[660+88][Commander] cryogen's Commander Cube

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cryogen
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Post by cryogen » 2 years ago

View on Cubetutor (don't because it's out of date)

Cube Size: 748 Cards
Breakdown: 88 Generals, 75 Each Color, 150 Gold (15 per guild), 135 Colorless. (All cards sorted by color identity)
Theme: EDH/Commander; slower games
# Players: Up to 8 players
How Often Drafted: Whenever

Cube Design
Standard or Multiplayer: Multiplayer (but you could always draft duel decks)
Sideboards?: Yes
Even Color Balance: Yes
Gold Balance: Yes
Hybrid/Split/Kicker as Gold: Yes
Color Triggers as Gold: Yes
Perfectly Balanced CMC: No
Snow Lands: Yes

Card Selection
Proxies: No
Powered: No, but I run some cards that are banned in Commander
"Un" Cards: No
Banned Cards for Power-Level: Nothing yet.

Draft Structure

Up to 8 players draft 3 packs of 20 cards consisting of 18 cube cards plus 2 seeded commanders. Structure is identical to Commander Legends draft. Players pick two cards at a time.

Deck Construction: 60 card deck (1 or 2 generals, 22-24 lands, 34-37 other cards) +1 General, Standard Color Identity Rules

Starting Life: 40/Player




Generals (88)
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Generals
Approximate Total Cost:

White Cards (75)
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White Cards

Artifacts (1)


Planeswalkers (1)


Approximate Total Cost:

Blue Cards (75)
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Blue Cards
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Black Cards (75)
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Black Cards

Artifacts (2)


Planeswalkers (1)


Approximate Total Cost:

Red Cards (75)
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Red Cards

Planeswalkers (1)


Approximate Total Cost:

Green Cards (75)
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Green Cards

Artifacts (2)


Planeswalkers (1)


Approximate Total Cost:

Black/Red (15)
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Colorless Cards (135)
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Colorless

Artifacts (78)


Enchantments (1)


Sorceries (1)


Approximate Total Cost:

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benjameenbear
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Post by benjameenbear » 2 years ago

Have you found Leovold, Emissary of Trest to be too broken as a Commander choice? It was banned as a Commander in regular EDH, so I'm curious as to why it's in your Cube or if you've found it to be fair.

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cryogen
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Post by cryogen » 2 years ago

I don't recall if anyone has drafted him yet. The goal of the cube is to do broken things and play broken and banned cards (without explicitly breaking them). You'd have a pretty difficult time drafting wheels.dec so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. So far Karakas is the only card I cut for being horrible to play against.
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Jivanmukta
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Post by Jivanmukta » 2 years ago

I think some Un-cards could be as fun if not more than some of the EDH banned cards you already allow.
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cryogen
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Post by cryogen » 2 years ago

Jivanmukta wrote:
2 years ago
I think some Un-cards could be as fun if not more than some of the EDH banned cards you already allow.
I seriously considered Un cards, but I just don't see any that I wanted to run. I di have a stack of planeswalkers that I want to include and retool the cube as one where you can optionally draft them as commanders.
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Jivanmukta
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Post by Jivanmukta » 2 years ago

There are definitely some walkers that could make for some great decks/games.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

I'm working on a cube and had a few questions:

-how has colour balance been? Do people actually play RW at a similar rate to, say, UG?
-150 is a lot of colourless artifacts, even artifact synergy sets like kaladesh have a lower as-fan for artifacts. Was that intentional, and how has it impacted the draft?
-how has the fixing been?
-do you deal out all 68 commanders, or am I misreading? How have you found that method to be? Any commanders that show up too frequently? I was thinking of 100 commanders, but packs of 5 so the same options aren't always available.
-did you build any intentional themes into the cube, or just top commander cards?
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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cryogen
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Post by cryogen » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
I'm working on a cube and had a few questions:
Sure thing! I really haven't been able to draft it in quite some time, and I have at least a year's worth of cards to try and find room for, but I'll give it a shot.
-how has colour balance been? Do people actually play RW at a similar rate to, say, UG?
Pretty much what you'd expect in regular Commander. All the colors are evenly represented, so random distribution is going to determine what colors show up in the actual draft. But in terms of actual play rate, the "weaker" colors tend to get drafted less. Ideally this will be less of a problem as Wizards makes those colors weaker.
-150 is a lot of colourless artifacts, even artifact synergy sets like kaladesh have a lower as-fan for artifacts. Was that intentional, and how has it impacted the draft?
This wasn't entirely intentional, and it also wasn't something I've looked for in terms of impacting the draft. To the best of my recollection it hasn't felt like it skews things. My goal was to ensure that players would have enough mana fixing, have options for padding a weak draft, and also to have sources of colorless mana for the few Eldrazi cards which require colorless mana.
-how has the fixing been?
No complaints so far.
-do you deal out all 68 commanders, or am I misreading? How have you found that method to be? Any commanders that show up too frequently? I was thinking of 100 commanders, but packs of 5 so the same options aren't always available.
Each player gets five packs of 15 cards: 14 cards from the 900 and one "Commander" card from the 68. Since I at least 10% of the 900 cube are legendary creatures as well, there has never been a problem getting a general and building a deck. I think one time a player was worried that they would have to do a generic general (such as a 3/3 for 3 BUG if you tried building a Sultai deck but didn't draft a general), but they ended up getting a deck in the end.
-did you build any intentional themes into the cube, or just top commander cards?
Sort of. Obviously I started with all the staples and broken cards, followed by all the banned cards which work in a draft format because you're not building around them exclusively or they are just broken. Then I tried to pick Commanders which supported different or multiple archetypes so you weren't just chosing between three different generals that all did the same thing (with varied success at that). After the staples and banned cards were added to the cube, I used the remaining space for cards which supported multiple archetypes and random cards that scream Commander and don't get played normally (like Baton of Morale. The only other theme I tried to force into the cube was Stax.
[/quote]
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Thanks Cryo!
cryogen wrote:
2 years ago
Pretty much what you'd expect in regular Commander. All the colors are evenly represented, so random distribution is going to determine what colors show up in the actual draft. But in terms of actual play rate, the "weaker" colors tend to get drafted less. Ideally this will be less of a problem as Wizards makes those colors weaker.
Have you tried either boosting the power of the weaker color cards, or omitting powerful cards from the more popular colors to compensate - maybe even leaving out strong commanders to reduce the likelihood of people forcing the colors in order to play, say, a Muldrotha that they opened?
cryogen wrote:
2 years ago
Each player gets five packs of 15 cards: 14 cards from the 900 and one "Commander" card from the 68. Since I at least 10% of the 900 cube are legendary creatures as well, there has never been a problem getting a general and building a deck. I think one time a player was worried that they would have to do a generic general (such as a 3/3 for 3 BUG if you tried building a Sultai deck but didn't draft a general), but they ended up getting a deck in the end.
Huh, ok, the OP really reads as though you're drafting separate all-commander packs at the start (which is what I was planning to do). Have you tried/considered drafting that way?

My concern about weaving them into packs is that it could be a lot harder to synergize around your commander if you might not have one until a later pack. I figured drafting them first would mean you know which directions you can draft towards - both in terms of color combinations and synergies. Which would let people have more synergistic decks, ideally.

A few other questions I forgot:

4/5 color commanders - how have those panned out for you? Do people tend to play them when they get them, or are they less popular because of fixing considerations? I'm a little nervous that they could create situations where someone commits to one and then starts scooping up a lot of fixing, cutting off other players (I have bad memories of that sort of thing happening during KTK limited, lol).

How'd you end up at 65 card decks (instead of, say, 60)?
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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cryogen
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Post by cryogen » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Thanks Cryo!
cryogen wrote:
2 years ago
Pretty much what you'd expect in regular Commander. All the colors are evenly represented, so random distribution is going to determine what colors show up in the actual draft. But in terms of actual play rate, the "weaker" colors tend to get drafted less. Ideally this will be less of a problem as Wizards makes those colors weaker.
Have you tried either boosting the power of the weaker color cards, or omitting powerful cards from the more popular colors to compensate - maybe even leaving out strong commanders to reduce the likelihood of people forcing the colors in order to play, say, a Muldrotha that they opened?
cryogen wrote:
2 years ago
Each player gets five packs of 15 cards: 14 cards from the 900 and one "Commander" card from the 68. Since I at least 10% of the 900 cube are legendary creatures as well, there has never been a problem getting a general and building a deck. I think one time a player was worried that they would have to do a generic general (such as a 3/3 for 3 BUG if you tried building a Sultai deck but didn't draft a general), but they ended up getting a deck in the end.
Huh, ok, the OP really reads as though you're drafting separate all-commander packs at the start (which is what I was planning to do). Have you tried/considered drafting that way?

My concern about weaving them into packs is that it could be a lot harder to synergize around your commander if you might not have one until a later pack. I figured drafting them first would mean you know which directions you can draft towards - both in terms of color combinations and synergies. Which would let people have more synergistic decks, ideally.

A few other questions I forgot:

4/5 color commanders - how have those panned out for you? Do people tend to play them when they get them, or are they less popular because of fixing considerations? I'm a little nervous that they could create situations where someone commits to one and then starts scooping up a lot of fixing, cutting off other players (I have bad memories of that sort of thing happening during KTK limited, lol).

How'd you end up at 65 card decks (instead of, say, 60)?
I have not tried nerfing the stronger colors, because I really want to be able to have insane and broken games. The generals are more easier to balance, but again my goal was to give each color options (generically an aggro general, a control general, and a midrange or "other"), as well as making each general something unique that you'd want to draft and require some build around. The generic generals are in the cube itself because they are the ones that play just as well in the 99 as in the Command zone.

Oh, yeah. I originally did a Commander booster followed by regular booster. Never had an issue with either method at some point I just switched to the seeding method and haven't looked back. Seeding also makes it easier for drafting. Beforehand I will take Ultrapro team bags and put the entire cube into booster packs. That way when it is time to draft I can just hand out packs instead of counting out stacks of 15 right then.

Haven't seen muchn4/5 color yet. I know Saskia and Yidris have been drafted off the top of my head, but I want to say someone did 5 color once. The dual lands never get drafted high and there is lots of fixing, so hitting colors shouldn't be a problem.

I think Galspanic and Wildfire were doing 65+1 and I just copied them.
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Post by schweinefett » 1 year ago

One thing that's made my powered cube (non-edh) awesome is ante cards. In cube, I generally make it a Swiss tournament thing, so ante cards can actually work. There's only a handful of actual playable ones, but it could be interesting.

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cryogen
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Post by cryogen » 1 year ago

schweinefett wrote:
1 year ago
One thing that's made my powered cube (non-edh) awesome is ante cards. In cube, I generally make it a Swiss tournament thing, so ante cards can actually work. There's only a handful of actual playable ones, but it could be interesting.
Well once my house is back in order and I'm able to have friends over more frequently, I've thought about trying to do Rochester draft format where after decks are drafted and built everything goes back into the pool to be redrafted.

The ante cards could be good, since some of them are very powerful.
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bobthefunny
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Post by bobthefunny » 1 year ago

I remember you having Deal Broker and that red creature that does stuff with drafted cards that aren't in your deck - were there any other draft matters cards? Have you considered adding Conspiracies?

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cryogen
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Post by cryogen » 1 year ago

bobthefunny wrote:
1 year ago
I remember you having Deal Broker and that red creature that does stuff with drafted cards that aren't in your deck - were there any other draft matters cards? Have you considered adding Conspiracies?
I believe I looked at them initially but ultimately opted to not add any. It's also possible that I very briefly added one or two of them (in fact i think maybe a white one) and quickly removed them.
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