MAY 2023 QUARTERLY UPDATE

[Hermes_]

very short: No changes

slightly longer:

No changes.

We're generally very happy with the state of Commander at the moment. We wanted to wait for the release of Aftermath to make sure there wasn't anything of concern in it, but it looks good and we're excited for all the new toys that March of the Machine has provided.

We're particularly interested in seeing how Battles play out in Commander, where the multiplayer dynamics should have some interesting impact on their usage. Throw them in decks and let us know how it goes.

Poison was raised as a concern after all the new Toxic and Proliferate cards in All Will Be One, so we kept an eye on it for a bit, We don't feel that it significantly altered the landscape for poison and don't have plans to make any adjustments. It remains a mechanic that is sometimes good at taking out one person, but struggles to take down an entire table.

We will have an announcement day with The Lord of the Rings. Traditionally we've made announcements the week before the release of Standard-legal sets, and LotR isn't one, but it's a significant set in the calendar cycle (with an accompanying MagicCon) which leads to an expectation that there'll be one, so we'll be back in mid-June with another update. Until then, enjoy March of the Machine!

[Treamayne]

slightly longer:

No changes.

We're generally very happy with the state of Commander at the moment. We wanted to wait for the release of Aftermath to make sure there wasn't anything of concern in it, but it looks good and we're excited for all the new toys that March of the Machine has provided the format to push out casual players that don't want competitive optimization for a while and WotC has made significant steps forward in this regard.

FTFY

[Vertierer]

Unban Recurring Nightmare, it isn't stronger than all the fast mana, tutors and other pushed s**t in the format.

[3drinks]

It's a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.

[toctheyounger]

It's a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.

They gotta be seen to be saying something. But yeah.

God I want Gifts Ungiven. One day they'll loosen up.

[3drinks]

All I want is G-Brand. It's not worse than what the format already is. I'll accept Recurring Nightmare as a consolation prize, but G-Brand is perfectly fair and reasonable Magic.

[Venedrex]

T1 : Swamp, Sol Ring, Arcane Signet.

T2: Swamp, do whatever you feel like.

T3: Use dark ritual, Play Grisel, put most of deck into hand

T4: Win game.

Thanks I'm good.

In all seriousness though, I don't understand why people want more oops I win cards in the format. Gifts ungiven is a recipe for on your end step I find my 4 combo pieces, you give me two of the four then I win on my turn. Coalition Victory might be janky, but it's an out of nowhere games over guys haha didn't you see that coming that everyone despises. I dunno, I don't get the desire to make games end more abruptly and more unexpectedly.

Personally, I think any card that says "You win the game", should require a full turn cycle. At least then you have to setup with flash or a good boardstate.

Hmm, lets see, I will Gifts ungiven for Underworld Breach, Regrowth, Thassa's Oracle, and Consultation. Whatever choice you make, I win, presuming no interaction.

Why can't we unban some fun a cool card that actually makes games interesting, like Duelist's Heritage. Oh wait, it's because the banned cards got banned because they aren't cool or fun or unique. They are just bad designs. When was the last time Wizard's printed a Gift's Ungiven card? Or a card that wins you the game the turn you play it. Oh right, Thassa's Oracle. One of the more hated cards in EDH. Yeah, I'm good with none of the banned cards ever seeing play.

I just don't understand why we want to dig up the mistakes of the past and bring them out for another generation to suffer. How about we just, you know, make new cards that aren't broken in half and do cool and fun things instead of dredging up design mistakes.

I have heard complaint after complaint here and on numerous sites about how the format is speeding up. So the answer is to add more oops I win cards to the format? I am sure you all have good intentions. But the vast majority of players don't. Take Golos for instance. Does DirkGently and some other people on this site have a cool take him? Absolutely.

But unfortunately, the four people with Sorrow's Path Golos don't match up with the 10000 people with ALL GOODSTUFF FIVE COLOR SOUP SOUPITY SOUP. So while I'm sorry we lost the four decks that were legit and unique. I'm thrilled I don't have to play against a massively aggravating, "Oh it's not CEDH it's just incredibly broken at the top of casual five color my commander dodges tax nonsense.

Would the people who want Gifts Ungiven unbanned use it a fun way? Maybe, I guess? But at my LGS, it would just be another card I get the pleasure of losing to in the hands of the guy who plays "its not CEDH Jin Gitaxias with every mana accelerant and extra turn spell pubstomper." Or the not quite pubstomper but Temur goodstuff player now has a busted tutor to go with their dockside, cyc rift, and Urza.

So yeah, that's going to be a no from me.

[toctheyounger]

I mean like Intuition is already legal. And in the case of Gris, Krrik can easily win t1. It's not like we're stopping fast wins, they're already here. Tbh even Vilis is bordering on as good as Gris.

[Venedrex]

I mean like Intuition is already legal. And in the case of Gris, Krrik can easily win t1. It's not like we're stopping fast wins, they're already here. Tbh even Vilis is bordering on as good as Gris.

I mean Intuition is also a cool 163 dollars. Which might explain why I've never seen it played online or in person. Also, my point wasn't saying we don't have fast wins, it's saying why add more? There are a billion ways to win, why do we want Gris? Who is going to play Griselbrand in a way that is fun and enjoyable and not just draw most of my deck and win. At least Villis has the decency to cost more mana and require some setup.

[Treamayne]

So yeah, that's going to be a no from me.

I took most of the "unban X" comments to be sarcasm pointing out the hypocrisy of the RC saying "Everything's good" when we have X banned, but A, B, C, etc. are all still unbanned and equally annoying.

[DirkGently]

@Venedrex I don't really get why you'd put gifts into the same bucket as cards that do something inherently. Gbrand will generally win the game, sure. But a tutor is only as good as the targets. Tutoring into consult oracle is obnoxious, sure, but someone playing that deck is going to build a deck that's 99.9% as obnoxious without gifts. Gifts into 2 regrowths + 2 combo pieces also costs 7 mana to combo (11 total) and adds grave hate to the list of viable disruption. It would be cheaper and less vulnerable to cast Insidious Dreams eot for your combo pieces + Divination or whatever, and I don't think anyone gives a crap about insidious dreams, or at least nobody is talking about the banlist for it. You're freaking yourself out over nothing.

It sounds like the actual issue is that you've got meta problems. May I offer you a Phelddagrif in this trying time?

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I mean like Intuition is already legal. And in the case of Gris, Krrik can easily win t1. It's not like we're stopping fast wins, they're already here. Tbh even Vilis is bordering on as good as Gris.

I mean Intuition is also a cool 163 dollars. Which might explain why I've never seen it played online or in person. Also, my point wasn't saying we don't have fast wins, it's saying why add more? There are a billion ways to win, why do we want Gris? Who is going to play Griselbrand in a way that is fun and enjoyable and not just draw most of my deck and win. At least Villis has the decency to cost more mana and require some setup.

In general, I agree with your overall point. Most of the cards banned are not actually things I really want to play with or against. Especially G-Brand, holy %$#% I remember when he first came out, for about a month everyone and their mother were playing MBC OTK like it made them special, pretty, and cool (it, in fact, did not.) That bastard can stay banned forever and a day if only as a eternal punishment for that %$#% month.

But money shouldn't be a factor imo. The 163 dollar price barrier isn't why Intuition should be legal. Either it's the same as Gifts and eats a ban, or gifts is the same as it and gets unbanned. I don't think it's very sensible or fair as a practice to say that those with 163 discretionary dollars can functionally subvert the banlist. And I say that as someone who used to own 2 of the dang things (each post RL spike).

[pokken]

As a connoisseur of Intuition I can confirm that Gifts Ungiven would be fine. I have *three frigging intuition decks now because I can't stop*. They're all fine.

I think it'd be kinda nice for there to be a budget option for that effect; a lot of super fun Varina shenanigans are $$$ gated because of Intuition being RL. That's probably the biggest draw for me.

In general I'd like them to get rid of some more of those dated bans at some point; Recurring Nightmare in particular is a card whose time has come and gone. The game is just too damn efficient and there's way too much graveyard hate these days. I feel like I get randomly Bojuka Bog'd out of the game all the time nowadays, and people are even playing Scavenging Ooze. I spent an entire game playing around a frigging Deadeye Tracker once recently lol

I'm even on the fence bout Primeval Titan in a world where Cultivator Colossus is printed and it's not a joke.

[RedCheese]

Ban Dockside you COWARDS!!

[PrimevalCommander]

I'm even on the fence bout Primeval Titan in a world where Cultivator Colossus is printed and it's not a joke.

Now we are getting somewhere. I didn't want to be the first one to advocate for my buddy PT. With Nyxbloom Ancient in the wild, is there any practical limit to how much mana a 6+ mana green creature is allowed to produce? PT for Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Cabal Coffers now just looks worst than casting Nyxbloom Ancient. Outside from the mana being independent from the creature of course. I say this as the single biggest abuser of PT when it was legal. Totally non-biased opinion

I'm picking up $0.25 copies of Gifts Ungiven here and there because one day I'm sure it will come off. As mentioned, grave hate is so flexible and useful nowadays, opportunity cost to run it is lower than ever.

I don't like that they left Thoracle in the format. Nothing with a mana cost should ever say "win the game" unless it says "lose the game" right in front of it. Even something like : Lose the game, if you didn't lose, you win the game. is STILL able to combo with Angel's Grace which is a testament to how dumb printing "win the game" is on a card that low of mana value.

[TheGildedGoose]

Gifts Ungiven is one of the coolest cards in Magic and I don't care that it betters decks that were already annoying. It should be legal.

[pokken]

Ban Dockside you COWARDS!!

At this point I love that Dockside Extortionist craps on fast mana and cheap draw enchantments so bad. Nothing I like more than making someone sac all their stored treasures because I'm gonna go nuts with dockside And punishing Rhystic Study dinks.

A lot of the high end game is way too reliant on the strategy of "vomit my hand with mana rocks and then rely on a static draw piece to catch me back up on cards." I love watching those derps get blown out by a massive dockside.

Almost as much as I love Hour of Revelation'ing everyone in the same situation.

[Hermes_]

Almost as much as I love Hour of Revelation'ing everyone in the same situation.

[3drinks]

To those opposed to G-Brand, is it really that much more offensive than Razaketh? I speak in terms of Kaalia, where yeah I did get to use it for that one month it was legal. yeah I did get to draw35 the one time to find both Avacyn and Armageddon with a Kaalia trigger on the stack. And that feels like it's ceiling. This was 2011. The game has changed so much since then, so so so much, answers are more efficient, even the way the game is played is more streamlined. Is G-Brand a good reanimate or sneak attack target? Sure. Is it hands down the best? No.

7 life for a random 7 cards is worse than 2 life and a sac for your best card. Either ban Razaketh (which I'm fine with), or unban G-Brand.

[pokken]

To those opposed to G-Brand, is it really that much more offensive than Razaketh?

The main things that kept coming up in the griz vs. raz discussion:
* raz requires a board state
* tutoring is generally more competitive than drawing, so raz has less casual appeal
* griz self-supports with lifelink to an extent

(and to a lesser extent watching people try to win after drawing 35 is annoying)

personally I'd be fine with both of them being banned, but I'd be fine with most of the "Oh hey I have 8 mana I guess I win unless you have countermagic" effects being banned (including Expropriate and Craterhoof Behemoth).

Things that don't die to removal but win the game are really problematic.

[ISBPathfinder]

While I think there are things on the banned list that could be removed I am far more interested in expanding the banned list. Its true that there isn't anything new that is breaking the format above and beyond how it was before but we need to cut heavily into the degenerate fast mana generation and cheap wincons. This however is more of a competitive than casual issue and thus the RC has decided its not a pressing problem.

These cheap value packed cards and cheap wincons trickle down and ruin experiences. They are a problem and I want them pulled up by the roots. I could easily come up with 10 cards that I would ban and essentially all of them are related to winning the game or generating mana cheaply. Dockside and Thassa's Oracle both need to go but thats just the tip of the issue. Start with those but that is not the end of our problem.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

To those opposed to G-Brand, is it really that much more offensive than Razaketh? I speak in terms of Kaalia, where yeah I did get to use it for that one month it was legal. yeah I did get to draw35 the one time to find both Avacyn and Armageddon with a Kaalia trigger on the stack. And that feels like it's ceiling. This was 2011. The game has changed so much since then, so so so much, answers are more efficient, even the way the game is played is more streamlined. Is G-Brand a good reanimate or sneak attack target? Sure. Is it hands down the best? No.

7 life for a random 7 cards is worse than 2 life and a sac for your best card. Either ban Razaketh (which I'm fine with), or unban G-Brand.

To me, this rings as hollow as someone arguing for a Prophet of Kruphix unban so they can add some oomph to their casual bant flash pile. The floor of a card is unimportant when the degeneracy of the ceiling is so unpleasant (and for the record, the ceiling was waaaaay higher in that month than drawing into mld and way closer to a psuedo-contemporary krrik deck IIRC). Removal doesn't stop either of them btw; for prophet you dump your hand in response and for Grisel you draw a trillion. Razadad is also annoying, but at least he doesn't feed himself in the mean time.

EDIT: just to add to my point, there's even more fast mana available now to dump a big dumb demon than there was in 2011, so an unban might not just be ill-advised, but catastrophic. Who actually wants to play against that?

[toctheyounger]

Ban Dockside you COWARDS!!

At one point in time I'd have agreed, and that time wasn't that long ago. But the card, in most cases, is actually relatively fairer than it seems at first blush.

At a casual level it's not exactly breaking open the coffers. Predominantly, you'll see some signets and talismans, sure, but there's a ton of dorks and land ramp because green is just a bigger part of that environment. As well as this, there are less avenues you can take to actually win on the spot, or ham up the ETB. There's not none, sure, but the chances of it going right off are fewer.

At the high end of the format people are looking to go off anyway. And @pokken is right, it punishes turbo decks hard for running Crypts, Vaults, Monoliths and Moxen. It's probably the best card in that side of the format, and in a weird way it sort of does a lot of work to keep things fairly balanced there. If it weren't there, we'd probably not have a raft of archetypes that are actually fairly interesting, and we'd almost certainly be in a place where Blue Farm and Grixis turbo decks are just truly dominating. It's not the determining factor, but it keeps fast decks in check by threatening to bust the game open in retaliation.

It's a weird place to be, and there's no doubt that the card is strong, but for all of it's lack of subtlety in design I actually think it balances mostly ok around the meta it gets played in.

[Venedrex]

@Venedrex I don't really get why you'd put gifts into the same bucket as cards that do something inherently. Gbrand will generally win the game, sure. But a tutor is only as good as the targets. Tutoring into consult oracle is obnoxious, sure, but someone playing that deck is going to build a deck that's 99.9% as obnoxious without gifts. Gifts into 2 regrowths + 2 combo pieces also costs 7 mana to combo (11 total) and adds grave hate to the list of viable disruption. It would be cheaper and less vulnerable to cast Insidious Dreams eot for your combo pieces + Divination or whatever, and I don't think anyone gives a crap about insidious dreams, or at least nobody is talking about the banlist for it. You're freaking yourself out over nothing.

It sounds like the actual issue is that you've got meta problems. May I offer you a Phelddagrif in this trying time?

Well, I wouldn't say I'm freaking out. Also insidious dreams requires you to discard cards and puts the cards on top of your library, which is far worse than putting them into your hand. Also, both of these cards are instant. Which means you do them on the end step and then win the game on your actual turn. So 11 mana is not really 11 when it is 4 on someone else's end step and seven on yours. Which isn't hard when you play any mana ramp.

If you think Insidious dreams is as good as Gifts Ungiven, I have a divination to trade you for a consecrated sphinx.

Also, from a non combo perspective, why do we want casual players having another tool to eliminate the fun singleton nature of the format. All tutors do is make games more stale, whether you grab a combo or just some bleh value engine or more casual win condition. Isn't one of the number one complaints about EDH how tutors are making games worse and people are actively trying to run less of them to make games more fun?

And before you say, it's a fun game, I don't think giving my opponent two of the four best cards in their deck is a fun game. And putting the two actual best cards in their deck into their graveyard also doesn't sound fun, because we all know that the graveyard is a second hand for many decks.

So why add another one?

Also, no offense, but saying meta problems like it is an insult seems weird coming from a dude who has an ongoing storyline about how terrible his meta is. May I offer you a primer in finding playgroups in this trying time?

Tell you what, I'll build your Pheldagriff deck, budget constraints abiding, if you document finding a playgroup that is on an even footing with your skills. I'll make posts about building and playing it too. Also, I'll issue another challenge, let's house rule unban Gifts Ungiven in all our playgroups of everyone in this thread and report what happens. Let's test it. It only costs a couple quarters, let's give it a shot!

Heck, this is pretty skewed in your favor too, since we will be drawing from a small sample size of people who are Pro unbanning.

[toctheyounger]

Also, from a non combo perspective, why do we want casual players having another tool to eliminate the fun singleton nature of the format. All tutors do is make games more stale, whether you grab a combo or just some bleh value engine or more casual win condition. Isn't one of the number one complaints about EDH how tutors are making games worse and people are actively trying to run less of them to make games more fun?

And before you say, it's a fun game, I don't think giving my opponent two of the four best cards in their deck is a fun game.

So why add another one?

I don't personally think this is the sort of card that casual players will even look to turn to, personally. It comes with a bit of a skill test on both sides and involves a level of brewing that most casual players are not really going to commit to; frankly, you don't run it unless you have specific lines you want to play, and by that merit it pretty much is only going to see play at like high power to cedh tables, I'd be very surprised to see it at a lower level, outside of pubstomping and we don't enable that. If casuals want this sort of effect, they already have it. And that's a great card in it's own right.

The thing about fun is it means different things to different people. Personally, I'd love it in the format to enable my Varina build to do more, because there's no way my wallet stretches to Intuition. It's the sort of card that would have a variety of applications, and yes, most of them are probably degenerate, but probably not all. Some people enjoy that, some people don't, as long as those don't mix we're all good, baby.

My personal thoughts are I'd love to see it unbanned for some of the same reasons you'd like it to stay banned. I think you've gotta give people the benefit of the doubt to use it respectfully. By which I mean don't bring a gun to a knife fight. Yes, it's strong, yes it will enable combos, but at this point keeping those out of the format is a fool's errand, and I don't think it's the sort of card that's really going to yuck anyone's yum. I know it's not a direct comparison, but in terms of power level, Protean Hulk has been around the last few years now, and that thing literally only combos. I don't see it at casual tables ever. I think this is a similar card in that you know exactly what you're doing with it, and if you're being irresponsible with it and making people miserable that's on the brewer, not the card.

This is all kind of irrelevant anyway, as far as I know this card isn't even on the radar to enter the format again.