STATE OF THE FORMAT 2024
Community Rules
‖ Commander Rules
@cryogen you got the nexus a shout out
https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2024 ... rmat-2024/
2024-01-27 JIM LAPAGE
Continuity and Process
This year we've been forced to grapple with a lot of change and transition. Sheldon's passing left huge holes in our hearts, and much of our work this year involved structural, behind-the-scenes things to ensure continuity. We want to honour Sheldon's legacy through a format that remains vibrant and social.
To that end, we're going to continue posting annual State of the Format articles in late January of each year, with two key changes. They'll:
be posted here, on www.mtgcommander.net rather than their traditional home on Star City Games as part of Sheldon's weekly articles;
AND
follow a more structured format, focusing on accomplishments of the previous year as well as setting goals for the upcoming year
We're hoping that this will provide a better look at what we're seeing, where we think we can improve, and the concrete steps we're taking in service of our goals.
Snapshot of the Format
Complexity and Diversity
Commander in 2023 was marked by an often overwhelming injection of new cards into the format. The format gained a little less than 2000 new cards (which is slightly less than 2022), and 398 of those were legendary creatures.*
*Huge thanks to @mtg_ds on twitter for helping to gather this data
This has led to a pretty drastic change in player behaviour. Ten years ago, for example, it may have been possible to maintain an encyclopedic knowledge of every new card, as well as the most common strategies associated with common commanders. Today, that's nearly impossible. The deluge of new cards – combined with their complexity – has even the most experienced players asking what cards do multiple times per game. This has three predictable outcomes, all of which we're seeing today:
The format has a steeper learning curve and higher cognitive load;
The format is more diverse than it ever has been;
Even more gameplay is improvised on the spot rather than practiced for.
Diversity doesn't mean that there's a total lack of cards that land in a majority of decks – simply that the format is drastically different than it was 5 or 10 years ago, when plenty of people could rattle off the entire list of 5-colour legendary creatures off the top of their head.
When cards do land in the majority of decks, they often seem to be cards that were designed specifically with Commander in mind. This does carry a benefit in that newer cards tend to be more available and more readily reprinted, but it does run the risk of eroding Commander's charm and personality. This isn't necessarily a problem to be solved, but it is something we're aware of. If you're reading this, one way you can help to preserve Commander's charm is to dig deep and play weird cards just because they don't have a home elsewhere.
All the new cards make it ever more likely that you'll find some perfect card that your opponents will have to read and try to figure out what to do with. That idea was inherent in the origins of Commander – a place to play the cards that weren't seen in other games, giving the format a more improvisational feel. Though the underlying cause is slightly different, the net effect is similar; in 2024 you'll need to play around cards you have to read.
Although Commander today has a steeper learning curve than it did in years past, there are no shortage of avenues to get people to start learning and playing. Widely available, well-built pre-constructed decks can allow anyone to sit down, enjoy a game and begin to grasp and learn all the concepts of magic gameplay. While Commander will never be the ideal way to learn the basics of Magic, a focus on the fun of the game goes a long way in carrying a player through that initial confusion.
We're really excited by the idea that you can pick up a preconstructed deck from your LGS and – with a little luck and skill – be able to hang with the folks who show up to play or the friends who have invited you to join their hobby. We are conscious, though, that as preconstructed decks become more powerful, people might skip over the experience of digging through bulk boxes for niche cards to upgrade or customize their decks. As ambassadors to the format, we love to share the joy of creativity and self-expression through deckbuilding, and we don't plan on shutting up about it.
Events Galore
In the past year, we've been thrilled to see numerous events spring back up across the globe, allowing people to play Commander in every way imaginable. We've seen packed Local Game Stores, CommandFests and MagicCon Command Zones filled with players representing the entire spectrum of Magic play. We love that folks are able to find like-minded people to enjoy the game with in a way that they enjoy, no matter the power level.
Feedback to Wizards
A lot of people didn't realize prior to 2023 that we give regular feedback to Wizards R&D on card design. This isn't new, but it's worth mentioning because we feel it's an important part of managing the format. Our job is not to fix problems with card or game design, nor to tell Wizards what they have to change (they have many concerns to balance, while we have only one!) We're able to help them identify potential problems so their skilled game designers can make informed decisions. Additionally, we highlight cards we are excited by and spaces we're excited to see them exploring. We continued to provide feedback this year, and while we can't talk about what's been discussed, remain very happy with our relationship with the Casual Play Design team, with whom we work closest.
Banlist Explanation Project
One of the key principles we focused on this year is documenting institutional knowledge – capturing an enduring record of the things we have in our brains, so they're not exclusively communicated (and often distorted) by word of mouth.
Years ago, we identified an opportunity to do this by modifying the official Commander banlist page to include short, easy-to-understand explanations for why each card earned its spot on the banlist. Previously, the best way to research these topics was to dig through our old banlist announcements, or read articles written by Sheldon or the other members of the Rules Committee.
Today, we're happy to announce that these modifications have been made to the banlist page. We drew heavily from archived announcements on MTGNexus, outstanding articles by Commander Advisory Group members Kristen Gregory and Tim Willoughby, and the collective recollections of folks who were involved at the time. We compiled the explanations with the assistance of Commander Advisory Group members Rachel Weeks, Charlotte Sable, and Shivam Bhatt. The resulting explanations are by no means comprehensive or exhaustive, as one of our goals was to keep them pithy enough for a mouseover-style interaction. We did our best to focus on important elements of each card and the play patterns that led to their removal from the cardpool.
Although we consider this project to be complete at the moment, we may modify these explanations in the future if we find that our brevity has come at the expense of clarity.
Status: Complete
501(c)(3) Status
As an organization, one of our goals is to be sustainable. We have expenses such as web hosting costs, and want to make sure we compensate our Official MTG Commander Discord moderators for their time and efforts, along with anyone else who provides us with their valuable services. Historically Sheldon handled many of these expenses out of pocket, resulting in a disruption with his passing. We are taking steps to get these finances on a firmer and more structured footing. We've historically had people and organizations reach out to us to offer help and financial support for the things we do, but it's important for us to avoid selling access or influence, or even the perception of doing so.
To this end, we've started work on establishing a 501(c)(3) – a nonprofit organization with appropriate oversight and financial transparency. Our goals here are to ensure that:
our financial obligations continue to be met during periods of transition;
any fundraising efforts we undertake are accompanied by appropriate disclosure;
AND
the Rules Committee as an organization exists independently of any of its constituent members.
We want to express our gratitude to Don Miner of EDHREC and to his staff for helping us navigate the legal waters on this project. His help has been tremendously valuable.
This project is well-underway, but there are still some administrative tasks we need to complete in 2024.
Status: Ongoing
Goals for next year
In keeping with this more structured approach to the State of the Format, we'd like to share some goals we have for 2024, with the intent to revisit them in next year's article.
501(c)(3) admin tasks
Complete all administrative and tasks related to the establishment of the 501(c)(3).
Philosophy and Operations
In last year's State of the Format article, Sheldon shared a preview of some potential changes to the format philosophy. It doesn't represent a shift in the philosophy – we will always be the format that focuses on creativity, self expression and having fun – but see opportunity for improved articulation of our goals and priorities. This work is ongoing, and requires a bit more polishing before it's ready for publication.
RC Stream
Our Thursday games at twitch.tv/CommanderRC continue to be some of the most direct contact the RC has with the online player base. Going into the new year, we're aiming for a more consistent schedule involving faster-paced games featuring the entire RC along with special guests from across the community. We're looking for more opportunities to grow and interact with the great community who join us on these streams.
https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2024 ... rmat-2024/
2024-01-27 JIM LAPAGE
Continuity and Process
This year we've been forced to grapple with a lot of change and transition. Sheldon's passing left huge holes in our hearts, and much of our work this year involved structural, behind-the-scenes things to ensure continuity. We want to honour Sheldon's legacy through a format that remains vibrant and social.
To that end, we're going to continue posting annual State of the Format articles in late January of each year, with two key changes. They'll:
be posted here, on www.mtgcommander.net rather than their traditional home on Star City Games as part of Sheldon's weekly articles;
AND
follow a more structured format, focusing on accomplishments of the previous year as well as setting goals for the upcoming year
We're hoping that this will provide a better look at what we're seeing, where we think we can improve, and the concrete steps we're taking in service of our goals.
Snapshot of the Format
Complexity and Diversity
Commander in 2023 was marked by an often overwhelming injection of new cards into the format. The format gained a little less than 2000 new cards (which is slightly less than 2022), and 398 of those were legendary creatures.*
*Huge thanks to @mtg_ds on twitter for helping to gather this data
This has led to a pretty drastic change in player behaviour. Ten years ago, for example, it may have been possible to maintain an encyclopedic knowledge of every new card, as well as the most common strategies associated with common commanders. Today, that's nearly impossible. The deluge of new cards – combined with their complexity – has even the most experienced players asking what cards do multiple times per game. This has three predictable outcomes, all of which we're seeing today:
The format has a steeper learning curve and higher cognitive load;
The format is more diverse than it ever has been;
Even more gameplay is improvised on the spot rather than practiced for.
Diversity doesn't mean that there's a total lack of cards that land in a majority of decks – simply that the format is drastically different than it was 5 or 10 years ago, when plenty of people could rattle off the entire list of 5-colour legendary creatures off the top of their head.
When cards do land in the majority of decks, they often seem to be cards that were designed specifically with Commander in mind. This does carry a benefit in that newer cards tend to be more available and more readily reprinted, but it does run the risk of eroding Commander's charm and personality. This isn't necessarily a problem to be solved, but it is something we're aware of. If you're reading this, one way you can help to preserve Commander's charm is to dig deep and play weird cards just because they don't have a home elsewhere.
All the new cards make it ever more likely that you'll find some perfect card that your opponents will have to read and try to figure out what to do with. That idea was inherent in the origins of Commander – a place to play the cards that weren't seen in other games, giving the format a more improvisational feel. Though the underlying cause is slightly different, the net effect is similar; in 2024 you'll need to play around cards you have to read.
Although Commander today has a steeper learning curve than it did in years past, there are no shortage of avenues to get people to start learning and playing. Widely available, well-built pre-constructed decks can allow anyone to sit down, enjoy a game and begin to grasp and learn all the concepts of magic gameplay. While Commander will never be the ideal way to learn the basics of Magic, a focus on the fun of the game goes a long way in carrying a player through that initial confusion.
We're really excited by the idea that you can pick up a preconstructed deck from your LGS and – with a little luck and skill – be able to hang with the folks who show up to play or the friends who have invited you to join their hobby. We are conscious, though, that as preconstructed decks become more powerful, people might skip over the experience of digging through bulk boxes for niche cards to upgrade or customize their decks. As ambassadors to the format, we love to share the joy of creativity and self-expression through deckbuilding, and we don't plan on shutting up about it.
Events Galore
In the past year, we've been thrilled to see numerous events spring back up across the globe, allowing people to play Commander in every way imaginable. We've seen packed Local Game Stores, CommandFests and MagicCon Command Zones filled with players representing the entire spectrum of Magic play. We love that folks are able to find like-minded people to enjoy the game with in a way that they enjoy, no matter the power level.
Feedback to Wizards
A lot of people didn't realize prior to 2023 that we give regular feedback to Wizards R&D on card design. This isn't new, but it's worth mentioning because we feel it's an important part of managing the format. Our job is not to fix problems with card or game design, nor to tell Wizards what they have to change (they have many concerns to balance, while we have only one!) We're able to help them identify potential problems so their skilled game designers can make informed decisions. Additionally, we highlight cards we are excited by and spaces we're excited to see them exploring. We continued to provide feedback this year, and while we can't talk about what's been discussed, remain very happy with our relationship with the Casual Play Design team, with whom we work closest.
Banlist Explanation Project
One of the key principles we focused on this year is documenting institutional knowledge – capturing an enduring record of the things we have in our brains, so they're not exclusively communicated (and often distorted) by word of mouth.
Years ago, we identified an opportunity to do this by modifying the official Commander banlist page to include short, easy-to-understand explanations for why each card earned its spot on the banlist. Previously, the best way to research these topics was to dig through our old banlist announcements, or read articles written by Sheldon or the other members of the Rules Committee.
Today, we're happy to announce that these modifications have been made to the banlist page. We drew heavily from archived announcements on MTGNexus, outstanding articles by Commander Advisory Group members Kristen Gregory and Tim Willoughby, and the collective recollections of folks who were involved at the time. We compiled the explanations with the assistance of Commander Advisory Group members Rachel Weeks, Charlotte Sable, and Shivam Bhatt. The resulting explanations are by no means comprehensive or exhaustive, as one of our goals was to keep them pithy enough for a mouseover-style interaction. We did our best to focus on important elements of each card and the play patterns that led to their removal from the cardpool.
Although we consider this project to be complete at the moment, we may modify these explanations in the future if we find that our brevity has come at the expense of clarity.
Status: Complete
501(c)(3) Status
As an organization, one of our goals is to be sustainable. We have expenses such as web hosting costs, and want to make sure we compensate our Official MTG Commander Discord moderators for their time and efforts, along with anyone else who provides us with their valuable services. Historically Sheldon handled many of these expenses out of pocket, resulting in a disruption with his passing. We are taking steps to get these finances on a firmer and more structured footing. We've historically had people and organizations reach out to us to offer help and financial support for the things we do, but it's important for us to avoid selling access or influence, or even the perception of doing so.
To this end, we've started work on establishing a 501(c)(3) – a nonprofit organization with appropriate oversight and financial transparency. Our goals here are to ensure that:
our financial obligations continue to be met during periods of transition;
any fundraising efforts we undertake are accompanied by appropriate disclosure;
AND
the Rules Committee as an organization exists independently of any of its constituent members.
We want to express our gratitude to Don Miner of EDHREC and to his staff for helping us navigate the legal waters on this project. His help has been tremendously valuable.
This project is well-underway, but there are still some administrative tasks we need to complete in 2024.
Status: Ongoing
Goals for next year
In keeping with this more structured approach to the State of the Format, we'd like to share some goals we have for 2024, with the intent to revisit them in next year's article.
501(c)(3) admin tasks
Complete all administrative and tasks related to the establishment of the 501(c)(3).
Philosophy and Operations
In last year's State of the Format article, Sheldon shared a preview of some potential changes to the format philosophy. It doesn't represent a shift in the philosophy – we will always be the format that focuses on creativity, self expression and having fun – but see opportunity for improved articulation of our goals and priorities. This work is ongoing, and requires a bit more polishing before it's ready for publication.
RC Stream
Our Thursday games at twitch.tv/CommanderRC continue to be some of the most direct contact the RC has with the online player base. Going into the new year, we're aiming for a more consistent schedule involving faster-paced games featuring the entire RC along with special guests from across the community. We're looking for more opportunities to grow and interact with the great community who join us on these streams.
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
Sheldon-"The secret of this format is in not breaking it. "
-
DirkGently My wins are unconditional
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 4 years ago
- Pronoun: he / him
Seems more aware of the state of the game and/or more candid than I would have expected. My expectations have raised somewhat.
Gifts unban when?
Gifts unban when?
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan
Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan
Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
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TheGildedGoose HONK HONK
- Posts: 1475
- Joined: 4 years ago
- Pronoun: any/all
- Contact:
Jim is great. I'm glad it appears as though he's stepping into the leadership role because I have a lot of respect for him not just as a player but also as a generally competent person. We're in good hands.DirkGently wrote: ↑3 months agoSeems more aware of the state of the game and/or more candid than I would have expected. My expectations have raised somewhat.
Gifts unban when?
gifts unban when
-
ISBPathfinder Bebopin
- Posts: 2186
- Joined: 5 years ago
- Pronoun: he / him
- Location: SD, USA
I can't help but read the explanations of why cards are banned and ask why the hell we haven't banned like 20 other cards that are bigger problems than cards we have actually had banned for years.
Reading the explination of the bans on Erayo, Soratami Ascendant // Erayo's Essence and Balance and then staring Thassa's Oracle in the eyes hurts my brain.
For the record, I had never once seen someone play Flash Hulk on me and I have played since 2010. I have seen at least 10 different opponents play Oracle across multiple decks and its always completely degenerate. I think I once saw someone play an oracle not for the win and it was literally only because he was mana screwed and it looked like it physically hurt him to play it like that.
Reading the explination of the bans on Erayo, Soratami Ascendant // Erayo's Essence and Balance and then staring Thassa's Oracle in the eyes hurts my brain.
Wow feeling like we don't have player agency..... god that sounds like Thassa's Oracle.Balance Ban wrote: On its face, Balance looks like a very effective catch-up strategy that's mechanically very white, but in practice it leads to slow, long games with a low density of meaningful decisions or memorable events. Players are often left with little-to-no resources and little-to-no cards in hand, feeling like they don't have any agency in the game they're playing.
So..... you are saying its a problem because people are going to build the deck to be tuned and for it to operate well.... gosh that sounds like Thassa's Oracle's problem in a nutshell.Erayo Ban wrote: When played as a commander, Erayo leads decks that cast and flip her early, leading to games where even targeted removal is often ineffective. Worse, a flipped Erayo does not always send a strong signal to newer players that the game is essentially over. The natural result is a play pattern that is nearly always one-sided and oppressive.
For the record, I had never once seen someone play Flash Hulk on me and I have played since 2010. I have seen at least 10 different opponents play Oracle across multiple decks and its always completely degenerate. I think I once saw someone play an oracle not for the win and it was literally only because he was mana screwed and it looked like it physically hurt him to play it like that.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Kelzam
I should preface this by saying I totally agree that Thassa's Oracle should be banned, and should have been banned years ago, but you're comparisons seem pretty pretty poor in my opinion.ISBPathfinder wrote: ↑3 months agoI can't help but read the explanations of why cards are banned and ask why the hell we haven't banned like 20 other cards that are bigger problems than cards we have actually had banned for years.
Reading the explination of the bans on Erayo, Soratami Ascendant // Erayo's Essence and Balance and then staring Thassa's Oracle in the eyes hurts my brain.
Wow feeling like we don't have player agency..... god that sounds like Thassa's Oracle.Balance Ban wrote: On its face, Balance looks like a very effective catch-up strategy that's mechanically very white, but in practice it leads to slow, long games with a low density of meaningful decisions or memorable events. Players are often left with little-to-no resources and little-to-no cards in hand, feeling like they don't have any agency in the game they're playing.
So..... you are saying its a problem because people are going to build the deck to be tuned and for it to operate well.... gosh that sounds like Thassa's Oracle's problem in a nutshell.Erayo Ban wrote: When played as a commander, Erayo leads decks that cast and flip her early, leading to games where even targeted removal is often ineffective. Worse, a flipped Erayo does not always send a strong signal to newer players that the game is essentially over. The natural result is a play pattern that is nearly always one-sided and oppressive.
For the record, I had never once seen someone play Flash Hulk on me and I have played since 2010. I have seen at least 10 different opponents play Oracle across multiple decks and its always completely degenerate. I think I once saw someone play an oracle not for the win and it was literally only because he was mana screwed and it looked like it physically hurt him to play it like that.
Balance causes players to feel like they have no agency because they have insufficient resources to actually do anything. Thassa's Oracle doesn't really cause stalemates, nor does it directly effect your opponents resources.
I feel like your putting words in their mouth when you say "So..... you are saying its a problem because people are going to build the deck to be tuned and for it to operate well" because... that's not what they said at all. They said that it is uninteractive. Building your deck around your commander is like, the entire point commander.
Thassa's Oracle should be banned, and that becomes pretty obvious imo when you compare it to Flash and the reasons given for banning flash. Comparing Thassa's Oracle to Balance or Erayo, Soratami Ascendant // Erayo's Essence is comparing apples to oranges and, imo disingenuous.
idk, maybe I should just agree with you because I totally agree with your final conclusion, but your argument seems to be derived from a predetermined conclusion rather than from good reasoning.
Edit: I'll hop on the "gifts unban when?" train as well. Not only is it embarrassing to have gifts banned, but not Vampiric Tutor/Demonic Tutor, but Gifts is FUN!
Last edited by Dunadain 3 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.
Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada
Help me complete my JumpStart Cube!
Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada
Help me complete my JumpStart Cube!
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ISBPathfinder Bebopin
- Posts: 2186
- Joined: 5 years ago
- Pronoun: he / him
- Location: SD, USA
Balance is a problem because players play it optimally and the counterpalay is heavily towards counter magic. If Balance isn't played optimally its no different than someone casting Jokulhaups with no follow-up. It is true that there is a long and tedious game after that but that is only sometimes the case if the person taking advantage of Balance didn't do something like float mana before sacrificing all their lands to Zuran Orb (that literally used to be the combo of balance in other formats).
In the last six months I have been T2 killed by Oracle in a casual commander (non tourney casual commander setting). I believe I was playing some mono white casual deck at the time.
In the last six months I have been T2 killed by Oracle in a casual commander (non tourney casual commander setting). I believe I was playing some mono white casual deck at the time.
Last edited by ISBPathfinder 3 months ago, edited 2 times in total.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Kelzam
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Avacyn Believer Faith Requires Sacrifice
- Posts: 302
- Joined: 1 year ago
- Pronoun: he / him
- Location: Innistrad
- Contact:
Same. Whenever I read about MtG from "official" websites, it feels corporate and like they are trying to convince themselves as much as us. This read lot better.DirkGently wrote: ↑3 months agoSeems more aware of the state of the game and/or more candid than I would have expected. My expectations have raised somewhat.
"deluge of new cards" sumps up 2023 pretty well
"dig deep and play weird cards" loved this as well. Not running staples and decks full of "good cards" sure makes for fun games even today.
I'll chime in on Thoracle. I think there's some merit in banning it, but unlike some of the other cards cited, it doesn't make for miserable game states--it just ends the game miserably--and it requires (usually) some set-up to do its thing, and a minimum of casting 2 spells for , and presents an opportunity for a ready opponent to cause you to lose the game. Flash, for instance, requires only casting 1 spell for and has virtually 0 downside--if someone has interaction, you don't lose the game, you just move on to plan B (or plan A, where Flash-Hulk was plan B). Flash can also win the game before anyone has even started their turn, albeit that's magical Christmas land territory.
If someone plays Thoracle combo in casual, and didn't have to go through a number of hoops to get there, then I think that's more an issue of having a conversation than a banning. I've played against Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign decks that get to a depleted library and cast Thoracle (sometimes with 10+ cards in their deck still) for their win. I think that's kind of lame, but not ban-worthy.
I have a cEDH Yuriko deck (that I haven't touched in half a year, because cEDH sucks), where I've played Thoracle fairly numerous times to manipulate the top of my deck, provide a blocker, deploy a ninjutsu enabler...and scare everyone else at the table.
Looking at the flip side: does anyone play Demonic Consultation or Demonic Pact outside of their combos with Thoracle? It would be more cards, but I think the cheap/fast ways of emptying your library with a single card are more problematic.
If someone plays Thoracle combo in casual, and didn't have to go through a number of hoops to get there, then I think that's more an issue of having a conversation than a banning. I've played against Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign decks that get to a depleted library and cast Thoracle (sometimes with 10+ cards in their deck still) for their win. I think that's kind of lame, but not ban-worthy.
I have a cEDH Yuriko deck (that I haven't touched in half a year, because cEDH sucks), where I've played Thoracle fairly numerous times to manipulate the top of my deck, provide a blocker, deploy a ninjutsu enabler...and scare everyone else at the table.
Looking at the flip side: does anyone play Demonic Consultation or Demonic Pact outside of their combos with Thoracle? It would be more cards, but I think the cheap/fast ways of emptying your library with a single card are more problematic.
Sefris, Varina, Korvold Lands Ho!, Queen Marchesa, Aikido/Goad, Kadena, Tuvasa, Tymna & Tevesh Cleric Tribal, Ghired,
Prosper, Captain N'ghatrod, Sméagol, Frodo & Sam, Henzie, Sauron, the Dark Lord, Eowyn, Shieldmaiden, Galadriel of Lothlorien
Prosper, Captain N'ghatrod, Sméagol, Frodo & Sam, Henzie, Sauron, the Dark Lord, Eowyn, Shieldmaiden, Galadriel of Lothlorien
What argument is there for unbanning Gifts Ungiven? A 4 mana instant to find you A+B combo and 2 ways to recur whatever went to the yard, or 4 pieces of interaction to protect the combo you're already holding, just screams oppressive, repetitive gameplay to me.
Sefris, Varina, Korvold Lands Ho!, Queen Marchesa, Aikido/Goad, Kadena, Tuvasa, Tymna & Tevesh Cleric Tribal, Ghired,
Prosper, Captain N'ghatrod, Sméagol, Frodo & Sam, Henzie, Sauron, the Dark Lord, Eowyn, Shieldmaiden, Galadriel of Lothlorien
Prosper, Captain N'ghatrod, Sméagol, Frodo & Sam, Henzie, Sauron, the Dark Lord, Eowyn, Shieldmaiden, Galadriel of Lothlorien
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TheGildedGoose HONK HONK
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How is it any different than any number of obscene cards in the format?yeti1069 wrote: ↑3 months agoWhat argument is there for unbanning Gifts Ungiven? A 4 mana instant to find you A+B combo and 2 ways to recur whatever went to the yard, or 4 pieces of interaction to protect the combo you're already holding, just screams oppressive, repetitive gameplay to me.
Gifts is an interesting and fun card, full stop. Just because something can be absurd doesn't mean it's going to be, and there are plenty of fair uses for the card.
I don't know. Tutor for 4 cards for 4 mana seems incredibly broken to me.TheGildedGoose wrote: ↑3 months agoHow is it any different than any number of obscene cards in the format?yeti1069 wrote: ↑3 months agoWhat argument is there for unbanning Gifts Ungiven? A 4 mana instant to find you A+B combo and 2 ways to recur whatever went to the yard, or 4 pieces of interaction to protect the combo you're already holding, just screams oppressive, repetitive gameplay to me.
Gifts is an interesting and fun card, full stop. Just because something can be absurd doesn't mean it's going to be, and there are plenty of fair uses for the card.
Sefris, Varina, Korvold Lands Ho!, Queen Marchesa, Aikido/Goad, Kadena, Tuvasa, Tymna & Tevesh Cleric Tribal, Ghired,
Prosper, Captain N'ghatrod, Sméagol, Frodo & Sam, Henzie, Sauron, the Dark Lord, Eowyn, Shieldmaiden, Galadriel of Lothlorien
Prosper, Captain N'ghatrod, Sméagol, Frodo & Sam, Henzie, Sauron, the Dark Lord, Eowyn, Shieldmaiden, Galadriel of Lothlorien
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TheGildedGoose HONK HONK
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I think it's generally agreed that Intuition is the stronger card and it's not warping the format. I'm not arguing that Gifts is a weak card, I'm arguing that despite its power it has fun and interesting uses above and beyond being a combo piece.yeti1069 wrote: ↑3 months agoI don't know. Tutor for 4 cards for 4 mana seems incredibly broken to me.TheGildedGoose wrote: ↑3 months agoHow is it any different than any number of obscene cards in the format?yeti1069 wrote: ↑3 months agoWhat argument is there for unbanning Gifts Ungiven? A 4 mana instant to find you A+B combo and 2 ways to recur whatever went to the yard, or 4 pieces of interaction to protect the combo you're already holding, just screams oppressive, repetitive gameplay to me.
Gifts is an interesting and fun card, full stop. Just because something can be absurd doesn't mean it's going to be, and there are plenty of fair uses for the card.
I don't know, I don't buy it. I think I know what my first video is going to be.Gifts' low U investment makes it splashable, and the instant speed means you can use it at the most opportune time with lowered chance for countering or interaction. The ability to tutor for two combo pieces and two ways to recur them generally makes this a one-card game-ender, and even in the most casual play is a double tutor.
Why? Because Intuition is a mana cheaper? I think +1 mana for +1 card is a big upgrade. Also, Intuition is often essentially a 3-mana wincon. Gifts would increase the likelihood of being game winning significantly.TheGildedGoose wrote: ↑3 months agoI think it's generally agreed that Intuition is the stronger card and it's not warping the format. I'm not arguing that Gifts is a weak card, I'm arguing that despite its power it has fun and interesting uses above and beyond being a combo piece.yeti1069 wrote: ↑3 months agoI don't know. Tutor for 4 cards for 4 mana seems incredibly broken to me.TheGildedGoose wrote: ↑3 months agoHow is it any different than any number of obscene cards in the format?
Gifts is an interesting and fun card, full stop. Just because something can be absurd doesn't mean it's going to be, and there are plenty of fair uses for the card.
I don't know, I don't buy it. I think I know what my first video is going to be.Gifts' low U investment makes it splashable, and the instant speed means you can use it at the most opportune time with lowered chance for countering or interaction. The ability to tutor for two combo pieces and two ways to recur them generally makes this a one-card game-ender, and even in the most casual play is a double tutor.
Sefris, Varina, Korvold Lands Ho!, Queen Marchesa, Aikido/Goad, Kadena, Tuvasa, Tymna & Tevesh Cleric Tribal, Ghired,
Prosper, Captain N'ghatrod, Sméagol, Frodo & Sam, Henzie, Sauron, the Dark Lord, Eowyn, Shieldmaiden, Galadriel of Lothlorien
Prosper, Captain N'ghatrod, Sméagol, Frodo & Sam, Henzie, Sauron, the Dark Lord, Eowyn, Shieldmaiden, Galadriel of Lothlorien
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3drinks Kaalia's Personal Liaison
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Recurring Nightmare and G-Brand unban when? Don't give me that crap that G-Brand is busted when we can play a legal tutour that gets the exact card we want at a given time for 2 life and a sacrifice. 0 mana universal tutour > 0 mana random seven off the top. Full stop.
Nightmare is just fair, reasonable, old school magic. Okay it's hard to interact with (only on the stack unless you're bad and play it to sit on it). It still loses to graveyard hate like any other grave strategy. And I don't just advocate for it because I enjoyed it when I brought Alesha to Duel-Commander.
Nightmare is just fair, reasonable, old school magic. Okay it's hard to interact with (only on the stack unless you're bad and play it to sit on it). It still loses to graveyard hate like any other grave strategy. And I don't just advocate for it because I enjoyed it when I brought Alesha to Duel-Commander.
This only works when others do the same. When you play at the LGS because, like, you don't have a personal group, how on Earth can you expect to follow this when you know others are gunning for their A game? It's hard when you have no idea if you're gonna see the deck that loops dockside ad infinitum or the deck that just wants to grind into Value TownTM.Avacyn Believer wrote: ↑3 months ago"dig deep and play weird cards" loved this as well. Not running staples and decks full of "good cards" sure makes for fun games even today.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Modern
87guide Burn
87guide Burn
Commander
Kellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
Torbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
Alesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
Kaalia HQ
Kellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
Torbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
Alesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
Kaalia HQ
wut?
I mean, I understand that EDH is not perfectly equivalent to other formats, but Griselbrand is THE reanimation/Show and Tell target in both legacy and Vintage, while, as far as I know, Razaketh, the Foulblooded (I assume that's what your talking about?) sees no play in ANY format atm.
Griselbrand unbanning wouldn't be catastrophic, but Razaketh, the Foulblooded isn't even in the same league.
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.
Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada
Help me complete my JumpStart Cube!
Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada
Help me complete my JumpStart Cube!
unban gifts and make a rule allowing me to 1 slash tire per 1 minute a person spends searching their deck after the first 45 seconds.
Griselbrand - Yeah you can tutor any one card you want easily. But with gris you can have like 28 you might want any time easily too. I'm usually against banning cards for reason outside play experience (Ban top you cowards!) but I think if they were to unban Griselbrand, it would be a mistake
Griselbrand - Yeah you can tutor any one card you want easily. But with gris you can have like 28 you might want any time easily too. I'm usually against banning cards for reason outside play experience (Ban top you cowards!) but I think if they were to unban Griselbrand, it would be a mistake
- CommanderMaster999
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I like the explanation system but some can be questionable or weird
For example
That's why it's banned? All because of the blink/flicker decks in general? (If it didn't have that "leave" part it would have never been banned)
And doesn't Erayos exclamation fit for why Thassa's Oracle should be banned.
For example
[/quote]Decks that blink or bounce Sundering Titan can utilize its effect repeatedly, leading to an environment where it's nearly impossible for opponents to keep basic lands in play
That's why it's banned? All because of the blink/flicker decks in general? (If it didn't have that "leave" part it would have never been banned)
And doesn't Erayos exclamation fit for why Thassa's Oracle should be banned.
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ISBPathfinder Bebopin
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If Griselbrand wasn't a legend I wouldn't be half as concerned about him as I am. When you build a deck around him though its a lot easier to turn it into a mana burst sort of deck that tends to play storm / Ad Nausium fairly easily though. When you start looking at T1-3 consistant griselbrand who will draw them a new hand if not counterspelled it gets hard to really deal with that deck as they don't have to go all in but its really hard to out resource that kind of deck.
While there are a few banned cards I wouldn't mind removed I am far more for expanding the hell out of the banned list than I am shrinking it. I also think its wrong to not look at the reasons cards are and were banned and compare them to other cards. I know the RC doesn't want to do that but it makes sense to do it. Justifying bans makes sense to me but also that justification should be used to compare other problem cards in the format.
While there are a few banned cards I wouldn't mind removed I am far more for expanding the hell out of the banned list than I am shrinking it. I also think its wrong to not look at the reasons cards are and were banned and compare them to other cards. I know the RC doesn't want to do that but it makes sense to do it. Justifying bans makes sense to me but also that justification should be used to compare other problem cards in the format.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Kelzam
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DirkGently My wins are unconditional
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Demonitime Tutwister
Sorcery
Everybody shuffles their library and graveyard into their decks. Everybody else draws 7 cards. You search your library for a card, put it into your hand, and shuffle.
Hmmmmmm yeah I don't think I'd play that tbh xD
Also I mean...sacrificing a creature isn't free by any stretch.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan
Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan
Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I don't know about that. Razaketh needs some setup in bodies to sacrifice. G-B doesn't need any setup. Raz pays life, without any inherent way to offset that payment, while G-B can swing/block to refund the life payment if needed. Also, there's often little functional difference between tutoring for 1 or 2 cards, and drawing 35. Finally, while not a huge difference, 7 mana vs 8 mana in the command zone IS a difference when you're looking to turbo out a commander. Oh, and I don't recall seeing many Raz decks around/on EDHREC, whereas I know for sure I'd see some G-B helmed decks if it were unbanned.
Sefris, Varina, Korvold Lands Ho!, Queen Marchesa, Aikido/Goad, Kadena, Tuvasa, Tymna & Tevesh Cleric Tribal, Ghired,
Prosper, Captain N'ghatrod, Sméagol, Frodo & Sam, Henzie, Sauron, the Dark Lord, Eowyn, Shieldmaiden, Galadriel of Lothlorien
Prosper, Captain N'ghatrod, Sméagol, Frodo & Sam, Henzie, Sauron, the Dark Lord, Eowyn, Shieldmaiden, Galadriel of Lothlorien