How big do you think the banlist ought to be?

[DirkGently]

Without getting into specifics of which sorts of cards should or shouldn't be banned, roughly how many cards do you think would need to be on the banlist to make the format ideal in your eyes? For sake of this poll ignore un-cards since that gets tricky (I.e. people who want un-cards might still want a longish banlist but I don't think that's true for ante etc).

This would be an actual banlist, so not "how many cards you wish hadn't been printed?" Difference being that a long banlist means more overhead to keep track of and manage.

[onering]

I don't think putting a number on it is very useful. Depending on how the format evolves the correct number will rise and fall.

[DirkGently]

Lol those numbers are all over the place.

I don't think putting a number on it is very useful. Depending on how the format evolves the correct number will rise and fall.

Of course the number (your number) could change in the future, but I'm talking about right now. Since it's your number, you're making your own call about where the format should "evolve".

[pokken]

I think there are probably another 20 or so dumb wastes of cards that should be banned and probably another bunch of commanders I could see making the format better if they didn't exist. I voted 71-100 but could go as high as 150 if you went nuts on commanders.

I flip flop on this issue a lot largely depending on how recently I encountered expropriate or Zur or whatever.

I feel like the number is somewhat not that important so much as the regularity of banning something. The game gets pretty stagnant when there isn't a "cultural reminder" ban it feels like. Like go three years with no new sylvan primordial type ban and people just drift back into thinking craterhoof is fine again or whatever.

Not sure I explained that well enough but I'd like to see a semi mandatory ban once a year at least. There is always some dumb card that we start seeing everywhere and you conk it and things get better for a while ?

Right now top of my list is dockside :p

[TheGildedGoose]

71-100, roughly a 50% net growth of the banlist after some unbans. Things don't need to change dramatically on a card by card count, but I do disagree somewhat with the banlist philosophy and there are several categories of cards I would add to it.

[DirkGently]

I initially went with 71-100 but decided on 101-150.

I think I'd ban just about all extra turn cards, the good MLD (yes including Ruination), anything that lets you win the game when your library is empty, mindslaver effects, probably cradle if I'm being honest even though I'd lose a lot of value...probably a handful of the more obnoxious commanders, omniscience, a couple of the more popular combo cards like palinchron food chain DEN, a handful of the stupid color hoser cards like Boiling Seas and Acid Rain... I think I could get to at least 101 but could restrain myself to below 150.

And then I'd take off Gifts Ungiven, Braids, Cabal Minion, Flash (put hulk back on the banlist though), Recurring Nightmare, and Library of Alexandria

71-100, roughly a 50% net growth of the banlist after some unbans. Things don't need to change dramatically on a card by card count, but I do disagree somewhat with the banlist philosophy and there are several categories of cards I would add to it.

I'm curious which categories you'd ban, and whether they overlap with mine.

really curious which madlad said over 3000 (if they were serious, otherwise idc obviously).

[TheGildedGoose]

I'm curious which categories you'd ban, and whether they overlap with mine.

Permanent fast mana, low mv combo enablers, "one card combos," and generically overpowered support cards.

[Jemolk]

I think things are in a pretty good spot at the moment, mostly. I know I'm in the minority on this, but some tweaks around the edges are the most I'd want to see from the banlist. I'd suggest instead placing format philosophy somewhere much more front-and-center where newer players struggle to avoid it. The idea of not treating Commander like an inherently hyper-competitive tournament format is what really needs to be more widespread, and more bans aren't even capable of fixing that issue. The signpost bans of the most egregious stuff are good. I would add Expropriate as a signpost goodstuff ban, but other than that, there's not much I want to add, and while I might be inclined to remove Gifts Ungiven, there's little else I'd want to unban either. Again, tweaks around the edges. I think things are already close to in the right place with regards to the banlist. I think the philosophy being treated as an obvious joke by large swaths of the playerbase (because to them, obviously any banlist can only be coherent by exclusively catering to balancing hypercompetitive play at the most unrestrained ) is the real problem. I've seen this attitude crop up too many times when the banlist comes up as a topic, particularly on YouTube, and I'd like to see it go. As long as it's around, no banlist will fix the format, and once it's gone, the current one will mostly suffice.

[ISBPathfinder]

I don't think it should have an objective size. I think it should expand as large as is needed. That said I think there are still several cards that got through in fire design that are legal that absolutely have no business being legal in this format like Thassa's Oracle. I think that the power of commanders in fire design also was a mistake and I would probably also ban several legends (Urza, Lord High Artificer, Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, and Chulane, Teller of Tales would be a few of the many I would ban)

I am for banning a lot of things that are legal though. If I had my way the banned list would probably expand by something like 20 cards. That said I also have a number of cards on the list right now I would remove that I would classify as problems of another era in commander (like Panoptic Mirror and Braids, Cabal Minion).

Reading the above comments, I also agree on expanding the banned list to include most of the MLD effects / Sunder / Back to Basics.

[BaronCappuccino]

Ideally, I'd only ban cards fundamentally incompatible with the format, but the special categories denoted in the poll description are fine being included as such. I don't recall all the cards banned as racist, but I do have a vague recollection that some were iffy calls. None of the cards in said category are good enough to risk sticking my neck out in defense of when the charge is racism, so they can all go as charged. Commander has a Rule 0 that sometimes you might think the RC believes in, and it should handle power level disputes, not the ban list. I could very easily take a position of poll option 1, as cards like Shahrazad needn't be hard banned in a format that's all about huge, absurd situations, but I cast my vote for option 2. If Rule 0 was ever intended to be more than just a magic shield of deflection for unwanted banlist discussions, let it do its job.

[PrimevalCommander]

I voted "Roughly Current Length" which was the relevant text to me. I think it is looking pretty good. But I may add about a dozen cards or so if I could. Mainly those already mentioned like Expropriate, Thassa's Oracle, Armageddon, and other things like these. But I would be more selective and not ban swaths of similar cards, just the egregious offenders to send a message about what we don't want to play. I know many players hate the half-in-half-out nature of those types of bans, but I just don't want to see the banlist hit 150-200 cards because X card does something like Y banned card, but not as good.

Unban Primeval Titan FTW!! My favorite card and I can't play it.

[wildfire393]

I voted "Roughly Current Length" which was the relevant text to me. I think it is looking pretty good. But I may add about a dozen cards or so if I could. Mainly those already mentioned like Expropriate, Thassa's Oracle, Armageddon, and other things like these. But I would be more selective and not ban swaths of similar cards, just the egregious offenders to send a message about what we don't want to play. I know many players hate the half-in-half-out nature of those types of bans, but I just don't want to see the banlist hit 150-200 cards because X card does something like Y banned card, but not as good.

Unban Primeval Titan FTW!! My favorite card and I can't play it.

I was just reminiscing about 2011-2012 commander, after WotC fixed one of the biggest holes in the format with Commander 2011 (the fact that there weren't any options besides the PC Dragons for 4/5 wedge combos) but before they started printing stuff like Eminence, Derevi, Planeswalker Commanders, Marath, etc that just totally bypass the normal restrictions on the format. The old legend and tuck rules also existed back then, and Primetime was legal up until late 2012.

I remember so many games degenerating into "who can Primeval Titan the most"-fests, but holy crap was it FUN! Like yeah that one card centralized the format, and if you weren't playing green you basically had to play a pile of theft, clones, or reanimator for it (and mono-White just kinda got pooped on but honestly that's still true), but it still felt great because it basically just let everyone do their thing more consistently. Got mana-screwed? That's okay, Phantasmal Image puts you back into the game.

So yeah, free Primeval Titan. I mean, you really probably shouldn't as grabbing Cradle + Field of the Dead every time is just stupid good these days but I waaaaaant it.

[DirkGently]

The signpost bans of the most egregious stuff are good. I would add Expropriate as a signpost goodstuff ban,

Which current bans do you think function as "signpost bans"? I see people using that idea but I'm not convinced it has much meaningful impact. MLD is pretty universally reviled but there's not really any bans that signpost it. Upheaval doesn't destroy, balance can kill lands but doesn't have to (certainly a new player looking at it doesn't immediately think "oh, this would mostly be used to destroy all lands"), limited resources is clearly banned for working badly in multiplayer. I think the grassroots dislike of MLD never required a signpost ban. As far as expropriate, there are already plenty of goodstuff cards on the banlist and none of those have stopped anyone.

[Legend]

Ban:

• Acid Rain
• Anarchy
• Boiling Seas
• Choke
• Conversion
• Curse of Marit Lage
• Drought
• Flashfires
• Flooded Woodlands
• Glaciers
• Karma
• Karn, the Great Creator
• Light of Day
• Llawan, Cephalid Empress
• Martyr's Cry
• Mastermind's Acquisition
• Nature's Ruin
• Perish
• Reclamation
• Reign of Terror
• Stench of Evil
• Tsunami
• Virtue's Ruin
• Wrath of Marit Lage

[Pyramus]

I answered for casual commander for which I say 0. Figure it out with your own group. This does require communication when people join groups but that shouldn't be in issue.
Then again, you can already just ignore the banlist and get the same effect, I know my group does for the most part.

For competitive on the other hand I'd say either ban tons of stuff in an attempt to even the playing field and remove everything that goes against "the spirit of the format" (aka things that go around the 21 commander damage and normal 0 life or 0 deck wincons as well as things that make games non interactive) or ban nothing (other than ante etc.).

[folding_music]

I don't think the intended guidepost-y nature of the banlist actually works at all. Upheaval being banned has not stopped Cyclonic Rift from being a top card that ruins the game, Panoptic Mirror and Recurring Nightmare being banned doesn't dissuade anyone from playing the entire game out of their graveyard or repeatedly playing the same card, etc. wish they'd just actually clarify the strats they found undesirable by banning like crazy, or unbanning the vague stuff.

edit: blah blah

a long banlist makes building a deck harder, kinda prefer subdivisions of the format whose names encapsulate the explanation eg. shuffleless, pauper, one-legend-only etc

[PrimevalCommander]

I was just reminiscing about 2011-2012 commander, after WotC fixed one of the biggest holes in the format with Commander 2011 (the fact that there weren't any options besides the PC Dragons for 4/5 wedge combos) but before they started printing stuff like Eminence, Derevi, Planeswalker Commanders, Marath, etc that just totally bypass the normal restrictions on the format. The old legend and tuck rules also existed back then, and Primetime was legal up until late 2012.

I remember so many games degenerating into "who can Primeval Titan the most"-fests, but holy crap was it FUN! Like yeah that one card centralized the format, and if you weren't playing green you basically had to play a pile of theft, clones, or reanimator for it (and mono-White just kinda got pooped on but honestly that's still true), but it still felt great because it basically just let everyone do their thing more consistently. Got mana-screwed? That's okay, Phantasmal Image puts you back into the game.

So yeah, free Primeval Titan.

Ah, the good old days. This may be a hot take, but I personally think that back when Primeval drew every blue player to clones, Bribery was an auto-include, Tuck forced you to consider consequences for going all-in on your commander, and Legend rule allowed clones to act as removal for legens all made the game MORE FUN. I mean, clones were really good and so versatile back in the day. I used to play 4-6 of them in old Riku of Two Reflections along with Bribery as well. Games were wacky and interesting. Yes, Primeval centralized the game, but exile removal was key to stop that mini-game from going. Even if it did, back then it was mostly just super ramp which helped players do what their deck wanted to do. But I'm a biased fanboi. Least it can't be your commander

On topic, I have generally been happy with the RC ban list and their methods for years. Rather than draw a hard line in the sand and start banning tons of broken combo cards and "oops I win" single card win conditions to force the entire format into a casual corner, they have room for the player base to foster several sub-sects of Commander (EDH) from casual jank, to turn 1 wins, and everything in between.

I do have a difference of view point with my current play group. They like to push the envelope and walk the line between 75% and cEDH. Luckily they haven't gotten the streamlined combo lines down and my 75% decks still do quite well. I pack plenty of removal and they don't, which typically leaves me at an advantage against their fragile combos.

Edit: Remembering back, commanders were really hard to stick any commander with clones flying all over the place, so maybe the new legend rule isn't so bad. But tuck did go a long way to slow down decks like Prossh, Skyraider of Kher and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician that never get worse when they go to the command zone. I'm sure other's felt the same way against my Karador, Ghost Chieftain which I have been playing since Commander 2011 release, dang over 10 years now. Longest streak for any commander deck I have every made.

[ISBPathfinder]

Edit: Remembering back, commanders were really hard to stick any commander with clones flying all over the place, so maybe the new legend rule isn't so bad. But tuck did go a long way to slow down decks like Prossh, Skyraider of Kher and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician that never get worse when they go to the command zone. I'm sure other's felt the same way against my Karador, Ghost Chieftain which I have been playing since Commander 2011 release, dang over 10 years now. Longest streak for any commander deck I have every made.

Tuck slowed everything down but the problem was that if you weren't in a green / black based deck you didn't have tutors to get out of it. It made a lot of the better colors even better and the worse colors even worse. White and red based things (I am talking things primarily mono color or boros) still have trouble now that you can't tuck them but it was so much worse back then. You essentially had to just play the goodstuff colors because you would otherwise get tucked and just be done. It also forced a lot more generically good strategies rather than building around a commander because tuck was so rampant.

I don't disagree that it made some problems less of a problem but it made the things that aren't as good but walked into Terminus still really abysmal. I got to the point of playing Thrun, the Last Troll as a commander for a while because he dodged all but the sweeping tucks.

[pokken]

I don't disagree that it made some problems less of a problem

I think tuck made commanders *seem* like less of a problem more than actually improving anything. I think it was mostly window dressing; there were so few decent tuck cards and all clustered in blue and white. The times when you got tuck-screwed were very memorable on both sides but they weren't as common as people remembered, certainly not common enough to keep people off of Maelstrom Wanderer.

At the core, in a singleton format, "a handful of cards do this thing that solves your problem" is not really a way to solve structural problems. A specialized sideboard card can solve problems in traditional formats, but we can't play 4 copies of Spell Crumple - it was two copies, and it was usually worse to play than just trying to win the game at the top end of the power level. People easily forget all the times Hinder cost them the game by costing 3 mana.


TL;DR tuck was lipstick on a pig to the problems of constant casting of commanders.

(and as you rightly note, had a massive net negative of encouraging mindless goodstuff)

[ISBPathfinder]

I don't disagree that it made some problems less of a problem

I think tuck made commanders *seem* like less of a problem more than actually improving anything. I think it was mostly window dressing; there were so few decent tuck cards and all clustered in blue and white. The times when you got tuck-screwed were very memorable on both sides but they weren't as common as people remembered, certainly not common enough to keep people off of Maelstrom Wanderer.

At the core, in a singleton format, "a handful of cards do this thing that solves your problem" is not really a way to solve structural problems. A specialized sideboard card can solve problems in traditional formats, but we can't play 4 copies of Spell Crumple - it was two copies, and it was usually worse to play than just trying to win the game at the top end of the power level. People easily forget all the times Hinder cost them the game by costing 3 mana.


TL;DR tuck was lipstick on a pig to the problems of constant casting of commanders.

(and as you rightly note, had a massive net negative of encouraging mindless goodstuff)

I played a LOT of Jenara, Asura of War through that time. I ran almost every playable tuck effect and I got to run green tutors. It was kind of insanity how good Bant was through that time.

Sadly white as a splash color actually lost a good bit of power with the loss of tuck. It gained a lot in the mono / boros though in that you could actually focus on something other than goodstuff tactics though. ETB abuse was so much bigger back then because it was hard to screw with.

[Cyberium]

It's curious... sometimes banning one card is enough to make several other cards a lot weaker (for example, Food Chain), so the balance is delicate.

I'm also in favor of banning artifacts that produce more mana than its cost, but that'd probably make a lot of people upset.

[BeneTleilax]

Ban sol ring, ban crypt, ban vault, let it shake out.

[Jemolk]

The signpost bans of the most egregious stuff are good. I would add Expropriate as a signpost goodstuff ban,

Which current bans do you think function as "signpost bans"? I see people using that idea but I'm not convinced it has much meaningful impact. MLD is pretty universally reviled but there's not really any bans that signpost it. Upheaval doesn't destroy, balance can kill lands but doesn't have to (certainly a new player looking at it doesn't immediately think "oh, this would mostly be used to destroy all lands"), limited resources is clearly banned for working badly in multiplayer. I think the grassroots dislike of MLD never required a signpost ban. As far as expropriate, there are already plenty of goodstuff cards on the banlist and none of those have stopped anyone.

I think that is at least one intention of pretty near the entire list, at least if I've understood the RC's ban announcements and philosophy document correctly. Land destruction could be grouped into a larger category of mana denial, which Upheaval counts for, but I think the real reason it hasn't had a major ban is because the RC hasn't felt like they need to tell people "Hey, don't do this" when it comes to Armageddon and friends. But cards that are very similar to those on the banlist are things that we should scrutinize more carefully.

Banning the worst offenders, telling people to avoid doing things that make the game less fun for other people, and pointing out that the banned cards were banned for wrecking games adds up to the message being intended, so far as I can tell, as being less about a hard line where the cards on one side are completely fine to play and the cards on the other are off-limits, but more as a sliding scale where these cards are almost universally too much, and indicate things you might not want to do to slightly lesser degrees with lesser versions either. When they axed Flash, for example, one of the lines in the ban announcement was this: "We use the banlist to guide players in how to approach the format and hope Flash's role on the list will be to signal "cheating things into play quickly in non-interactive ways isn't interesting, don't do that."" Time Vault, meanwhile, could function as "extra turn spam is not fun, don't do it," and Iona and Erayo could act as warnings against stax.

These guiding principles apply most to casual (as in, not cEDH) games, of course, but that's where the RC is mostly aiming the banlist anyway.

[TheGildedGoose]

Armageddon is a fair Magic card that should see more play*.

*when used as a win condition

[EonAon]

Honestly anyone playing land destruction is basically a self-neutering person. You get one game as haha yeah you win, but after that if you continue to play it, you basically get the biggest target painted on you even if you arent playing the deck. Its the same as the whole tap down decks that only allow you to untap one land. Sure, you win but you're on the list of people to kill now immediately and you have made the rest of the game unfun for everyone else.