetors have a lot of text, so I could be evaluating them incorrectly, but this is how I currently feel about them. Proliferate is also a thing, so some of the later chapters may be coming down early. I also suspect they're all better as commanders than in the 99, since you can either lean into their flip requirements or build around their chapters more effectively.

I don't think Sheoldred needs mill support to flip. Black can use discard, sacrifice, spot removal, or board wipes. Also 8 isn't that much, which is really 7 after her ETB effect.

[Mookie]

I don't think Sheoldred needs mill support to flip. Black can use discard, sacrifice, spot removal, or board wipes. Also 8 isn't that much, which is really 7 after her ETB effect.

I'm mostly thinking about trying to cast Sheoldred on T5, then flip the following turn. On T6, your opponents will have drawn 13 cards total by default, of which five are probably lands on the battlefield. That leaves eight other cards, and Sheoldred won't flip that turn unless all of them are in the graveyard. That seems... unlikely, particularly since your opponents may intentionally hold stuff back to prevent Sheoldred from flipping (or to prevent losing a creature to the sacrifice trigger). I recognize that many players are going to be dumping fetchlands / cantrips / etc. into their graveyard, but I wouldn't count on it.

That said, I don't think flipping Sheoldred will be an issue in the lategame, particularly after a board wipe or two. I guess it depends on exactly how fast your meta is - the longer games take, the easier she will be to flip.