Sheldon's throwaway comment about banning wheels

[pokken]

I'm not gonna derail this thread the whole way, but I disagree with this entirely. Many, many cards have received undo judgment because of the play patterns that fast mana creates.

And on the flipside I don't really think Craterhoof Behemoth is any better on turn 7 from green ramp than if it were turn 6 from artifact ramp

[BeneTleilax]

I don't think I agree with your premise, not even a little, so I can't really follow along with the rest

I would hate redrawing my opening hand after making 3 or 4 rounds of decisions even if it were cast on curve. I've never liked wheels and the dice rolly element they add to the game.

I especially detest Wheel of Fortune which heavily favors certain types of decks. The number of times I've seen the reanimator deck or the control deck savagely wreck the table after someone cast a casual wheel is so high. Just yuck.

The "casual wheel" of "Oh, i'm playing red and I couldn't think of what to lay for card draw so I put my wheel of fortune in there, I'm out of cards, let's wheel! It's fun!" is so boring. You hear things like "I'm not sure this is a good idea but let's see what happens!"

Double yuck

I guess I'm lucky, as I've never seen lolrandom wheels outside of dedicated chaos decks, who'd just replace the slot with something equally obnoxious. For me, it's either the aforementioned locks, card-draw matters decks or graveyard decks of various stripes who have good reasons for using them. Yeah, it can be frustrating having your hand scrambled after you've spent a couple turns sculpting it, but it can also be frustrating to sculpt a board and then lose it to wrath collateral. I don't really see the difference between those. Similarly, any symmetrical effect like wheels can kingmake, either by accident or stupidity. I've seen Twilight's Call be a kingmaker, I've seen Acidic Soil be a kingmaker, and I've seen wraths be kingmakers more times than I can count. That's part of the game as well.

[Vertain]

Will you look at that, yet another awful take. WotC should really have taken the reins of their most popular format rather than hand it to the guy who evidently doesn't care about it outside of his own playgroup.

[LightningHelix]

The main problem is how Wizards worded the cards Hullbreacher , Narset, Parter of Veils and Notion Thief .

They should've said "if an opponent draws a card other than thier first by their own effect." or something like that. That way it would actually punish opposing wheels and wouldn't be so abusable.

But alas despite Narset and Notion thief doing what they do, they still printed hullbreacher

It surprises me people didn't wake up until Dauthi Voidwalker .

I don't think Wheels should be banned at all, but Narset, hullbreacher and notion thief? I could see a case for that. I guess lump Alms Collector in there?

[kirkusjones]

If anything needs a ban (and I don't really think anything does), Hullbreacher should be it. Full stop. Were Notion Thief and Narset, Parter of Veils format bogeymen before this? It doesn't seem like it. Yeah, they sometimes create feel-bad situations, but so do lots of cards. Everyone has their own axe to grind in this format. It's just unfortunate when someone on the RC grinds theirs so publicly.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Will you look at that, yet another awful take. WotC should really have taken the reins of their most popular format rather than hand it to the guy who evidently doesn't care about it outside of his own playgroup.

You must be joking. If you think we're being squeezed by wotc for product now, imagine if they had creative direction over the format. They'd be straight up abusing us imho. At least Sheldon doesn't have a profit motive and corporate masters to answer to....

[kirkusjones]

Will you look at that, yet another awful take. WotC should really have taken the reins of their most popular format rather than hand it to the guy who evidently doesn't care about it outside of his own playgroup.

You must be joking. If you think we're being squeezed by wotc for product now, imagine if they had creative direction over the format. They'd be straight up abusing us imho. At least Sheldon doesn't have a profit motive and corporate masters to answer to....

Sounds like someone doesn't know about the multiple mansions the RC members bought via insider trading around the Painter's Servant unban…#truefacts #lookintoit #ihavethedocuments #wakeupsheeple

[Vertain]

You must be joking. If you think we're being squeezed by wotc for product now, imagine if they had creative direction over the format. They'd be straight up abusing us imho. At least Sheldon doesn't have a profit motive and corporate masters to answer to....

I am, unironically, absolutely serious about this. Because, at the end of the day, we still got absolute gems like Hullbreacher, Chulane, Teller of Tales, Jeweled Lotus, and let's not forget the Walking Dead Secret Lair. The RC's reaction? They "thoroughly looked at" the overwhelmingly negative community feedback and "received the message loud and clear". So what did they make of it? Release a statement that is as corporate as can be, while the playerbase wastold to "just rule 0 it." That's it, nothing else.

At least under WotC, we could have a banlist that is updated more often than once in a blue moon.

[pokken]

That's it, nothing else. At least under WotC, we could have a banlist that is updated more often than once in a blue moon.

Take a look into the storied and tragic history of WOTC "Managing" 1v1 commander on MTGO right into the ground with their genius oversight.

[BeneTleilax]

You must be joking. If you think we're being squeezed by wotc for product now, imagine if they had creative direction over the format. They'd be straight up abusing us imho. At least Sheldon doesn't have a profit motive and corporate masters to answer to....

I am, unironically, absolutely serious about this. Because, at the end of the day, we still got absolute gems like Hullbreacher, Chulane, Teller of Tales, Jeweled Lotus, and let's not forget the Walking Dead Secret Lair. The RC's reaction? They "thoroughly looked at" the overwhelmingly negative community feedback and "received the message loud and clear". So what did they make of it? Release a statement that is as corporate as can be, while the playerbase wastold to "just rule 0 it." That's it, nothing else.

At least under WotC, we could have a banlist that is updated more often than once in a blue moon.

EDH has absorbed waves of exodus from other formats because of WotC's mismanagement. Even if you disregard the RC's oversight (it's impossible to know what they prevented, unless somewhat at WotC decides to speak up about the %$#%$#% they tried to print), the RC doesn't try to create pseudo-rotation through bans, and takes pains to respect rule 0. Their frequent but markedly erratic bans in Modern and Standard are significantly more destructive than the bans in EDH. I fail to see how WotC's abuse of the power they have in EDH means they should have more power over our format.

[NZB2323]

I was planning to put Sanctifier en-Vec in my Bruna, the Fading Light but that deck specifically uses its graveyard and has cares about what is and isn't a human / angel.

I also see a number of reanimator / aristocrat decks in my meta. I wouldn't say they are huge in my meta but I would probably give them a 5-10% of the meta kind of a feel and this card could single handedly shut them down. On top of that the dual protections gives me a great chump blocker given that my deck isn't overly fast. I like that it gives me an early game equipment carrier and the protections could easily let me deliver some equipment to face. It is also something that can be tutored for by Recruiter of the Guard which to date has mostly been a designation that only Scavenging Ooze has really held (others can be but most of those aren't really played).

I do sort of wish that it hit more colors and wasn't just red and black but getting the dual protections, the ETB, and continual hate on death triggers are all very relevant things if you ask me. It does suck that a Blood Artist will see a bunch of green, white, or blue creatures dying still but well... I think the card is already somewhat pushed for what likely was intended to be a sideboard card for most other formats.

Do those reanimator/aristocrat decks not play Massacre, Massacre Girl, Massacre Wurm, Toxic Deluge, Black Sun's Zenith, [/card]Damnation, or Meteor Golem? Between all the tutors and card draw black has, they should be able to find an answer to Sanctifier en-Vec, not to mention according to EDHREC Teysa Karlov and Meren of Clan Nel Toth are the 2 top commanders for aristocrats according to EDHREC, so they could use Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Generous Gift, Oblation, Damn, other white sweepers, Archon of Justice, or Beast Within, Culling Ritual, Gaze of Granite, Pernicious Deed.

It just amazes me that someone with so much power and influence for MTG would say that Sanctifier en-Vec suggests to him that wheels should be banned.

[ISBPathfinder]

I really don't understand what's the fuss about banning Hullbreacher.
He can always just be flashed in order to punish another player wheeling or drawing a huge amount of cards.

In the most common or ''offensive'' play he can be flashed (pay 2U) in response to your own Windfall (pay another 2U) for a total 6 mana in order to make a huge swing in the game, without anyone having a response to it. 6 cmc cards or card combos should do this imo. If you combine breacher with other wheels which are in different colors and / or more expensive (Echo of Eons etc.) it gets even more difficult to resolve both effects. I can't recall a single time that I just flashed Hullbreacher EOT or just played him and being able to have him survive for a full turn clock.

It has flash though so you could T3 Hullbreacher at your opponents end of turn and T4 wheel. It changes the amount of mana you need from six to three and that isn't even taking into account the fact that most decks that run a bunch of wheels also often run a ton of fast mana so you could really pull this off as early as T2 with the right ramp start. I don't want to get into magical christmas land starts but even just looking at curving it at end of turn into a wheel on your turn lets you split up the cost over two turns.

Flash wheel payoffs are more of a problem than ones without because they leave less time to interact with things and it reduces the cost of doing as you get to sort of split it over multiple turns but not really leave much opening to interact.

[Vertain]

You must be joking. If you think we're being squeezed by wotc for product now, imagine if they had creative direction over the format. They'd be straight up abusing us imho. At least Sheldon doesn't have a profit motive and corporate masters to answer to....

I am, unironically, absolutely serious about this. Because, at the end of the day, we still got absolute gems like Hullbreacher, Chulane, Teller of Tales, Jeweled Lotus, and let's not forget the Walking Dead Secret Lair. The RC's reaction? They "thoroughly looked at" the overwhelmingly negative community feedback and "received the message loud and clear". So what did they make of it? Release a statement that is as corporate as can be, while the playerbase wastold to "just rule 0 it." That's it, nothing else.

At least under WotC, we could have a banlist that is updated more often than once in a blue moon.

EDH has absorbed waves of exodus from other formats because of WotC's mismanagement. Even if you disregard the RC's oversight (it's impossible to know what they prevented, unless somewhat at WotC decides to speak up about the %$#%$#% they tried to print), the RC doesn't try to create pseudo-rotation through bans, and takes pains to respect rule 0. Their frequent but markedly erratic bans in Modern and Standard are significantly more destructive than the bans in EDH. I fail to see how WotC's abuse of the power they have in EDH means they should have more power over our format.

Card design and power creep have been absolutely egregious, no doubt, in every format across the board. But WotC have banned Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis in less than two months, and did not shy away from touching the format's "holy cow" Faithless Looting, when they turned out to be unbearable for the respective format. Something that would be utterly unthinkable from the RC.

[hyalopterouslemur]

Wheels mostly become an issue when you start interfering with a player's ability to draw. Bear in mind, these cards do have legitimate use themselves. (Chairman Meow is hardly a problem at all, outside of wheel decks.)

And people have been complaining about Consecrated Sphinx since MBS.

[Sinis]

EDH has absorbed waves of exodus from other formats because of WotC's mismanagement. ... I fail to see how WotC's abuse of the power they have in EDH means they should have more power over our format.

Hard agree. Even if I'm disappointed in the RC, at least they're not doing what WotC does.

[toctheyounger]

Card design and power creep have been absolutely egregious, no doubt, in every format across the board. But WotC have banned Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis in less than two months, and did not shy away from touching the format's "holy cow" Faithless Looting, when they turned out to be unbearable for the respective format. Something that would be utterly unthinkable from the RC.

Apples and oranges, honestly. EDH doesn't have anything comparable to a competitive tour like Modern, and there's no overarching meta that would be indundated the way Bridgevine did Modern. It's why this is the only format outside of the wild west that is Vintage where Oko, Thief of Crowns still exists.

Honestly this is a pretty weird hill to die on. Personally I like that the RC has a light touch. It acknowledges that there's a significant financial investment to this game and no decisions are made lightly, partly because they don't want to drive people away, and partly because a lot of these issues can be managed on the meta level. As much crap as people give Rule 0, it actually is a reasonable fix to a lot of the issues people complain about, at least with a fixed meta. In pickup games, obviously it doesn't work as well.

At any rate, I genuinely think you're fooling yourself if you think WotC could do better with EDH than the current RC could.

[TheGildedGoose]

I may be the loyal opposition to the RC in terms of banlist philosophy but at least they have a philosophy. I dread the idea of WotC grabbing the reins and trying to balance the format while retaining its identity, which is functionally impossible.

[DirkGently]

I think it's pretty reasonable for the RC to be as slow as they are to change the banlist. For one, casual formats and rapidly changing banlists are not good bedfellows. And two, lacking a competitive environment, it's pretty rare for a card or archetype to utterly dominate a meta.

Do I wish they banned more cards? Yes, but I don't think WotC's approach suits the format better, at all.

Free Gifts Ungiven! And also Library?

So nobody has removal available because they're tapping out for their own ramp.

Well, yeah. I don't think it's healthy for a meta to become a tragedy of the commons situation where someone needs to hold up removal T3 because of just-in-case hullbreacher, but nobody wants to because they reasonably want to develop their board, so it becomes a game of chicken and/or people just don't and then get blown out. Probably fine for cEDH but that combo has no business being in a normal game imo.

[Vertain]

I may be the loyal opposition to the RC in terms of banlist philosophy but at least they have a philosophy. I dread the idea of WotC grabbing the reins and trying to balance the format while retaining its identity, which is functionally impossible.

Leovold, Emissary of Trest is banned, while Hullbreacher and Narset, Parter of Veils are not. The original Moxen are banned, while Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are not. I would love to see a philosophy behind that.

At any rate, I genuinely think you're fooling yourself if you think WotC could do better with EDH than the current RC could.

When it comes down to the company that has managed eternal and rotating formats, through good and bad times versus the guy that thinks Dauthi Voidwalker is what's going to break wheels and made his disdain for a part of the community he's supposed to stand for (cEDH) not exactly a secret, more than once, even, then yes, I'll gladly take my chances with the former rather than the latter.

[toctheyounger]

When it comes down to the company that has managed eternal and rotating formats, through good and bad times versus the guy that thinks Dauthi Voidwalker is what's going to break wheels and made his disdain for a part of the community he's supposed to stand for (cEDH) not exactly a secret, more than once, even, then yes, I'll gladly take my chances with the former rather than the latter.

Hey, you do you man. I'm not attacking you or anything. I just think the format is in the right hands at present, and I can't see WotC doing a better job. In fact I think it'd be a dumpster fire. But that's my opinion, clearly it varies from yours, and that's ok.

As for Sheldon and his stance on wheels, cEDH and such, well, it's more or less eye of the beholder stuff really. I've been personally castigated for playing cards that would be considered pretty innocuous in other games before, it happens. Everyone has their bugbears. Where this differs is obviously that Sheldon is the figurehead of the format, but I think that might be a little deceptive in appearances. Just because he's more omnipresent in articles and content doesn't mean he has more say than any other committee member. That's what a committee is, after all. @papa_funk could probably tell us whether that's accurate or not, but it seems fairly obvious to me that rulings within the RC are not a dictatorship.

I also think things have come a long way in the schism between EDH/cEDH. There were a couple of fairly enormous threads here on Nexus in which prominent members of the RC went over their positions, prominent cEDH players shared their points and common ground was found. We're not the be all and end all of course, but there's plenty of evidence without looking too far abroad that cEDH players aren't quite the outcasts from more official channels that they once were. People are capable of changing their opinions, essentially.

Idk man, it just seems like you might be viewing the RC as the worst possible versions of themselves, and that doesn't seem overly fair. Likewise, I may be viewing WotC as a format-governing organisation in the worst possible light, too. Nonetheless, my view is 'why fix what ain't broke?' The RC, by and large, have been effective at placating what is an enormously wide array of players ranging from kitchen table casual to cutthroat Spike with relatively few issues. I don't see the need for that to change any time soon.

[TheGildedGoose]

Leovold, Emissary of Trest is banned, while Hullbreacher and Narset, Parter of Veils are not. The original Moxen are banned, while Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are not. I would love to see a philosophy behind that.

Leovold locked people out and made for the ill-defined "undesirable game state." Moxen are banned because of perceived barrier to entry reasons. Do I think their reasons behind bannings are applied inconsistently? Of course. Fast mana needs to go, and Wheel Thieves are the real problem, not Wheels themselves. But looking at the past five years of card design and banlist governance, it strikes me as rather unlikely that WotC would do a better job.

When it comes down to the company that has managed eternal and rotating formats, through good and bad times versus the guy that thinks Dauthi Voidwalker is what's going to break wheels and made his disdain for a part of the community he's supposed to stand for (cEDH) not exactly a secret, more than once, even, then yes, I'll gladly take my chances with the former rather than the latter.

He's not the only member of the RC/CAG.

[BeneTleilax]

Neither WotC or the RC are static. The RC has gotten more considerate of cEDH (and I think your characterization of them as "disdainful" of it is incorrect at best, malicious at worst) as evidenced by the Flash ban. WotC, on the other hand, has gotten progressively more clownish in their management of Standard and Modern, the two formats they intervene in the most.

[RxPhantom]

I definitely agree with others insofar as the RC being better stewards of the format than WotC. I've disagreed with plenty of RC decisions, but agreed with most. They will never please everyone every time. I'm still profoundly perplexed by Sheldon's thoughts on wheels, but not in his overall performance. Not yet, anyway.

[toctheyounger]

I definitely agree with others insofar as the RC being better stewards of the format than WotC. I've disagreed with plenty of RC decisions, but agreed with most. They will never please everyone every time. I'm still profoundly perplexed by Sheldon's thoughts on wheels, but not in his overall performance. Not yet, anyway.

Honestly I think people tend to be very critical of Sheldon as it is. What he does being the figurehead isn't easy, and it's always going to come with more than its fair share of backlash. He could have the best takes ever and people would still find a loose thread to pick at. That is the role he has as the visible member of the RC; he is the first visible subject for ridicule, and thus, that's there the mud gets flung. I wouldn't wanna do it.

[Legend]

RC about wishes: uSe RuLE ZeRo.
RC about wheels: Ban them.

And on top of that, he was way off the mark, and I think it exposed a disconnect between the RC and the format at large.

Their boomer take on wishes already did that.