Classy Sultai Combo Win Conditions

[TheGildedGoose]

Now, as has been noted, I'm not too fond of combos. That said, I'm building a "serious casual" blue-based control deck with ol' Tasigur, the Golden Fang (or maybe Thrasios, Triton Hero and Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools since colorless infinite mana is easier to generate than colored mana, but recursion has more utility when comboing off) and need some way to quickly and conclusively end the game. Since Tasigur is an infinite mana outlet to effectively draw your deck, why not generate infinite mana and win with whatever when it's academic? However, I'm not going to Consult/Pact Oracle, I'm bored with IsoRev, and Palinchron DEN can get outta here. What am I to do?

The only one I have so far is Seasons Past + Rude Awakening/Turnabout + a tutor for infinite mana into either Nephalia Drownyard or Beast Within + Reality Shift mill. Requiring that many lands and thus many, many turns to set up makes me think it's a fairly acceptable win condition. A secondary infinite mana combo, preferably involving Awakening or Turnabout since those are already in the deck and have little to no use outside of combining out, would be nice.

Hmm, is there a good Doomsday pile I can assemble with Awakening or Turnabout plus a bunch of lands?

Turnabout/Awakening
Land
Land
Beast Within
Reality Shift

That requires... what, 4UU(U/G)(U/G)BBB or 6(U/G)(U/G)GBBB from lands to get started with Tasigur in play? And then you have enough to go infinite from there. I think that's fair.

Or, with Drownyard in play,

Turnabout/Awakening
Land
Disallow/Voidslime
Land
Land

The Stifles are there for anti-mill triggered abilities. This also seems fair.

Assuming you're playing with other Adult Person decks, these seem like compact and decent win conditions. Would you complain if you lost to any of these methods?

[pokken]

I'm not a huge fan of wincons that require spell interaction to stop, period, but that's just my peculiarity

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I'm with @pokken generally, but if you're deadset on a combo wincon, be efficient about it. Infinite mana into decklooping nonsense is way too many extras steps onto what should be 1+2=victory. I can't revoke anyone's right to combo, but I do resent it when their deliberate convolution wastes the span of my mortal coil. Just play Thoracle and own it.

[TheGildedGoose]

I'm not a huge fan of wincons that require spell interaction to stop, period, but that's just my peculiarity

I'm with @pokken generally, but if you're deadset on a combo wincon, be efficient about it. Infinite mana into decklooping nonsense is way too many extras steps onto what should be 1+2=victory. I can't revoke anyone's right to combo, but I do resent it when their deliberate convolution wastes the span of my mortal coil. Just play Thoracle and own it.

If I don't have spell interaction myself I'm soft to instant speed graveyard hate, and with DDay I'm soft to instant speed removal as well. Did I mention MLD? Can't blame me for exploiting the social contract..

Don't get me wrong, in purely casual games, I am adamantly anti-fast combo. If a game ends before turn 5 I'm generally pretty annoyed, but this is a try hard casual deck. Make no mistake, this is a more merciful version of Dirk's Phelddagrif deck, which I have heard described as "spellslinger stax." Rather than draw the game out and beat someone to death with a hippo, I just end it. It's torture versus putting the table out of its misery, Old Yeller style.

I consider myself a considerate control player. I don't want to rush out my combo and finish early, I want to take my time and really go at it with the table until in a single, explosive moment, it ends, and we're all satisfied. With any luck, we'll shuffle up one more time.

I like the fact that it's land-based. It's pretty difficult to get a ton of lands into play quickly and early on, which limits the speed of the combo until the late game when it's time for the game to end anyway.

EDIT: Here is the decklist I'm currently working on.

[Treamayne]

Assuming you're playing with other Adult Person decks, these seem like compact and decent win conditions. Would you complain if you lost to any of these methods?

I would be upset to see any of these win conditions in any game with "casual" in the table description.

The only one I have so far is Seasons Past + Rude Awakening/Turnabout + a tutor for infinite mana into

Hmm, is there a good Doomsday pile I can assemble with Awakening or Turnabout plus a bunch of lands?

You have left the realm of casual for most people once you add Doomsday, Turnabout, or infinite anything. Of course, if you have a playgroup and they don't care - that's another story; but since you asked I guessed you meant games with randoms.

Now, as has been noted, I'm not too fond of combos. That said, I'm building a "serious casual" blue-based control deck with ol' Tasigur, the Golden Fang (or maybe Thrasios, Triton Hero and Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools since colorless infinite mana is easier to generate than colored mana, but recursion has more utility when comboing off) and need some way to quickly and conclusively end the game. Since Tasigur is an infinite mana outlet to effectively draw your deck, why not generate infinite mana and win with whatever when it's academic? However, I'm not going to Consult/Pact Oracle, I'm bored with IsoRev, and Palinchron DEN can get outta here. What am I to do?

Since you don't control what is returned to hand with Tasigur's activated ability, I would suggest Haakon with ETB, dies, cast or other triggers (not with Haakon himself, but any knight you can cast and recast since you said you were after inf mana).

[DirkGently]

The best combos:

1) win immediately with minimal steps
2) are disruptable (i.e. require permanents and don't lock out interaction with Teferi etc - counterspells are fine)
3) require 3+ cards, the more the merrier, the more expensive the merrier.

So idk, off the top of my head fifth dawn station combo is rad af. Summoning Station Blasting Station Grinding Station Salvaging Station. I would never be upset to lose to that, and I can't imagine many who would be.

[TheGildedGoose]

I would be upset to see any of these win conditions in any game with "casual" in the table description.

You have left the realm of casual for most people once you add Doomsday, Turnabout, or infinite anything. Of course, if you have a playgroup and they don't care - that's another story; but since you asked I guessed you meant games with randoms.

Generally speaking I would agree, but I like to think EDH is on a spectrum of power on multiple axes and that there has to be something between casual and competitive. The delineation isn't - and shouldn't be - perfectly clear.

Would I play this in a pod with casual randoms? No. That would likely be pubstomping and unfun for everyone involved. Would I play this with others in a tryhard casual slash sub-cEDH environment? That would be this deck's natural habitat. To be frank, I don't think any blue-based control deck built half competently is going to be truly casual, and playing them with casuals or inexperienced players wouldn't be very interesting or fun.

As for combo in casual in general, well, I would say that's for each pod to decide. I'm completely okay with a game ending on turn 10+ from some silly combo, but not okay with a game ending on turn 3 from a competitive one. Is a Doomsday on turn 15 more acceptable than one on turn 4?

[Mookie]

If all you care about is generating infinite mana, I'll call out Maze of Ith + Krosan Restorer / Ley Weaver as one of the least mana-intensive ways to do so. It is soft to creature removal though. After you have infinite mana, Tasigur + Reality Shift / Beast Within is probably the simplest win condition, with bonus points for not being dead cards outside comboing (unlike Thassa's Oracle).

Shigeki, Jukai Visionary + Regrowth is an alternative to using Seasons Past + tutor for Turnabout recursion. It doesn't reduce the number of lands necessary though. I'll note that Early Harvest can be a cheaper option, but it requires running a basic-heavy manabase and thus isn't always worth it. You could also use a mana doubler (or Bubbling Muck + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth) to reduce the number of lands necessary.

As a general rule, I wouldn't run this stuff at a random or casual table (especially not Doomsday), but if you know your meta and think this is an appropriate power level for it, then go for it. I don't think combo is entirely off-limits at any power level, even the most casual - there are plenty of janky low-power / inconsistent / fragile combos out there. Station combo is pretty casual, for example.

[Treamayne]

Generally speaking I would agree, but I like to think EDH is on a spectrum of power on multiple axes and that there has to be something between casual and competitive. The delineation isn't - and shouldn't be - perfectly clear.

Exactly. I think we need at least three more words (that are not <adjective> Casual) between Casual and cEDH. Competitive could be the obvious step before cEDH (a competitive deck that is not as tuned as true cEDH). What those other two descriptors might be, I'm not sure; but it's all moot because until the RC or other content creators start using possible terms they will never filter into the "consensual reality" of MtG jargon (which has already warped accepted terms through misuse, like tribal theoretically no longer meaning "based on creature type" and "on legs/on-a-stick" being used interchangeably).

"Casual" already has too much baggage to have any part of those theoretical descriptors to ever have widespread adoption.

Is a Doomsday on turn 15 more acceptable than one on turn 4?

Personally? No, I don't think any version of Doomsday is acceptable in any version of "XX Casual;" if only because while you might play it on turn 15 one game, it could go off much earlier in another game with the right draw/plan/execution.

I also recognize that I am old, stodgy, and far too set in my ways.

[TheGildedGoose]

If all you care about is generating infinite mana, I'll call out Maze of Ith + Krosan Restorer / Ley Weaver as one of the least mana-intensive ways to do so. It is soft to creature removal though. After you have infinite mana, Tasigur + Reality Shift / Beast Within is probably the simplest win condition, with bonus points for not being dead cards outside comboing (unlike Thassa's Oracle).

Blanking creature removal is a big, big appeal to me with control decks. I'm not particularly inclined to trying to do this with as little mana as possible, since that ultimately leads to optimizing for speed. Rather, I'm optimizing for inevitability, compactness, and narrow interactivity. Shift Within is definitely one of my favorite combos with infinite mana and recursion.

Shigeki, Jukai Visionary + Regrowth is an alternative to using Seasons Past + tutor for Turnabout recursion. It doesn't reduce the number of lands necessary though. I'll note that Early Harvest can be a cheaper option, but it requires running a basic-heavy manabase and thus isn't always worth it. You could also use a mana doubler (or Bubbling Muck + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth) to reduce the number of lands necessary.

Oh, now this? This I like. Shigeki is right up my alley in terms of Seasons Past redundancy, individually playability, and niche alternative. Easy include over Doomsday.

As a general rule, I wouldn't run this stuff at a random or casual table (especially not Doomsday), but if you know your meta and think this is an appropriate power level for it, then go for it. I don't think combo is entirely off-limits at any power level, even the most casual - there are plenty of janky low-power / inconsistent / fragile combos out there. Station combo is pretty casual, for example.

100%. I'm a gentlegoose, not a barbarian.

[toctheyounger]

If you landed on Tas there's some cool stuff you can do with Eldritch Evolution and Neoform to cheat game winners into play like Hullbreaker Horror or Toxrill, the Corrosive. The lobster is sort of a combo engine itself with enough mana positive rocks, so there's that.

I definitely think you're aiming for high power non-cedh as the basement for power here, but I'm the sort of guy who will play whatever, I'm not about the salt. I couldn't get your link to open on a work comp, so not quite sure what's in right now, but Tas is known to be cedh level good. Definitely not tier 1 anymore, but there's strong lists with him at the helm.

[TheGildedGoose]

I think I've landed on Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools and Thrasios, Triton Hero infinite turns.

Seasons Past + tutor + time magic

Shigeki, Jukai Visionary + regrowth effect + time magic

Winning after generating infinite turns is academic, but Nephalia Drownyard, Field of the Dead, Szat's ultimate, and yes, Beast Within with Reality Shift (after all, infinite recursion with infinite turns is de facto infinite mana).

There are five tutors I'm running that can grab Seasons Past:

• Demonic Tutor
• Vampiric Tutor
• Mystical Tutor
• Imperial Seal
• Solve the Equation

There are four regrowth effects that can get Shigeki back:

• Volrath's Stronghold
• Noxious Revival
• Regrowth
• Bala Ged Recovery

Both categories have ways to prevent decking out via infinite turns (top deck tutors/recursion) and all are useful in their own right. The only somewhat dead cards are the time spells, and they're still pretty good with a mana sink and a planeswalker in the command zone.

Still working on the land count and ramp package but I think I'm moving in the right direction.

[pokken]

I had this deck built in my head with Ashnod's Altar and Tormod, the Desecrator and Field of the Dead as ways to help crank out enough mana to enable the loops earlier without having to spend a crazy amount of effort ramping (and also able to crank into Thrasios, Triton Hero if desired).

The time magic spells can mostly be thought of as Rampant Growth failure state, so they're fine.

The two I think are best are Walk the Aeons and one of the Time Warp / Temporal Mastery pair.

The reason for this is that Walk the Aeons + Life from the Loam can bridge you sometimes 3-4 turns to get to a win early if you want.

I would also recommend running Eternal Witness or Skullwinder since the Volrath's Stronghold becomes its own loop that way, especially if you run a sac outlet land.

[TheGildedGoose]

The two I think are best are Walk the Aeons and one of the Time Warp / Temporal Mastery pair.

The reason for this is that Walk the Aeons + Life from the Loam can bridge you sometimes 3-4 turns to get to a win early if you want.

I would also recommend running Eternal Witness or Skullwinder since the Volrath's Stronghold becomes its own loop that way, especially if you run a sac outlet land.

With Capture of Jingzhou seeing a reprint I think it and Temporal Manipulation are best. I will not have my victory thwarted by Shunt.

EWit is actually another pseudo infinite turn combo with Szat in play and time magic in the yard. Seems like an easy include.

How many extra turn spells? Two seems sufficient as having one as a back up is handy.

What's my ramp package? Getting to 15+ mana with just land drops doesn't seem likely.

[pokken]

How many extra turn spells? Two seems sufficient as having one as a back up is handy.

In my various extra turn builds I use 2, Walk the Aeons and Temporal Manipulation (Capture of Jingzhou might be better). Being able to double turn on Walk the Aeons is worth the 1 mana.

re: ramp package
The package I was aiming for was something like - bomb mana and thrasios package:

• cryptolith rite
• earthcraft
• ashnod's altar
• biomancer's familiar
• seedborn muse
• training grounds

then a very small extra land drops package

• life from the loam
• exploration
• green sun's zenith
• wayward swordtooth

Then some random goodstuff

• sakura-tribe scout
• birds of paradise
• bloom tender
• retreat to coralhelm

Plus whatever other random busted stuff you want.

My thought was you could set up kinda go-off packages, like; Ashnod's Altar + Thrasios, Triton Hero + Training Grounds == every time you hit a land, get 1-2 zombies, sac it for 2 mana and chain explode.

Similar go-iffs like Bloom Tender + Retreat to Coralhelm where you just vomit thrasios a bunch of times.

Probably that's all half-baked and too much, but any of it could be scrapped in favor of better stuff---especially Retreat to Coralhelm is pretty cute and hard to find. But hilarious

It's probable that just sticking Seedborn Muse or Ashnod's Altar and Thrasios, Triton Hero is gonna be GGs. Can also add stuff like the Awakening and Wilderness Reclamation if you wanna get super cute I guess.

Basically, focus on ramping with Thrasios for the most part, with maybe exploration and stuff.

I think the Earthcraft // Cryptolith Rite + Field of the Dead (and Tormod, the Desecrator for me) plus Ashnod's Altar and Seedborn Muse + Thrasios, Triton Hero package should be good enough to get it done most of the time.

(the Earthcraft package works great with Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools as well, oh and also Song of Freyalise is an option for a third piece)

my super raw original draft: https://deckbox.org/sets/3272268

I don't think I had squeaked the earthcraft package in at that point but it's in my brain I also had Golgari Grave-Troll + Splendid Reclamation in there lol.

[materpillar]

Assuming you're playing with other Adult Person decks, these seem like compact and decent win conditions. Would you complain if you lost to any of these methods?

I'm not sure that my 2c are particularly helpful with how far down the brainstorming rabbit hole you are but I find extra turns to be the opposite of a classy win condition. Your decklist seems to be relying extremely hard on sticking your commanders for card advantage.

[TheGildedGoose]

I'm not sure that my 2c are particularly helpful with how far down the brainstorming rabbit hole you are but I find extra turns to be the opposite of a classy win condition.

Well, how would you prefer to lose? In 6 combat steps from Phelddagrif interspersed with a bevy of removal and countermagic, or a conclusive win that allows you to immediately shuffle up and play again? You're dead either way, but one takes a hell of a lot longer than the other. That said, I do feel really bad about playing solitaire if someone wants to stick it out because they're a stubborn ass.

This is a very frustrating topic for me because it appears as though there's no pleasing everyone (or anyone at all it seems sometimes). I desperately want to have a blue-based control deck to play, but I always struggle with win conditions. I either build a spell stax deck and win with a commander that evades the commander tax, or close out with a combo. The other alternatives are lukewarm, middle-ground compromises. Sure, I could Neoform Tasigur, the Golden Fang into Hullbreaker Horror and generate a ton of value that way, but is it going to win me a multiplayer non-cEDH game? And really, isn't that another combo that just happens to be significantly less reliable?

I don't know. Maybe it's a question without an answer. Maybe people are going to complain regardless because complaining is what people do when they don't get their way.

EDIT: Why does Shigeki, Jukai Visionary specify nonlegendary? Weak.

[Treamayne]

You're dead either way, but one takes a hell of a lot longer than the other. That said, I do feel really bad about playing solitaire if someone wants to stick it out because they're a stubborn ass.

Thanks for the compliment. Though, I would like to note there are other reasons for playing out a game; not just being stubborn or being an ass.

I don't know. Maybe it's a question without an answer. Maybe people are going to complain regardless because complaining is what people do when they don't get their way.

Of course there is no pleasing everybody, as long as you and your playgroup are happy, that's all that should matter.

However, you solicited opinions, so it seems slightly disingenuous to now attack us for not sharing your opinion.

EDIT: Why does Shigeki, Jukai Visionary specify nonlegendary? Weak.

Probably Block Limited loops, discarding him to channel to retrieve him and other cards at the same time is probably something they wanted to avoid in Standard/Limited.

[TheGildedGoose]

Thanks for the compliment. Though, I would like to note there are other reasons for playing out a game; not just being stubborn or being an ass.

Of course there is no pleasing everybody, as long as you and your playgroup are happy, that's all that should matter.

However, you solicited opinions, so it seems slightly disingenuous to now attack us for not sharing your opinion.

Probably Block Limited loops, discarding him to channel to retrieve him and other cards at the same time is probably something they wanted to avoid in Standard/Limited.

If you have no out and I'm taking infinite turns and have demonstrated a win condition, I think it's good sportsmanship and polite to scoop and shake, personally.

To be clear, the second thing you quoted was more introspective, dejected musing than an attack on any of you. Trust me, I don't particularly like combos, but a control deck realistically needs one to finish games in a reasonable time frame in a multiplayer format. Doing so in a way that feels rewarding for me and doesn't leave a bad taste in my opponents' mouths is the dream. I just don't think it's plausible.

As for Shigeki, interestingly enough, giving him the nonlegendary restriction makes me unable to use him in my Brokkos, Apex of Forever deck, which relies on recurring Brokkos as often as needed to kill someone. This pushes me toward a combo finish. So really, it's WotC's fault I'm doing dumb combos.

I do like the Conduit of Worlds interaction with Brokkos, though. Maybe it's enough to have a sticky, evasive threat in the command zone, which is really the secret sauce of Dirk's Phelddagrif deck.

[Treamayne]

Like I said, it is you and your playgroup(s) that really matter in the determination.

If you have no out and I'm taking infinite turns and have demonstrated a win condition, I think it's good sportsmanship and polite to scoop and shake, personally.

And I think it's good sportsmanship for the combo player to demonstrate the combo, then bow out themselves and let the rest of us finish the game (for second place).

To be clear, the second thing you quoted was more introspective, dejected musing than an attack on any of you. Trust me, I don't particularly like combos, but a control deck realistically needs one to finish games in a reasonable time frame in a multiplayer format.

I didn't necessarily think it was directed at me (specifically) but it sure felt like it was directed at all of the anti-combo comments in the thread (at least that was the impression I had from the lack of any indicators of joking or self-deprecation).

a control deck realistically needs one to finish games in a reasonable time frame in a multiplayer format. Doing so in a way that feels rewarding for me and doesn't leave a bad taste in my opponents' mouths is the dream. I just don't think it's plausible.

A combo finish is one thing; a combo finish before T8, using any well-known cEDH components; or using less than three cards (ideally 4 or more) is something entirely different - which was why I previously said there needs to be deck descriptors between casual and cEDH. I have no problem with "combo in casual" - but I do feel that not all implementations of combo can reasonably be called "casual" just because the deck is not cEDH tuned.

Play what you like, use Rule 0 - just expect me to politely bow-out if that is how you describe the deck before we shuffle up.

[TheGildedGoose]

Well, I did it. I went with Tasigur, the Golden Fang infinite mana with Turnabout or Rude Awakening with Shigeki, Jukai Visionary + Regrowth or Seasons Past + Demonic Tutor as the way to generate the mana. I did decide to go with a unique and fun way to pay off that infinite mana and recursion, though. Let's see if you can spot it.

Bananas All the Way Down

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander:

1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Lands: 40

1 Academy Ruins

1 Arch of Orazca

1 Bala Ged Sanctuary

1 Bloodstained Mire

1 Bojuka Bog

1 Boseiju, Who Endures

1 Breeding Pool

1 Command Tower

1 Field of the Dead

1 Flooded Strand

1 Marsh Flats

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Mystic Sanctuary

1 Nephalia Drownyard

1 Otawara, Soaring City

1 Overgrown Tomb

1 Polluted Delta

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Scalding Tarn

1 Sea Gate, Reborn

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Watery Grave

1 Windswept Heath

1 Wooded Foothills

1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth

1 Zagoth Triome

2 Forest

3 Island

1 Swamp

2 Snow-Covered Forest

3 Snow-Covered Island

1 Snow-Covered Swamp

Ramp: 8

1 Exploration

1 Farseek

1 Nature's Lore

1 Rampant Growth

1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

1 Three Visits

1 Cultivate

1 Kodama's Reach

Countermagic: 12

1 An Offer You Can't Refuse

1 Swan Song

1 Counterspell

1 Mana Drain

1 Negate

1 Disallow

1 Fierce Guardianship

1 Forbid

1 Force of Negation

1 Voidslime

1 Force of Will

1 Mystic Confluence

Spot Removal: 10

1 Assassin's Trophy

1 Echoing Truth

1 Heartless Act

1 Infernal Grasp

1 Reality Shift

1 Tear Asunder

1 Beast Within

1 Capsize

1 Song of the Dryads

1 Baleful Mastery

Board Wipes: 8

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Oblivion Stone

1 Pernicious Deed

1 Toxic Deluge

1 Damnation

1 Nevinyrral's Disk

1 Perilous Vault

1 Evacuation

Recursion: 7

1 Noxious Revival

1 Regrowth

1 Shigeki, Jukai Visionary

1 Crucible of Worlds

1 Eternal Witness

1 Conduit of Worlds

1 Seasons Past

Tutor: 5

1 Imperial Seal

1 Mystical Tutor

1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Demonic Tutor

1 Solve the Equation

Sustain: 5

1 Glacial Chasm

1 Maze of Ith

1 Spore Frog

1 Constant Mists

1 Moment's Peace

Infinite Mana: 2

1 Turnabout

1 Rude Awakening

Bees: 2

1 Bee Sting

1 Unyaro Bee Sting

Approximate Total Cost:

I know, infinite mana win conditions are academic, but I think it's easier to swallow losing to infinite bees than it is something like Beast Within + Reality Shift. I still wouldn't play this at beer and pretzel casual games or intentionally lower-powered games (not that I would play a hard control deck, particularly blue-based, in those environments at all) but for the environment in which this deck is supposed to exist I think it's fine.

[pokken]

but I think it's easier to swallow losing to infinite bees than it is something like Beast Within + Reality Shift

Doesn't the mana cost of the Bee Sting spells conflict with seasons past for Turnabout? or am I missing a step?

[TheGildedGoose]

but I think it's easier to swallow losing to infinite bees than it is something like Beast Within + Reality Shift

Doesn't the mana cost of the Bee Sting spells conflict with seasons past for Turnabout? or am I missing a step?

Combo One

Requirements: some combination of Seasons Past, Turnabout, and Demonic Tutor in your hand, graveyard, or library, and 13+ lands

Tap 13+ lands
Cast Seasons Past returning Turnabout and Demonic Tutor (7+ mana)
Cast Demonic Tutor for Seasons Past (5+ mana)
Cast Turnabout untapping your lands (1+ mana)
Tap 13+ lands (14+ mana)
Repeat for infinite mana and recursion

Combo Two

Requirements: some combination of Shigeki, Jukai Visionary, Turnabout, and Regrowth in your hand or graveyard, and 13+ lands

Tap 13+ lands
Channel Shigeki, Jukai Visionary returning Turnabout and Regrowth (7+ mana)
Cast Regrowth returning Shigeki, Jukai Visionary (5+ mana)
Cast Turnabout untapping your lands (1+ mana)
Tap 13+ lands (14+ mana)
Repeat for infinite mana and recursion

Add in Tasigur, the Golden Fang for infinite self-mill to enable everything.

[pokken]

I see, once you have done that you can just stop SP'ing turnabout and get bee sting:P lol. Brain no workie

[materpillar]

TLDR; Bee Sting >>>>> Time Warp for me emotionally

Well, how would you prefer to lose? In 6 combat steps from Phelddagrif interspersed with a bevy of removal and countermagic, or a conclusive win that allows you to immediately shuffle up and play again? You're dead either way, but one takes a hell of a lot longer than the other. That said, I do feel really bad about playing solitaire if someone wants to stick it out because they're a stubborn ass.

I've been busy sorry for the delayed response. You don't really need to respond to the following, it's just my personal extremely subjective musings on your question. I'm somewhat torn on this one. I have a friend who plays extremely grindy control decks without winconditions and it's fairly miserable. One game he tried to beat the table to death with a handful of morph creatures. That game was awful. On the other hand, I find non-interactive winconditions that come out of no where to also be pretty miserable. Off hand from your hypothetical infinite turns vs Phelddagrif I'd lean towards Phelddagrif.

This is a very frustrating topic for me because it appears as though there's no pleasing everyone (or anyone at all it seems sometimes). I desperately want to have a blue-based control deck to play, but I always struggle with win conditions. I either build a spell stax deck and win with a commander that evades the commander tax, or close out with a combo. The other alternatives are lukewarm, middle-ground compromises. Sure, I could Neoform Tasigur, the Golden Fang into Hullbreaker Horror and generate a ton of value that way, but is it going to win me a multiplayer non-cEDH game? And really, isn't that another combo that just happens to be significantly less reliable?

I don't know. Maybe it's a question without an answer. Maybe people are going to complain regardless because complaining is what people do when they don't get their way.

You can't please everyone. Some people just refuse to enjoy losing under any circumstance which is a shame. I once sacrificed Glacial Chasm every one of my upkeeps and replayed it second main phase with Life from the Loam so I could attack the table to death with Progenitus and I was verbally attacked for "not having a wincondition. That one has confused me more than any other salt mine I've encountered. Anyway, here's my personal thoughts on the matter. Do note, my metagame is significantly less cut throat than the one this deck is built for. Thus my experiences don't translate 1-to-1 to what you're trying to build.

For starters, having ways to kill people is good. Friends don't try to beat friends to death with morph creatures when they've staxed everyone out. Speed it up a bit here.

I find the more resilient a combo / wincondition is the less satisfying it is to lose to. My personal motto is that if mono-W can't meaningfully interact with the wincondition it's probably not one I'm interested in playing. It's not fun to die to something primarily because you didn't feel like playing blue when you shuffled up your deck. Hence, my displeasure towards Thassa's Oracle and Time Walk. I find playing cards specifically with clear ways for them to be stopped/interacted with as a pretty important part of reducing salt. The more mana and cards you're dumping into a play the harder it can be to interact with and still be satisfying to lose to.

Here's a rough list of some of the "murder everyone/someone" buttons I have in some of my decks. They don't usually receive much negativity in my experience.
Progenitus + Savage Beating
Avacyn, Angel of Hope + Worldslayer
Finale of Devastation + Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Lazav, the Multifarious → Invisible Stalker → Phage the Untouchable
Mirror Entity + Priest of Titania + Wirewood Symbiote

Once you hit 10+ mana and 3+ cards the salt around infinite combos drops dramatically even in casual tables. As such, I'd personally not be 100% thrilled to go up against your combo the first time because it's hard to meaningfully interact with as you basically have to pre-emptively nuke your graveyard or run blue cards. After the first game I'd probably be somewhat fine with it because it'd be much easier to play around your ticking doomsday clock and graveyard hate can chuck key pieces. If your combo feels fine-ish to me, I'd guess its reasonable for really tryhard "casual" games.

I hope someday someone naturally goes to 1 life independent of your actions and you kill them with Bee Sting in response to theirThassa's Oracle / game winning play of that nature.