Your thoughts on decklist and resource discussion?

[toctheyounger]

I think so too. @3drinks got it running the first time around, if they were keen again we could just revive the thread that didn't get off the ground. If not we could just ask in the main forum if anyone is keen to look after such a thread.

From memory the way it works is you submit links and every allotted time period a list is randomly shared at which point folks chime in as able. Deep dive discussion is recommended to be shared on the actual thread page where possible though, otherwise it defeats the purpose altogether.

Oh hey, I remember this. I think the problem with this when it tuckered out was the same four people providing the same advice and a lot of people not engaging unless they were getting the attention. Or users getting defensive over the same advice being dished out to cut their pet cards. In short, people just stopped participating because it got circular.

Perhaps we could refine it a little so that feedback and observations are more useful in context to the list? I think part of it is if you're submitting a list you do need to be prepared to take it with a grain of salt, but also, as Rowan says, if there's any specific restrictions those should be stated either upon submission or upon presentation in the lottery.

Let us know if you're keen to do it anyway, you did sort of champion it last time but given it didn't really get off the ground I could understand if you don't wanna.

[3drinks]

Yeah, I'm interested in getting this going here. I think it's an interesting way to spotlight our hard work in creating decks. I could come up with a template that reviewers would need to follow and institute some sort of rules for deck owners to abide by.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, I'm interested in getting this going here. I think it's an interesting way to spotlight our hard work in creating decks. I could come up with a template that reviewers would need to follow and institute some sort of rules for deck owners to abide by.

I'll be in for sure.

[Mookie]

....I was originally going to post something, but then I decided it wasn't up to my literary standards, so I erased it... and then I realized the irony of the situation, so here I am.

I generally view decklists as falling into two categories - 'looking for advice' and 'more-or-less finalized'. If a someone explicitly says they're looking for feedback, I'll sometimes post my thoughts re: potential inclusions or cards I'm not a fan of... but that generally requires me to have at least some familiarity with the type of deck in question. Given how many potential commanders and archetypes are out there, that's actually a somewhat rare event, which means I generally don't feel like I'm qualified to give feedback and thus end up not posting. More broadly, reading an entire decklist can be a lot of work, and even that won't give you all the context or knowledge of what the deck is doing or how to pilot it, so actually understanding a decklist can take more time than I'm generally willing to spend.

...on the flip side, if a decklist is presented without comment, I generally assume that it's relatively finalized and tuned for its owner's meta. As a result, the main reason I would post comments on a polished decklist would be if I were considering building a similar deck and wanted some additional insight into its builder's thinking. Unfortunately, I haven't built any new decks recently (and the deck ideas I have are generally pretty specific), so this situation doesn't come up that often either.

The third (and sort of lame) reason why I don't post is visibility - I don't check the subforum that often, so I usually don't see decklist threads unless someone links them from elsewhere.

Anyway, as a primer owner, I've sort of accepted the fact that 99% of thread views are from lurkers. That said, I do get bumps from people occasionally to know that they're being read, so I continue to update them.

...that said, I'd certainly be open to us trying to restart the decklist spotlight.

[3drinks]

I remember the other issue, and that was the very finite amount of lists and eventually the thread tuckers out as it doesn't have the fuel required to keep it going.

[MaritLage]

If I felt like people cared about my decklists I would likely put more energy into write-ups and even start a new Primer for some of my lists. It seemed like in the old days, Primers got a lot more discussion and interest especially from people actually looking to build the deck for themselves. As it stands, I just feel like it's not worth the effort.

Is it the urge to tell the story the deck tells ?

Personally , whether the OP asks for input has a , like , 150% effect on whether or not i respond . So , it·s good to hear from other people clawing their way through the echo chamber , and knowing yu·re not alone .

[RowanKeltizar]

I guess even though it may not be the case, taking the time to write up a primer or keep a decklist updated sometimes feels like teaching to an empty classroom. But I think those primers probably get a lot of outside traffic just from people browsing the net for decklists. Whenever I start a new deck I usually scour all decklists I can find for that commander to see if there are cards I've overlooking. So at the end of the day, my woes appear to be unfounded and I should just plug away at keeping my lists updated for my own purposes as well as all the nameless lurkers...

I remember the other issue, and that was the very finite amount of lists and eventually the thread tuckers out as it doesn't have the fuel required to keep it going.

It seems like this wouldn't be issue now. For myself I'm planning on coming up with at least another 3 or 4 starter budget decklists in the next few months as time allows all of which would more than benefit from this type of feedback. There are a ton of decks listed over in the decklists section, but I'm not sure how many people are still active or would want feedback on their lists in this manner.

[toctheyounger]

I remember the other issue, and that was the very finite amount of lists and eventually the thread tuckers out as it doesn't have the fuel required to keep it going.

We could just pick every list on the site, feasibly. Any that aren't submitted could just be used as a theory craft, talking over directions it could be taken and such. That way we're not surprise attacking someone else's list but we're not running out of fuel either. Any that are anonymous we just discuss in thread rather than on OP's list.

Ngl I kind of want it to happen, as little time as I have.

[Dragonlover]

I think we tried to kick off the decklist thread too early in the sites existence, cause it never had issues over at Sally. I suspect there just weren't enough people about.

I'd love to comment on more decklists, but I'll nth the problem of not being g able to comprehend a deck from a decklist. I also do not have an exhaustive knowledge of every card nowadays.

Speaking as someone else who is often talking to themselves when they update a deck, I'd just chalked it up to some combination of my writing style and the power level I play at. When I'm not on my phone I'm going to edit in to all my decklists that I am looking for feedback. I'd also like to get something going where I you comment on one of my decks, I'll comment on one of yours. I've tried in the past but I never vocalised it, and also I went through a spate of commenters not having links in their sigs.

Doesn't help that I'm a habitual lurker, as my post count/time here ratio will show. I'll have a burst of activity, such as this past week or so, then I'll just read for a few months.

Dragonlover

[Gentle Giant]

A lot of points have been raised that I can say for myself too: lack of time, lack of context on what the deckbuilder wants or has/hasn't thought about yet..

During my 10+ year streak as a lurker, I've hardly visited the decklist subforum: I only look at other people's decklists if they posit something so outlandish that I'm intrigued or when I want to build something that makes me so excited that I hope there are people who have had similar ideas: I built a creature tribal tribal deck around the same time as @materpillar posted theirs and only found it through Google. I was honestly surprised and slightly disappointed that the handful of Rograkh +Yoshimaru decks were just (imo) boringly focused on having a turbo-aggro plan instead of the flavourful boy with dog story.

But that brings me to my last point: why does someone share their list in the first place? Is it to tinker around with it for optimalisation purposes? That's an easier banner to rally behind than story-focused decks, for example. The topic-structure invites comments that update on the deck, also putting focus on updating (and thus tinkering) with the deck. You see/saw this with 60-card topics where people come together to report on testing/playing, discussing weaknesses, etc. All the caveats people have mentioned in this topic so far muddy the communicational waters, and thus require clarification and focus.

My intention of adding my decks to the forums here is to A) add new/hopefully interesting decks to the pool (I was very flattered by @RxPhantom's compliment on my deck!), B) discuss theme packages for my decks and hopefully bounce ideas around of what other packages might be cool (for my Averna deck for example), and C) concerning more janky mechanics-focused decks, the chance of people knowing a neat interaction or card that I overlooked (such as my comment about Mairsil and Rod of Absorption in the SCD topic about it).

If we take all this and look at what others have said, point A is a lot easier to achieve than point C: as point C requires the reader to be up to speed on the deck a lot more (and requires more effort for engaging with the list/topic). Point B, I feel, is better addressed through a MCD or Let's brew topic (as what I did with Garth, the Renaissance man, still working on that deck).

So, to conclude: for decks to be read, analysed, and commented on, the reader needs clarity on what to discuss to be able to cut through the non-specifity that is a regular ol' decklist. Additionally, the deck needs to spark interest, have familiarity, or it's creator needs to have some browny points with you for you to sink in time and effort to discuss things. If we were to add a weekly deck, I agree with the other posters that clarity and focus is necessary for people to engage with it.

[TheGildedGoose]

Laziness mostly.

The only honest answer in the whole thread.

I'm trying to comment more on threads I find interesting or that I have something meaningful to say. To be honest I don't even check most of the decklist threads that get posted because, frankly, I'm selfish and lazy and don't feel like peeking at every decklist unless it piques my interest.

As for general discussions, I'm all over them. I'm as opinionated as you can get and often offer mine unsolicited.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Laziness mostly.

The only honest answer in the whole thread.

You calling all of us liars? Them's fighting words and it would be a damn shame if someone got plucked, disemboweled, stuffed with mushrooms, basted, roasted, and then served with a tasteful garnish and giblet gravy...

I'm trying to comment more on threads I find interesting or that I have something meaningful to say. To be honest I don't even check most of the decklist threads that get posted because, frankly, I'm selfish and lazy and don't feel like peeking at every decklist unless it piques my interest.

As for general discussions, I'm all over them. I'm as opinionated as you can get and often offer mine unsolicited.

I too prefer the general discussions. There's less pressure to be insightful when we're dealing with concepts in abstract. It also requires less of a pedigree to meaningfully contribute, as even a newbie mook can at least represent their own experiences honestly. Talking about a given deck without any play experience/personal vested interest feels very presumptuous and false imho.

[ISBPathfinder]

For me its just a question of what commanders are interesting to me. I bounce all over the place and build a bunch of commanders but even then I probably only build something like 2-3% of commanders and I usually avoid the over powered obvious build commanders that tend to be popular. I still drop in and talk about some commanders I have done in the past that I no longer maintain but I also avoid a bunch just because they don't interest me that much. I do try to stop by and post for threads where it seems like the OP needs help deckbuilding but I don't find those too often (but I also don't necessarily look for them).

I don't hate the idea of a thread that bounces from decklist to decklist to make advice but I also agree that it seems like an idea that is hard to get a lot of in depth advice that isn't repeating the same thing of lower the curve, add more draw and ramp advice repeatedly. Its always more fun when it focuses on your own lists and getting participation to continue long term can be hard for those type of things. In some ways I also think that that type of topic also does better on a discord sort of setup because its fast flash in the pan kind of discussions rather than a long term forum based.

Personally I love having discussions on decks but I like having discussions on decks that are interesting to me. I often find the decks that build themselves or are over the top powerful and you can't build it wrong like Prossh, Skyraider of Kher to be very boring even though those sort of commanders get a lot more attention and play. For me I like commanders that take a lot of intentional deckbuilding to optimize. I really prefer concepts that are super different and require you to play with cards that literally nobody plays in commander because without that niche commander you have picked out they are unplayable. This all said, I also gravitate towards commanders I am trying to build or have built in the past when it comes to visiting decklists and or commenting on them.

I also have a lot of trouble being helpful in budget discussions. I don't know what it is but I can make suggestions to optimize things but when it comes to budget concepts I am all thumbs and I mostly don't try to help lol.

[BaronCappuccino]

If we're going to give the rotating deck of the moment a try again, it'd probably be helpful for each deck author to be proactive and tell us what the point is. This is also the case for regular forum deck list postings as well. I'm guilty as anyone. I post in a forum ostensibly intended for deck advice and nearly all my card choices are off limits. I wouldn't waste my time with me either. I'm not the only one. Commander has too many deck construction goals to really lend itself to deck advice - not without extensive laying of ground rules. Maybe a sticky that nobody will read, or some sort of primer-like submission format for commander decks with clearly stated goals would help.

[3drinks]

I think it's more conducive to people's time and effort to host something of a community build series, than a deck advice series. There's some overlap but you don't risk picking a deck by a forum ghost or someone totally averse to any kind of suggestions whatsoever. And unlike posted lists, there truly is no ceiling to how far this can go.

[pokken]

I'd only allow submissions for feedback vs picking randomly. Leave it up for a month.

[TheGildedGoose]

I'd only allow submissions for feedback vs picking randomly. Leave it up for a month.

Agreed on submissions only as opposed to a randomized selection.

Disagreed on a month. A week should be sufficient, as I would think discussion would peter out after a few days unless something particularly spicy or controversial got posted.

I would love this thread to come back as I'm not more involved on the forum, so my expert opinion could be expressed on the regular.

[pokken]

I think a week is enough to get the forum regulars but not to give people time to process. Also you will likely run out of quality submissions at 52/ year is my guess. Maybe two weeks . Whatever.

[Venedrex]

Alright you twisted my arm Decklist for my latest project is up. Its pretty odd. Strange, so is the number of words in this post.

[Rumpy5897]

I'm a mix of a bunch of the points raised in thread. The commanders I feel competent to talk about are mostly the ones I play. At the same time, I'm rather picky with my legends, so my competence pool is ultimately quite narrow. As such, I'm largely constrained to my own threads. The non-me deck I'm most active in is pokken's Ephara as there are some similarities to Daxos in terms of how it uses white. As such, I feel I can opine in a semi-informed manner

At the same time, I don't even mind the talking-to-myself aspect too much. Yeah, it's nicer to have people to bounce ideas off of, but even just being able to go back some time from now and check what was on my mind at the time I made some swaps may be useful. I recently did some housecleaning in my Patron, and it was quite informative to be able to go back to some earlier rambles and see that apparently I started using Ant Queen more as a combo piece than anything. Not every deck is always played enough to be in touch with all the nuances, and this is a sensible way to have old me hold current me's hand as he considers swaps.

That said, I actually really appreciate when someone wanders into the thread and leaves some feedback, even if I ultimately dismiss the card options being proposed. Sometimes I make absolutely idiotic calls, like not putting Anointed Procession in Daxos, and it took someone else chiming in to snap me out of it. Daxos has benefited the most from consultations, as another poster's remark about Top was the start of the deck entering a whole new phase of its existence.

I think that something similar has come up in discussion before, which led to the creation of the help wanted tag. I've stuck this on all my new lists in their early days, and have gotten some insightful feedback that helped sculpt them. That said, it feels reserved for the early day brews, which are also easier to comment on in general. Still, we should probably use this tag more aggressively as a community, especially on those early days lists.

[Ertai Planeswalker]

There's two main factors here for me mostly. The first is that i scaled back my time investment in magic. I used to know most cards from the top of my head, but with the rate sets are coming out now I just skim for possible new commanders that interest me and research those. Keeping up with the game as a whole has become a too big cognitive load so for me least 50% of the new decklists posted I have no idea what it's about even if the commander's name is in the thread title.

Second, I know a lot of people spend a lot of time making fancy primers and decklists with colored borders and extensive write ups etc., but all i want is a decklist, a short explanation for what it wants to do and some highlights in the card choices that are specific to the deck. Having to read 2 pages worth of text of comparisons of this commander against all others in it's color identity that remotely look like it are really off-putting to me. No matter how fancy it looks, a wall of text is a wall of text. A good deck thread is like a resume should be: conscise, to point, only the important stuff and if it doesn't fit on one page you need to take something out.

[3drinks]

Second, I know a lot of people spend a lot of time making fancy primers and decklists with colored borders and extensive write ups etc., but all i want is a decklist, a short explanation for what it wants to do and some highlights in the card choices that are specific to the deck. Having to read 2 pages worth of text of comparisons of this commander against all others in it's color identity that remotely look like it are really off-putting to me. No matter how fancy it looks, a wall of text is a wall of text. A good deck thread is like a resume should be: conscise, to point, only the important stuff and if it doesn't fit on one page you need to take something out.

This!! The only reason I don't have some sort of "official" tag on my Kaalia primer like I did on @mtgsally is because I was told my thread isn't "pretty enough". Like who cares, information is information, and learning html5 doesn't make a deck do anything different. Smh it became a dang clout chase session and surely has contributed some to why I'm not as vigilant as I once was.

Anyone that knows me, knows I've spent the past decade making Kaalia my life's work anyway, and some fancy label or computer science degree isn't gonna change that.

[DirkGently]

@Ertai Planeswalker @3drinks My Phelddagrif primer tag took me ages to get. Truly a shockingly high barrier to entry considering the alternative is no primer existing at all. It's not like there was a bunch of competition for political Phelddagrif primers that I had to beat out.

And I have a comp sci degree, didn't make it less of a pain in the butt. Although web development was never my strong suit.

[pokken]

They have consistently lowered the bar for primer status year after year.

Personally I like the bar to be high. Have you seen the crap people peddle as primers on tapped out and stuff? It's a joke. Ours are still night and day better than almost anywhere else on the web

The high quality of primers is one of a huge draws to the site. I do agree that bbcode is an annoying experience even after all the amazing work feyd has done to make it easier. I wish we could have a real-time previewing editor that saves revisions and commits git style personally but git would be a massive lift I'm sure lol

All that said they have a very functional template now and if you just use that and proofread it looks like primers are going pretty fast.

[DirkGently]

Well, a big problem I have with the process is that it's form >>>> function. Actually having good information is way lower of a priority, if there's any editorial process at all. Much like all other commander content on the internet.

Kinda goes back to the lack of any established authority. If you say "X card is good in standard", but the data crunches from Arena prove you're wrong, then everyone can just say you're wrong. If you say "Ogre Arsonist is the most underplayed card in commander" then the only people calling you out are we tiny handful of overinvested curmudgeons.