Vedalken Orrery - trap or treasure?

[toctheyounger]

I've been thinking about this card a bit lately. Not sure why specifically, but part of it is that its quite pricey and I generally thinks its pretty cuttable, if not entirely a trap. It means a decent tempo loss for no immediate effect playing it on curve and there's other lower impact cards that have similar effects for better efficiency:

Winding Canyons
Emergence Zone
Shimmer Myr
Yeva, Nature's Herald

I'm sure there's others too, but all of these are literally a fraction of the cost of orrery. Even then, theyre also all for niche use too.

What do you guys think? Do you use Orrery? Is it worth the price and does it live up to the hype? Or is this another Josh Lee Kwai price spike?

[pokken]

It can be really good but it's really best where it enables a combo that wouldn't otherwise work (there are a few IIRC). It's hard to strike that balance of a deck that wants to cast at instant speed but isn't mostly instants?

The place where it's best in my experience is in Seedborn Muse.dec.

[plushpenguin]

You need to pair it with something like the aforementioned seedborn muse to make it nuts. By itself I feel like you're probably not getting the most out of it.

[Treamayne]

I would say that for most of the decks that run it, it is either a trap or "win more" inclusion. However, the deck themes that *need* this effect (such as Werewolf Tribal that need to consistently cast one and only one spell per turn) really have no substitute. As per your examples, most (all?) other options are either tap abilities (once per cycle not-on-your-turn) or narrow enough that it has to match the theme or is not really a viable substitute.

Agree with @pokken on the best abuse, so it really comes down to if this is the theme (combo) or enables a theme. If neither, then it is probably a trap or pet-card inclusion.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah I agree with these assessments. I've dropped it jna few lists recently and its easily been the first cut, I just didn't ever want to cast it.

The latest deck it got dropped from was Emry, Lurker of the Loch untap. Unwinding Clock is in the list and I still didn't want it.

I think part of that is me thinking that monopolizing gameplay time is very vibe-dampening too. I'm much more likely to scoop in a game where someone else has response at every step of every turn. Its what made me abandon Kalamax, the Stormsire as a brew.

[Treamayne]

The latest deck it got dropped from was Emry, Lurker of the Loch untap. Unwinding Clock is in the list and I still didn't want it.

Depending on how artifact/permanent heavy your build is, I've replaced this with Bottled Cloister in two of my artifact decks and been happier. And the game where the Golem deck got Cloister and Ghirapur Orrery at the same time had the other players scrambling for removal...

[Toshi]

Aside from utter broken things, Vedalken Orrery usually shines in decks that would lack the timing flexibility otherwise. Say creature ETB abuse that isn't Grenzo, Dungeon Warden or Yeva, Nature's Herald. But would i be willing to pay 20€/$30 for that? I don't think so.

I remember ordering a playset of them (and Leyline of Anticipation) for less than 5€ a piece years back. It was the age of battlecruiser EDH and being able to flash Terastodon was what we all dreamed of.
But those days are over. Most of my decks curve out around CMC 6 - Zada, Hedron Grinder at 4 - so a 4 drop artifact that isn't doing anything by itself isn't tempting too much.

As for the JLK price spike thing: Lots of people don't build decks the way most on this plattform do. Some just slam cards into a box, others just net deck what they can find. With the CZ having such a huge following it is no wonder players are picking up benchmark cards from said meta. I recall Shadowborn Apostles spiking considerably when an episode of CZ with an Athreos, God of Passage Apostle deck aired.

[toctheyounger]

Aside from utter broken things, Vedalken Orrery usually shines in decks that would lack the timing flexibility otherwise. Say creature ETB abuse that isn't Grenzo, Dungeon Warden or Yeva, Nature's Herald. But would i be willing to pay 20€/$30 for that? I don't think so.

I remember ordering a playset of them (and Leyline of Anticipation) for less than 5€ a piece years back. It was the age of battlecruiser EDH and being able to flash Terastodon was what we all dreamed of.
But those days are over. Most of my decks curve out around CMC 6 - Zada, Hedron Grinder at 4 - so a 4 drop artifact that isn't doing anything by itself isn't tempting too much.

As for the JLK price spike thing: Lots of people don't build decks the way most on this plattform do. Some just slam cards into a box, others just net deck what they can find. With the CZ having such a huge following it is no wonder players are picking up benchmark cards from said meta. I recall Shadowborn Apostles spiking considerably when an episode of CZ with an Athreos, God of Passage Apostle deck aired.

Being absolutely honest I was being more than a little facetious about the JLK thing. I'm aware that CZ has a following and thats great for them but I don't think of anyone on that show as the pinnacle of edh play or brewing. I think a lot of the allure for fans wanting to emulate them comes from the very polished editing and production and just seeing some of the most hyped cards in the format get played. Thwres far better creators from a brewing and threat assessment standpoint. Joe Cherries and Beezy are my go to for that.

At any rate I agree. My take is the initial tempo loss means losing a turn to something that does nothing on its own, and if you're playing .you've closed to tapped out, so what are you gonna do with it that footrest turn anyway? It's one of those cards thats like 'if I untap with this, oh boy you're gonna get it', but if your opponents are worth their salt they won't let you. And building around seedborn and this is well and good, and strong, but thats a lot of mana poured into two very egregiously well known cards. Expecting that engine to last seems futile.

I just don't think it cuts it anymore personally. Anything you reasonably want to do on an opponents turn is already instant speed anyway, to my mind. The effect is strong, its just not the same as a t1 leyline and paying nothing at all for it.

[Mookie]

Vedalken Orrery isn't a bad card, but yeah, it's definitely overpriced - contrast with Leyline of Anticipation. It is in need of a reprint, and being colorless means it can go in more decks, but.... not a card I would want to invest in. Flash is certainly a powerful ability, especially if you have something like Seedborn Muse or Rashmi, Eternities Crafter to abuse it. However, that needs to be balanced against the fact that it is a four mana spell with no meaningful board impact, which is a pretty steep cost.

Personally, I'm a bigger fan of Alchemist's Refuge.

[plushpenguin]

As an opponent, I don't even need to answer this thing to get ahead. All I need to do is use the time you spent playing this 4 drop to try and overtake you completely.

[materpillar]

I think the more battlecruiser the meta you're playing is the stronger this card becomes. Specifically, I have a friend who runs this in Nin, the Pain Artist alongside Leyline of Anticipation. They generate a lot of card advantage for him by allowing him to not commit to the board and fly under people's radar more. Then, more removal gets burned on stuff he doesn't control because it is sitting safely in his hand until the last moment. I think this card is still fairly strong around pre-con level of decks.

[DirkGently]

I have a really hard time building decks that would ever want this. The effect is strong, but if my plan is significantly improved by operating at instant-speed, I'm not going to rely on getting this one janky card out to do it. I'm either going to have my commander give flash (i.e. Yeva, Nature's Herald, Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage) or I'm just going to play mostly instant-speed cards, either of which kinda makes vedalken orrery worthless. Despite owning one since the bronze age, I don't think I've ever played it.

To me, it embodies a goodstuff card. It's a fine effect, but it screams "I don't understand how to build with a plan in mind!"

[PrimevalCommander]

I have one, and usually get a little jealous when I see it under someone else's control, but I don't play it anywhere right now, even after seeing it several times on Command Zone and elsewhere. I think it is a really powerful effect at a fair price, but with many of my decks wanting to be synergistic, I don't find myself having space for this. In creature decks, giving all your creatures flash is a HUGE boost. It gives all your creatures effective Haste, only removable by Instant speed targeted removal before first attack. Makes blocking a huge advantage for you as you can flash in a blocker that the opponent did not anticipate. Plus all your ETB effects now trigger instant speed, which is one of the biggest drawbacks of ETB creatures. There is a lot to like with this card, I just don't have a deck that needs it right now.

Depending on your meta, the tempo loss mentioned in this thread can be exaggerated. I play in mostly 75% meta and slapping down a 4 drop artifact as a set up card on turn for will never loose you the game on it's own. Obviously not a super high power meta card and if you are in an environment where casting Vedalken Orrery will loose you the game on tempo alone, you are playing in a meta that far eclipses, in speed, any channel where I've seen this card cast.

I had Leyline of Anticipation in Kalamax for a short while and it did really well, but it got cut as I try new cards and look for the sweet spot in card types. It will remain in the maybe-board for the time being if there are any low performing cards. Casting Blasphemous Act for at instant speed before a Krenko, Mob Boss alpha strike was the highlight of the night. Also giving Kalamax and other attacking creatures pseudo-haste and dodging some sorcery removal makes it a great card in there. It came out for Wilderness Reclamation which arguably does something similar for my game play but helps me get really ahead on mana.

[ISBPathfinder]

It draws a ton of attention and it doesn't really DO anything on its own. If its going to be answered quickly then its not worth playing but if you can get it to stick its crazy insane mode. It does play better towards a combo or combo like type of playstyle but my issue is that I rarely see it live long enough to do anything. I ended up cutting it from almost all decks because if it doesn't live for a few turns it often doesn't end up being worth playing.

[Jemolk]

It's quite a solid card just on the basis that there are a bunch of things that are good enough to do at sorcery speed and usually only available as such, but utterly insane at instant speed, provided your meta is slow enough to allow for casting a 4-mana spell that does nothing on its own. Even so, however, I don't use any of my multiple copies at this point. It just ends up getting cut for more synergistic cards, and the decks that care to a notable degree about the effect are generally blue anyway with no notable artifact synergies, where Leyline of Anticipation is just better for the possibility of having it turn 0. I do think this is a case of Josh Lee Kwai not recognizing that this is simply a pet card of his and hyping it up far beyond its actual value.

[Outcryqq]

It's only worthwhile in decks that need to play at instant speed. I have two decks where it's very helpful - Vial Smasher the Fierce, which allows me to get his triggers on everyone's turns, and Ayula, Queen Among Bears, which allows me to trigger her fight/pump at instant speed, which is huge. Like others said - if you're playing it without a significant interaction, it's not worth it.

[Toshi]

I have two decks where it's very helpful - Vial Smasher the Fierce, which allows me to get her his triggers on everyone's turns

Yup, cards that only trigger on every other turn do profit a lot from it.
But even then, Instants are just the easier approach. If you were to rely on Vedalken Orrery you'd have to tutor/draw it first, but if you're building not to be reliant on it, why include it nonetheless? Outside of permanent based ETB decks i just dont see it.

[Igzex]

I always seen it as a card that looks better on things like game knights than it actually is. In reality either I tap out and basically play it for no reason when it bites the dust before my next turn, or to assure I get some value out of it I realize I held myself back long enough to the point where I managed to achieve the opposite of value.

[toctheyounger]

I always seen it as a card that looks better on things like game knights than it actually is. In reality either I tap out and basically play it for no reason when it bites the dust before my next turn, or to assure I get some value out of it I realize I held myself back long enough to the point where I managed to achieve the opposite of value.

Very well said. These are my feelings put more succinctly than I could manage.

[ilovesaprolings]

It's a little good when cast on turn 4 and terrible as a late game draw. I'll pass.

[NZB2323]

I bought one for my Tymna the Weaver/Ravos, Soultender deck but ended up cutting it, as the deck would usually have a bunch of cards in hand and not enough mana so I cut it and lowered my curve. In theory the deck could use creatures with flash like Fiend Hunter, Dawnbringer Cleric, or Orzhov Pontiff, but it never worked that way for me.

I do run Vivien, Champion of the Wilds in my Captain Sisay deck along with Seedborn Muse, and that has worked out well for me.