Unreleased and New Card Discussion

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 507
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

vandertroll wrote:
1 year ago
On a first glance I find the Companion mechanic a totally unecessary new layer of complexity (as I wrote in the rules post). Some of the mutate cards are cool but the mechanic itself is a little.. clunky? Can you treat it like an aura,like an equipment, like something that blinks (if you mutate many times)? Will be terrible when trying to track creatures in 4 player pods.
I wonder about that. If they are the same creature now, blinking one would logically blink the whole pile (almost like phasing).

User avatar
Mookie
Posts: 1602
Joined: 1 year ago
Answers: 20
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: the æthereal plane

Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Lots of interesting stuff being revealed. They usually start off with the splashier things, so not entirely surprised there, but still, it's a good start.

Mechanics:

Cycling - returning once again. I don't see cycling cards played that often - they tend to be a bit overpriced, and the flexibility of being able to cash in a situational card isn't quite as valuable in constructed, where you can just play a non-situational card instead. Still, good stuff for Astral Slide decks.

Keyword counters - cool mechanic, headache for bookkeeping. I can't imagine tracking these with normal counters, and I don't want to carry around punchcards with me. I don't think the mechanic is that powerful inherently (although granting deathtouch has some interesting implications), but it can be fun to pile a bunch of keywords on something.

Mutate - reminds me of Bestow. It's pretty weird, and hard to evaluate. Again, I don't think it's super powerful, but could be some interesting synergies. 'Whenever this creature mutates' triggers are super parasitic though - I don't expect we'll have enough cards available for this to be relevant in EDH, but we'll see...

Companion - this mechanic is very, very powerful - starting with an extra card you can cast from outside the game, assuming you've built your deck around it? This essentially provides a second commander, or a slightly weaker Partner (since you can't recast it from the command zone). A bit weird that they're allowing it, given that sideboards don't exist (and I'm sure this will flare up that discussion again >.>). Still, remains to be seen whether the restrictions make the extra card worth it - EDH's card pool is deep enough that it's possible to build around pretty much any restriction, but that doesn't mean a restricted deck will be fully functional.

Cards:

Vadrok, Apex of Thunder - casting a spell for free from your graveyard? This sounds perfectly fair and reasonable. Could be good played fairly to replay stuff over the course of the game, but I imagine there is some nonsense you could do. Triggering off mutation instead of ETB / casting makes it much more difficult to abuse though.

Lutri, the Spellchaser - otter! But banned. If it weren't, it would be an instant snap-include in literally every Izzet deck due to not actually having an actual deckbuilding restriction. Ignoring the Companion ability, it still would be very strong just based off the Dualcaster Mage ability, even if it only hits your own spells.

Gyruda, Doom of Depths - Yennet, Cryptic Sovereign's antithesis. ETB reanimation is very strong, although only hitting from the cards that were milled makes it much less consistent. Does look sweet though - note that it can hit your opponents' creatures, so you could do some stuff to put creatures on top of their owners' decks. Could be worth running in the 99.

Luminous Broodmoth - did someone say d-double d-dipping? :D Snap include in Teysa. (speaking of which, I still need to hunt down a Nightmare Shepherd...) Card looks awesome in aristocrats/sacrifice decks. Also somewhat interesting as boardwipe protection, or if you have a way to flicker creatures to remove the counter. Don't think I'd run it in Brago (I have too many fliers), but it's intriguing.

Zilortha, Strength Incarnate - Doran, the Siege Tower's antithesis. Only affects your creatures, but certainly interesting.

Vivien, Monsters' Advocate - Garruk's Horde // mini-Wild Pair? Hmmm... Tutoring creatures into play is pretty strong, as is the future sight ability. A bit expensive though - 5 mana means you usually won't get the tutor off until the following turn.

Lukka, Coppercoat Outcast - again, tutoring stuff into play is pretty strong. Polymorph that only goes up in size is interesting - I suspect most Polymorph decks are already only running payoffs, but this makes it a bit easier to fit into random decks. Draw 3 as a +1 is also a lot, even if you do need to have Lukka out.

Illuna, Apex of Wishes - more ways to cheat stuff out? Anyway, a bit generic, but interesting.

Keruga, the Macrosage - a bit generic in payoff, but potentially a lot of card draw.

The revealed C20 commanders don't particularly excite me - they look perfectly reasonable if you want to build a cycling / keyword soup / spellslinging / human/token aggro / mutate deck, but being three colors (and rather specialized) makes it hard to put them in an existing deck.

User avatar
bobthefunny
Resident Plainswalker
Posts: 417
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by bobthefunny » 1 year ago

SocorroTortoise wrote:
1 year ago
That's kind of my point. Even if I don't play anything with the mechanic, having someone across the table representing a dozen keyword abilities with different colored glass beads means I need to be aware of how they're tracking it and remember it, or constantly ask about their board state rather than understand with a glance. It's worse if the person across the table doesn't have a consistent system, or if it's different from the one you're used to. Commander board states are already complex and increasing the number of types of counters you can see in a game by an order of magnitude significantly adds to that complexity. We're also getting a powerful general using the ability in the precons, Kathril, Aspect Warper, which more or less guarantees that it's going to be a regular feature at tables for a while.

Mutate is more in line with auras and equipment in terms of bookeeping, which isn't as bad. My only real concern there is the strong incentive to repeatedly mutate one creature to take advantage of abilities that trigger on mutation, something that's potentially annoying to track depending on the complexity of the abilities involved. I'm guessing that it's going to play similarly to voltron in reality. Either the creature gets removed before it's truly problematic (most common) or it snowballs into enough advantage that the complete list of abilities is less relevant.

There are certainly ways to track it and it's not going to be bad if you're the one playing the deck, at least after a couple games. I'll withhold judgment until the comprehensive rules are updated and I see how things actually play. I still can't shake the feeling that these all feel like abilities designed for a digital platform that were translated into paper rather than the other way around, which I think is a first and something I'm not thrilled about.
That's already a thing with tokens though. Some people use coins. Some use dice. Is the '3' on that green d6 showing that it's a 3/3 beast, or that there are 3 beasts? Some use the actual token cards provided. Some people use whatever is in their pocket. Some people use the provided snacks on the table (I once attacked with 3 starburst and a twix!). And all that for only 'basic' tokens. When you add copied creature tokens to the mix, you DO have a whole suite of abilities to remember.

On top of that, you have the Cairn Wanderer, Death mask Duplicant, Rayami, First of the Fallen, Soulflayer, etc, who can all have a smorgasboard of abilities. Sure, they all have ways to update or check their abilities, but when it's on the field, you probably do need a way to remember "Does this have flying right now?" and so on.

I'll admit I underestimated the number of counters involved for the abilities - Looks like there will be more than a few per color, and I generally dislike the paper punch out provided tokens... I'm sure that many people will indulge in 3d printed tokens, or metal coin tokens (I remember seeing some for amonkhet), or even nice acrylic pieces the way many boardgame luxury sets are doing.

Worst case, a piece of paper or post-it and adding the written keywords will be fine.

I see Mutate working much the same way. A lot of it will only be adding keywords once the relevant triggers are past, so if the stack gets too large, I can see just stacking the keyword only cards in a non-visible manner and simply adding a paper on top saying "this has vigilance", etc. Again, I already see this to an extent with Bruna, Uril, or anything else that stacks a hefty amount of auras/equipment onto something. Mutate doesn't bother me at all.

It certainly is more tracking for a paper game, but I think this is in part due to general board game complexity being accepted at a higher level, and the fact that they can now provide tokens/counters in the packs which helps keep it more visibly oriented, which allows them to up the complexity in a natural manner. Keyword counters do feel 'normal' compared to how other things in the game work.

My fear is in things that will later allow counters to move, or duplicate, or count how many counters, etc. Some of those already exist.

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 507
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

Mutate differs from bestow because you can mutate onto that creature OR under and become that creature, which provides flexibility. If your commander has mutate, you can have creatures on battlefield ahead of time, each of them serves as "aura" you cast before let loose your commander, eating their abilities.

ilovesaprolings
Posts: 468
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by ilovesaprolings » 1 year ago

Notice that a bestowed commander don't give commander damage.
A mutated commander give the card commander damage, wheter it's over or under other creatures

User avatar
folding_music
minus 75% EDH
Posts: 1169
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: they / them

Post by folding_music » 1 year ago

if someone designed Mutate in a custom card competition it'd be downvoted into oblivion
so fiddly and hard to represent, creates a hundred questions and collapses to unsummon
im kinda giggling that it exists at all

CTNC
Posts: 21
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by CTNC » 1 year ago

I don't see how Mutate is hard to represent. You can have the actual creature on top and the others half underneath (covering the art half) to make it like it's an extended text box. Then again, I don't get why I don't see other people do this with auras and equipment.

User avatar
bobthefunny
Resident Plainswalker
Posts: 417
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by bobthefunny » 1 year ago

CTNC wrote:
1 year ago
I don't see how Mutate is hard to represent. You can have the actual creature on top and the others half underneath (covering the art half) to make it like it's an extended text box. Then again, I don't get why I don't see other people do this with auras and equipment.
If you have 3-4 auras/equips on something, the space can get to be unwieldy. Also, some equips/auras are fairly well known, so you don't need the text box showing, and it's actually easier to recognize the name at a glance.

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1441
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

The thing that grinds my gears most about mutate is the fact it doesn't alter stats at all. All its predecessors, bestow, host/augment, did something with power/toughness. This does not. So a pile of conjoined monsters is only as good as the biggest one?

I still can't make up my mind with regards to the Godzilla reskins. I fluctuate between "this is so stupid, I love it" and "this is so stupid, I hate it". Regardless, the fact they seem to pretty consistently name the formal oracle name, even in the reskins (check this out, for example), feels weirdly grating.

My repressed inner Timmy is quite stoked about all the kaijus though.

User avatar
FoxOfWar
Posts: 80
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: she / her

Post by FoxOfWar » 1 year ago

I haven't felt this big of a distance between my love of the flavor and my dislike of the mechanic since the werewolf mechanic of Innistrad first surfaced. I've always been a big werecreature geek, but in practice tracking "who cast what when" and constantly flipping the cards... is headache-inducing.

I do very much enjoy the *idea* of creatures "turbo-evolving", and a lot of the art is really really sweet.

I think cycling is the only mechanic in this set I like. Companion is... odd, and feels wonky in our format, but... I might yet come around to that. The other two, though... eugh.

I very definitely do not enjoy excessive bookkeeping, and both mutate and ability counters reek of things getting muddled up in a longer commander multiplayer game. As also mentioned, mutate seems pretty darn parasitic in design with all the 'when this mutates' things.

Will follow with interest, but my first impression has me twitch more than I thought.
36 decks or so...
Show
Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile - Ghosty Blinky Anafenza - Nezahal - Big, Blue and HERE! - Gonti Can Afford It - Kazuul, Tyrant of Chandras - Polukranos, More Mana - Azor Takes Flight - A3OS System - Vona Life Pain - Angel With a Whip and Her Pet Fox - Tolsimir Wolf Crusade - Dragonlord Steal & Copy - Arjun, the Mad Flame - Tatyova's Mad Lands - Zegana's Simic - Chainer Does the Value Dance - Polukranos, Unchained - Running Thromok - Sydri's Loco-Inspiraion - Zedruu the Furyhearted - Estrid Land Animation - A Case of Tariel's Persistent F*ckery - Tail of the AristoCat Humanitarian - Karador, Tomb Operator - Tayam Re-Curses - Jeleva... does... things - Sidisi, Death is Served - Omnath, Blink and You're Missing - The Negatiweaver - Breya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs - Ishai and Reyhan Dicepile - Kynaios and Tiro Landfall Impersonations - Tana and Ravos' Regal Gatekeeping - Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation - General Tazri's Utterly Amazing Allies

User avatar
toctheyounger
Posts: 2210
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

FoxOfWar wrote:
1 year ago
I haven't felt this big of a distance between my love of the flavor and my dislike of the mechanic since the werewolf mechanic of Innistrad first surfaced. I've always been a big werecreature geek, but in practice tracking "who cast what when" and constantly flipping the cards... is headache-inducing.

I think cycling is the only mechanic in this set I like. Companion is... odd, and feels wonky in our format, but... I might yet come around to that. The other two, though... eugh.

I very definitely do not enjoy excessive bookkeeping, and both mutate and ability counters reek of things getting muddled up in a longer commander multiplayer game. As also mentioned, mutate seems pretty darn parasitic in design with all the 'when this mutates' things.

Will follow with interest, but my first impression has me twitch more than I thought.
Relatable. It's nice to see new cards, but there's SO much to take in with just a few releases so far and it's a bit overwhelming, let alone thinking about how it's going to play out in a RL game situation, which is just baffling.

For myself I'm just going to take it as it comes and digest the whole set once it's out, most likely.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

User avatar
TheGildedGoose
HONK HONK
Posts: 162
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: it /its
Contact:

Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

New Abzan commanders! Kathril, Aspect Warper is kinda cool, but I'm hoping they print something that lends itself towards an Abzan control shell that either generates card advantage or removes something.

User avatar
toctheyounger
Posts: 2210
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

GloriousGoose wrote:
1 year ago
New Abzan commanders! Kathril, Aspect Warper is kinda cool, but I'm hoping they print something that lends itself towards an Abzan control shell that either generates card advantage or removes something.
Agree here too - this one is very much a voltron commander which gets a bit boring. I'd kill for a decent Abzan control commander.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

User avatar
TheAmericanSpirit
Human Smokestack
Posts: 406
Joined: 1 year ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Under the chicken coop

Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

As someone who spent his childhood watching old monster movies and listening to MF Doom, I must have a copy of that King Ghidorah card. Don't really care how much $$$ it runs for, doesn't matter if it's good or not, and if I have to buy it in a secret lair from Lucifer himself in exchange for 200 foreskins and a keg of childrens' blood, by golly I will.

*swoon* It's even in RUG. I honestly have never been more excited for a special printing or a new legend in general than this new chance to play Monster Zero in the CZ.

Hate the other two arts for the Apex of Wishes though. It's as if the universe is telling me to go for the gusto this time.

User avatar
UnfulfilledDesires
Posts: 96
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: they / them
Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA

Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 1 year ago

I doubt I'll build it, but Otrimi, the Ever-Playful looks like a blast with Cold-Eyed Selkie, Needle Specter, Cephalid Constable, & similar.

ilovesaprolings
Posts: 468
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by ilovesaprolings » 1 year ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
1 year ago
The thing that grinds my gears most about mutate is the fact it doesn't alter stats at all. All its predecessors, bestow, host/augment, did something with power/toughness. This does not. So a pile of conjoined monsters is only as good as the biggest one?
I love this fact. If there was a P/T increase too, mutate would have been 100% upsides. You could mutate onto a 5/5 vanilla and get a boost.
This way you have to think about it. Mutating into a vanilla does (almost) nothing. Mutating into a flyer when you are already evasive does nothing. And so on.
You can tinker and stitch together strong activated/triggered abilities. Way more interesting gameplay

User avatar
bobthefunny
Resident Plainswalker
Posts: 417
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by bobthefunny » 1 year ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
1 year ago
Rumpy5897 wrote:
1 year ago
The thing that grinds my gears most about mutate is the fact it doesn't alter stats at all. All its predecessors, bestow, host/augment, did something with power/toughness. This does not. So a pile of conjoined monsters is only as good as the biggest one?
I love this fact. If there was a P/T increase too, mutate would have been 100% upsides. You could mutate onto a 5/5 vanilla and get a boost.
This way you have to think about it. Mutating into a vanilla does (almost) nothing. Mutating into a flyer when you are already evasive does nothing. And so on.
You can tinker and stitch together strong activated/triggered abilities. Way more interesting gameplay
Think of it as a creature gaining the skills and traits of other creatures. You're not necessarily making a bigger dinosaur, but rather one that's smarter, faster, and able to open doors. Still terrifying.

Also, I bet there will be several creatures with abilities like "This gets +x = to creatures in GYs" or something along those lines.

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 507
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

UnfulfilledDesires wrote:
1 year ago
I doubt I'll build it, but Otrimi, the Ever-Playful looks like a blast with Cold-Eyed Selkie, Needle Specter, Cephalid Constable, & similar.
Those cards were used in Volrath, the Shapestealer for similar reason. Even if I don't make Otrimi deck, I might include it in my Volrath just to have another way to increase creature size.

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 1706
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Last night looking at this set it seems very borked and had me worried. This morning, with a bit more sleep, a bit more perspective, and the banning of lutri (thank christ), I think I'm generally down for it.

Mutate is actually kind of great as a mechanic the more I think about it, because even stuff that looks potentially obnoxious on first blush - biollante, for example - doesn't do anything unless it successfully mutates, which means you're essentially relying on an aura resolving. Which means any color with targeted creature removal - so all of them - have the ability to stop it, and stop it with extreme prejudice since it'll usually be a 2-for-1. I like mechanics that are reasonable to interact with.

The mutate legends are mostly kind of eh to me, since they rely on presumably only cards from this set (aka parasitic, as everyone is saying) to really achieve full potential, though even if they just trigger once I guess they're ok, and most of their bodies are reasonable. I think I actually like brokkos, apex of forever the most of the cycle, since he doesn't care about other mutate cards. He's just down to make buddies with anybody who wants to become a 6/6 trample that counts as your commander.

Anyway, this set seems like kind of a control player's wet dream. Everyone's going to be playing a bunch of auras now? Cool, GL with that. In response...

User avatar
Serenade
UnderKing
Posts: 748
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

Library of Leng
+
Fluctuator
+
Drannith Stinger

In the colors with artifact search and transmute? I'm now bored with Gavi.

These counters/mutate cards look like they will make a game so much messier.
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 1706
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Serenade wrote:
1 year ago
Library of Leng
+
Fluctuator
+
Drannith Stinger

In the colors with artifact search and transmute? I'm now bored with Gavi.
nawp.
You can't use the Library of Leng ability to place a discarded card on top of your library when you discard a card as a cost, because costs aren't effects.

User avatar
toctheyounger
Posts: 2210
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
nawp.
You can't use the Library of Leng ability to place a discarded card on top of your library when you discard a card as a cost, because costs aren't effects.
Yup, Library is one of the very earliest examples of a card that has had a built-in 'can't break me' button slapped on it. Definitely looked into this building Varina, I was disappointed. Still a good card, just not a combo card.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

User avatar
Serenade
UnderKing
Posts: 748
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

Oh, thank goodness. Just OG Tamiyo and a bigger setup to break that then.
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

User avatar
toctheyounger
Posts: 2210
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Serenade wrote:
1 year ago
Oh, thank goodness. Just OG Tamiyo and a bigger setup to break that then.
To be fair though, good luck hitting that emblem. I never have and I played her regularly for quite some time.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

User avatar
tstorm823
Knowledge Pool
Posts: 613
Joined: 1 year ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him
Location: York, PA

Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
Serenade wrote:
1 year ago
Oh, thank goodness. Just OG Tamiyo and a bigger setup to break that then.
To be fair though, good luck hitting that emblem. I never have and I played her regularly for quite some time.
I've seen precisely 3 of that emblem happen. One was a planeschase game where the place gave a free Tamiyo like turn 2. The other two were me and another player both being controlly, and we both emblemed a Tamiyo the same time around the table and just played the game out with equal Tamiyo powers.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Commander”