Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[Hermes_]

[DirkGently]

White seems to be getting some love, Recruitment Officer seems good. Maybe one of these days white players will stop complaining.

Are you kidding? Complaining is whites most powerful mechanic.

[Hermes_]

White seems to be getting some love, Recruitment Officer seems good. Maybe one of these days white players will stop complaining.

Are you kidding? Complaining is whites most powerful mechanic.

It's also your secondary power

Please be careful of trolling other users. While this specific comment is borderline and can be taken with the intent of being humorous/friendly teasing, comments like this will be more aggressively handled in the future. - benjameenbear

[Serenade]

I'ma complain about the recruiter's haircut.

[Lifeless]

I too had a hard TLDR moment on the Transformers cards. I actually haven't gone back to read them yet, lol. I will say that I greatly prefer this distribution method to Secret Lairs at least at first glance.

[Wallycaine]

Happily they all look pretty terrible. But my biggest question is, why do they say "convert" instead of "transform"? The easiest flavour slam-dunk of all time, no?

It's apparently something having to do with the trademark or copyright for Transformers. By acknowledging that transforming is a verb it somehow can weaken the trademark for that product from what I saw in a random reddit comment.

According to Maro, this is a rules thing. That said, reading the rules myself, it does appear to be possible to cast a TDFC card transformed, so... yeah.

Maro is answering why they have the "More Than Meets The Eye" keyword, instead of just being MDFC's that can transform. The use of Convert instead of Transform for the verb is entirely because of trademark, as the tfWiki goes over here.

[darrenhabib]

It's kind of embarrassing that literally the keyword used in Magic to turn a double-faced card on the back side is Transform and in the one instance where they don't use it is for the Transformer cards! Face-palm.

[5colorsrainbow]

I'm liking the transforms for Kykar, them being basically transform MDC is a fun design and nice if I need a creature or a vehicle at that moment.

[Dunadain]

So I just realized that Surge Engine's last ability can only be used once, ever. When I first read it I assumed it was once per turn.

For some reason that feels weird to me, like sure, monstrous also can only be used once, and Demonic Pact's modes can each only be chosen once, and there are a ton of similar effects...

But for some reason, some pattern recognition function on my brain looks at this and says that the last ability looks wrong.

[ukkuhrmakhai]

So I just realized that Surge Engine's last ability can only be used once, ever. When I first read it I assumed it was once per turn.

For some reason that feels weird to me, like sure, monstrous also can only be used once, and Demonic Pact's modes can each only be chosen once, and there are a ton of similar effects...

But for some reason, some pattern recognition function on my brain looks at this and says that the last ability looks wrong.

It really feels like there should've been some sort of counter in the ability. Like put a +1/+1 counter and draw 3 cards activate only if surge engine is blue and has no +1/+1 counters. I guess then you could activate it in response to itself.

[Dunadain]

So I just realized that Surge Engine's last ability can only be used once, ever. When I first read it I assumed it was once per turn.

For some reason that feels weird to me, like sure, monstrous also can only be used once, and Demonic Pact's modes can each only be chosen once, and there are a ton of similar effects...

But for some reason, some pattern recognition function on my brain looks at this and says that the last ability looks wrong.

It really feels like there should've been some sort of counter in the ability. Like put a +1/+1 counter and draw 3 cards activate only if surge engine is blue and has no +1/+1 counters. I guess then you could activate it in response to itself.

Glad I'm not the only one haha.

I am curious though, super late game draw engine was too strong? Or you think they just ran out of room on the card?

[Venedrex]

So I just realized that Surge Engine's last ability can only be used once, ever. When I first read it I assumed it was once per turn.

For some reason that feels weird to me, like sure, monstrous also can only be used once, and Demonic Pact's modes can each only be chosen once, and there are a ton of similar effects...

But for some reason, some pattern recognition function on my brain looks at this and says that the last ability looks wrong.

It really feels like there should've been some sort of counter in the ability. Like put a +1/+1 counter and draw 3 cards activate only if surge engine is blue and has no +1/+1 counters. I guess then you could activate it in response to itself.

Glad I'm not the only one haha.

I am curious though, super late game draw engine was too strong? Or you think they just ran out of room on the card?

My custom designer senses are also tingling. We've never had such an overt way of saying DO THIS ONLY ONCE PER GAME. This might open up some possibilities for new mechanics along the lines of monstrous but without the baggage of having to use counters.

[Mookie]

My custom designer senses are also tingling. We've never had such an overt way of saying DO THIS ONLY ONCER PER GAME. This might open up some possibilities for new mechanics along the lines of monstrous but without the baggage of having to use counters.

I imagine it's an extension of the 'triggers once per turn' cards they've been printing recently (see: Welcoming Vampire, Forge Boss, etc). It is a bit odd though, since this sort of thing does usually use a counter or something due to memory concerns.

...on the other hand, it could also be a Play Design thing. I could see a world in which it was designed to help out blue aggro, but was instead seeing a bunch of play in durdley control decks, so they removed the ability to just sit back and draw cards forever. Ascendant Spirit and Evolved Sleeper also have value-generating ultimates, but they also force the game to move forward (by only drawing cards on attack and costing life, respectively). Given that powerstones are a mechanic in the new set, I could see them specifically wanting some creatures with activated abilities to act as mana sinks, while simultaneously not being able to dominate a game with no other support - this encourages having a variety of things to spend mana on, instead of just dumping all your mana into a single Surge Engine.

[Venedrex]

My custom designer senses are also tingling. We've never had such an overt way of saying DO THIS ONLY ONCE PER GAME. This might open up some possibilities for new mechanics along the lines of monstrous but without the baggage of having to use counters.

I imagine it's an extension of the 'triggers once per turn' cards they've been printing recently (see: Welcoming Vampire, Forge Boss, etc). It is a bit odd though, since this sort of thing does usually use a counter or something due to memory concerns.

...on the other hand, it could also be a Play Design thing. I could see a world in which it was designed to help out blue aggro, but was instead seeing a bunch of play in durdley control decks, so they removed the ability to just sit back and draw cards forever. Ascendant Spirit and Evolved Sleeper also have value-generating ultimates, but they also force the game to move forward (by only drawing cards on attack and costing life, respectively). Given that powerstones are a mechanic in the new set, I could see them specifically wanting some creatures with activated abilities to act as mana sinks, while simultaneously not being able to dominate a game with no other support - this encourages having a variety of things to spend mana on, instead of just dumping all your mana into a single Surge Engine.

For sure, that's a great point about them wanting mana sinks for the powerstones, I hadn't considered that but it makes a lot of sense that we'd be seeing that on cards. Certainly interesting. I look forward to seeing the rest of BRO.. that set name is awesome lol.

P.S. On the topic of set names, I kind of wish THB had been TBD and ELD had been TOE for the laughs.

[WizardMN]

My custom designer senses are also tingling. We've never had such an overt way of saying DO THIS ONLY ONCE PER GAME. This might open up some possibilities for new mechanics along the lines of monstrous but without the baggage of having to use counters.

This is currently the 4th "real" (depending on how you look at things) instance of an ability limiting itself to only once per game. The other three instances are:

Stalking Leonin
Emissary of Grudges
Guardian Archon

Granted, those are related to secretly choosing something, but still have the "activate only once" text. If we go beyond that to include things that (normally) go away at the end of turn, Goblin Ski Patrol and Touch of Vitae also say it. And, if we go even further and add in Arena only cards (which generally solve the memory issues so aren't quite as important to the discussion), we have:

Gate of the Black Dragon
Gate to Manorborn
Gate to Seatower
Gate to the Citadel
Gate to Tumbledown
Subversive Acolyte

And, for an Acorn card, Urza's Fun House says it.

To the point at hand, it is a very seldom used line of text but due to it existing before I wouldn't expect it to show up too often in the future. It will almost certainly show up again, but I don't think this card is breaking enough new ground to see the text more often. My guess is predicated mostly on the memory issues already alluded to. Once every few years is likely fine but I am not sure they would want to introduce an entire mechanic around it without the assistance of some sort of memory aid.

[ukkuhrmakhai]

It really feels like there should've been some sort of counter in the ability. Like put a +1/+1 counter and draw 3 cards activate only if surge engine is blue and has no +1/+1 counters. I guess then you could activate it in response to itself.

Glad I'm not the only one haha.

I am curious though, super late game draw engine was too strong? Or you think they just ran out of room on the card?

My custom designer senses are also tingling. We've never had such an overt way of saying DO THIS ONLY ONCE PER GAME. This might open up some possibilities for new mechanics along the lines of monstrous but without the baggage of having to use counters.

It opens some design space but not much that charge/divinity/<custom do nothing counter> didn't do before. It is very similar Myojin of Seeing Winds/other myojins, although the Surge Engine is shorter without the "enters the battlefield with X counter."

I don't think they could use more than once every few sets without a memory aid of some kind. If they do keep using it, I hope they stick to using it for big flashy ultimates. A cycle of Vivid Crag without counters would be such a headache.

It would make sense if it ended up being templated that way to avoid issues with powerstones. Powerstones aren't treasures so once you can activate the ability one turn you could do every turn.


As an edh card, Surge Engine looks much better than I thought it was. You would only want it in an artifact/equipment/vehicle deck but you can drop it for 2 and then give it unblockable when you have a sword for it. Late game, you can draw some cards if you have mana. I'm planning on putting together a Cosima, God of the Voyage // The Omenkeel deck, so I'll probably test it in there. Probably too slow since it doesn't generate value on it's own without a bunch of mana but unblockable is nice.

[Venedrex]

My custom designer senses are also tingling. We've never had such an overt way of saying DO THIS ONLY ONCE PER GAME. This might open up some possibilities for new mechanics along the lines of monstrous but without the baggage of having to use counters.

This is currently the 4th "real" (depending on how you look at things) instance of an ability limiting itself to only once per game. The other three instances are:

Stalking Leonin
Emissary of Grudges
Guardian Archon

Granted, those are related to secretly choosing something, but still have the "activate only once" text. If we go beyond that to include things that (normally) go away at the end of turn, Goblin Ski Patrol and Touch of Vitae also say it. And, if we go even further and add in Arena only cards (which generally solve the memory issues so aren't quite as important to the discussion), we have:

Gate of the Black Dragon
Gate to Manorborn
Gate to Seatower
Gate to the Citadel
Gate to Tumbledown
Subversive Acolyte

And, for an Acorn card, Urza's Fun House says it.

To the point at hand, it is a very seldom used line of text but due to it existing before I wouldn't expect it to show up too often in the future. It will almost certainly show up again, but I don't think this card is breaking enough new ground to see the text more often. My guess is predicated mostly on the memory issues already alluded to. Once every few years is likely fine but I am not sure they would want to introduce an entire mechanic around it without the assistance of some sort of memory aid.

Haha, lol clearly I forgot about all those. I remember watching Stalking Leonine being played in the C17? Game Knights episode and then it slipped my mind ever since. So uh yeah thanks for keeping me on track and ignore everything I just posted.


*Ahem*

Rewrites last post completely:

As a long established tool that has been in use since at least the original commander decks from 2017 and quite possibly earlier, it's cool to see this seldom used but already existent templating return to modern day magic, and in a standard legal set no less. Clearly this shows that is a useful tool to be used sparingly throughout the years at is has been in the past.

[Mookie]

As an edh card, Surge Engine looks much better than I thought it was. You would only want it in an artifact/equipment/vehicle deck but you can drop it for 2 and then give it unblockable when you have a sword for it. Late game, you can draw some cards if you have mana. I'm planning on putting together a Cosima, God of the Voyage // The Omenkeel deck, so I'll probably test it in there. Probably too slow since it doesn't generate value on it's own without a bunch of mana but unblockable is nice.

....now that I think of it, could be interesting in my Thada deck as a Tribute Mage target. It doesn't represent as much card advantage as Mask of Memory or Tome of Legends, but it is a nice self-contained threat.

....unfortunately, now that I have contemplated the fact that this mythic may, possibly, be constructed-playable, that pretty much guarantees it's going to end up being obnoxiously expensive. Alas.

[Venedrex]

Now I feel like I have an obligation to put Surge Engine in a deck after this whole discussion.

I've always wanted to build a deck themed around reducing activated abilities...Biomancer's Familiar, maybe Kenrith, the Returned King with Zirda, the Dawnwaker as companion?

[ukkuhrmakhai]

....unfortunately, now that I have contemplated the fact that this mythic may, possibly, be constructed-playable, that pretty much guarantees it's going to end up being obnoxiously expensive. Alas.

My feelings exactly.

It's not Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration because you can't drop it turn one, and it's not Smuggler's Copter because you don't get to card advantage the turn after you play it. But all it needs to grow is instant speed mana so you can keep interaction up and cheap threats that scale into the late game have usually been strong. On the other hand I have no idea what the current standard is like so maybe no will want to do 3 damage a turn, then 5 damage, then draw 3 cards.

[Venedrex]

Well a quick glance at MTG TOP 8 would seem to suggest that currently standard is heavily leaning towards Bx decks, with the current top dog being Esper with 27% of the meta, then the best of the rest being Rakdos, Grixis, Jund, straight up mono-black etc etc. Basically a strong core of black cards such as Tenacious Underdog, Graveyard Trespasser // Graveyard Glutton, and The Meathook Massacre, with some powerful white cards such as The Wandering Emperor and Wedding Announcement, followed up by a splash of blue for that sweet sweet Make Disappear and Raffine, Scheming Seer.

Not to mention Liliana of the Veil, Invoke Despair, and Infernal Grasp depending on the deck.
Of course, there hasn't been a massive tournament lately so that data might be questionable, but I think it's safe to say if you want to play competitive standard you will likely be running swamps, and from there you can decide if you want to go with other colors of mana in your deck.

[TheGildedGoose]

$1000 for four boosters of proxies.

I'm in utter disbelief that WotC thought this was a good idea.

[Serenade]

New cards in old borders still feels wrong to me.

[Ruiner]

$1000 for four boosters of proxies.

I'm in utter disbelief that WotC thought this was a good idea.

It might be the dumbest thing they've ever done. I can't figure out who the market is for these. Non-tournament legal, so someone out there wants "official proxies"? Anyone I know who uses proxies gets them for cheap through the various outlets if they don't want to make it themselves.

Imagine paying for that and getting a non-legal Healing Salve as one of your random 60 cards.

[Yatsufusa]

$1000 for four boosters of proxies.

I'm in utter disbelief that WotC thought this was a good idea.

It might be the dumbest thing they've ever done. I can't figure out who the market is for these. Non-tournament legal, so someone out there wants "official proxies"? Anyone I know who uses proxies gets them for cheap through the various outlets if they don't want to make it themselves.

Imagine paying for that and getting a non-legal Healing Salve as one of your random 60 cards.

The idea of a proxy is so that a person doesn't have to go through the cost or effort to get a (usually expensive, but mileage may vary) piece of cardboard. This laughable piece of product is so far removed it might as well be printed with Acorn stamps. At this point it's only for speculators, whom have to bank on the most hardcore of collectors who haven't been turned off by Universes Beyond being part of Magic (people who collect everything tend to be more attached to the history and sanctity of Magic, I would assume), or camp on the possibility WotC decides to legalize alternate borders (if Hasbro ever starts sinking hard enough you'll never know what they'll do).

I'm all for abolishing the Reserved List, but the convoluted hoops they jumped through to get here is laughable, considering that they once printed foils then decided to close that loophole, but never did it for CE/Gold-Bordered. The reveal that duals, not the P9, are twice as "common" (remember it's 1 rare per booster) compared to other rares screams that they sort of wanted to do a not-so-subtle *wink* towards EDH players in particular (except the price point - they do realize we could buy actual duals at that price point right, heck multiple if we lowered/varied expectations (white-bordered, condition & color-pairings)).

It's like their thought process went: Casual / EDH makes the most money now, not competitive. The Reserved List bans reprints for sanctioned play, but not for non-sanctioned ones. We didn't close the CE/Gold-Bordered loophole. Let's make non-sanctioned our "premium format" going forward for our cashgrabs, we make the duals slightly more "common". Now we can blatantly advertise that Casual/EDH is the format where the Reserved List got reprinted, except it wasn't in actually any practical-meaningful way.

There's a (gambling) part of me who hopes enough noise is made for them to close all loopholes completely instead now, because that has a higher chance of happening then complains actually making them generate reserved list proxies into actually reasonable prices. I mean, a few knowledge-steps back from the industry it basically looks like "Fake product sold by real manufacturer at the price of the real product".

It's so bad as a former-Vorthos if I was hypothetically forced to choose as a non-resellable gift between this and the surge-foil 40k decks, I'll go for the later. At least I can make a "board-game" out of those decks. I don't even think there's any prestige of telling people I have proxy-reprints of beta or a sealed pack of said proxies.