[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Rishkar, Peema Renegade

[Wallycaine]

I feel like this is a massively oversimplified view of table politics? There's not always a clear "ahead" and "behind". Even when there is, attacks don't exclusively go at the player who is ahead. Oftentimes, the player who is ahead is ahead because they have a better board position, which makes it rather difficult to profitably attack them. This leads to many attacks being decided by who's open, rather than who's ahead. These vows can help with nudging those attacks into other players, while also beefing whatever it is up enough to change the calculus of "who's open".

Pretty sure that's just a longer version of what you quoted within my response:

Of course there's a middle ground where it might actually steer the creature to attack in another direction, but imo that range is too narrow for a card like this to not suck.

My issue is with the implication that that's a rare or obscure event. In my experience, the vast majority of attacks made over the course of the game will fall into that category of "swinging at who's open" rather than whoever's ahead. If multiple players are open, then yes, whoever's ahead is the tiebreaker, but that's rarely needed.

[DirkGently]

My issue is with the implication that that's a rare or obscure event. In my experience, the vast majority of attacks made over the course of the game will fall into that category of "swinging at who's open" rather than whoever's ahead. If multiple players are open, then yes, whoever's ahead is the tiebreaker, but that's rarely needed.

I put it to you that I don't think that's an effective way to win the game. Very early, sure, targets are roughly equal and I'll hit whoever's open if it doesn't leave me vulnerable. Once the game has developed though, there's usually a primary target, and if I can't hit them because of a vow they've played on my creature, there's a good chance I'm just not attacking unless the game is quite well balanced or I have powerful attack/saboteur triggers (or I'm in the lead). Because now the attacked player is motivated to use their removal and/or attacks on me, putting the ahead player even further ahead while we're squabbling. Especially in a voltron situation. I can't think of many more effective ways to lose than to kill the players you can deal with, and then leave yourself in a 1v1 game against an opponent with your primary wincon pacified. The only way I'd consider doing that is if I had (likely multiple) answers for the aura, and strong reason not to consider the vow player a threat (although ofc playing a vow is a pretty strong indicator that they're playing a weak deck).

[Antis]

Evershrike would be such a sweet commander if it were legendary.

Bah, didn't stop me =) In fact, I'm planning to make a thread here with my build tomorrow, so you can check that if you're interested. I've always described it as a table-friendlier Uril.

[onering]

I feel like this is a massively oversimplified view of table politics? There's not always a clear "ahead" and "behind". Even when there is, attacks don't exclusively go at the player who is ahead. Oftentimes, the player who is ahead is ahead because they have a better board position, which makes it rather difficult to profitably attack them. This leads to many attacks being decided by who's open, rather than who's ahead. These vows can help with nudging those attacks into other players, while also beefing whatever it is up enough to change the calculus of "who's open".

Pretty sure that's just a longer version of what you quoted within my response:

Of course there's a middle ground where it might actually steer the creature to attack in another direction, but imo that range is too narrow for a card like this to not suck.

Pretty sure that its also a more detailed version that makes points that your sentence didn't cover. He's right, just because you're behind doesn't mean you won't be attacked, especially when it comes to Voltron which wants to take players out individually and will often target whoever is open, because the fewer players Voltron faces the better its chances. In any case, not everyone plays optimally, and not everyone is good at magic, so while to you the grey area where it isn't clear who is ahead is a narrow band, its often much broader for others. And this leaves out the fact that even if you are clearly behind and they weren't going to attack you first anyway, playing a vow puts greater pressure on your other opponents while also ensuring that when player with the voltron or fatty DOES get around to attacking you, either because you caught up or you're the last one left, they can't.

As simple removal, there are definitely better cards. These are semi removal spells that help pressure other opponents. As I said, that's usually not good enough, even when you throw in the option of enchanting your commander. In the right decks though, they can put in work. And what they do doesn't really rely on politics, because you don't actually have to convince anyone of anything most of the time. No deals, nothing, just stop the creature from attacking you and let it continue to attack others. If you try to convince that opponent to attack others when they otherwise wouldn't, sure that's political, but that situation exists with or without the vow, and all the vow does is remove the option of attacking you or your planes walkers. I'd say these aren't any more political than Sphere of Safety or other effects that dissuade attacks against you based solely on their effect, without any table talk or deals or anything else.

[3drinks]

Sunday, November 29th,2020; Ornithopter|mps

So how do we feel about nature's little marvel? The most inoccuous little cog or what?

[DirkGently]

Very OP if you don't understand card advantage.

I mean, 0-cmc artifacts have roles in mostly nasty storm decks. Don't think I've ever had a deck where I wanted to play it, though I could imagine wanting to play it with a commander that triggers whenever one of your creatures attacks or something.

[materpillar]

Sunday, November 29th,2020; Ornithopter|mps

So how do we feel about nature's little marvel? The most inoccuous little cog or what?

Usually this card is only used to do something very unfair so I tend to steer clear of it.

[Mookie]

Ornithopter is an extremely efficient spell, as zero mana spells tend to be. The primary reason to run it is due to it being a free artifact creature. If you have a Glimpse of Nature effect like Chulane, Teller of Tales or Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain, it may be worth running Ornithopter just to trigger them and contribute to the storm count. Similar story for Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle. Also works well with Enduring Renewal shenanigans.

On the other hand, if you don't have a way to turn Ornithopter directly into another card, I'd usually pass on it. A 0/2 flyer is okay for carrying Swords or other equipment that wants to go on evasive creatures, but having zero power otherwise makes it pretty unimpactful. It can power up Akiri, Line-Slinger or other artifact-friendly commanders, but there are enough cheap artifacts that you really don't need to run something this niche. I could see running it in a Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow deck for the evasion, although you're still competing against Spectral Sailor and other Flying Men-with-upside options.

I'll call out Memnite as a similar card, trading evasion for Skullclamp-friendliness. Hope of Ghirapur is an option if you really want a Thopter in the command zone.

[Toshi]

I just love this little bugger.
While it's the usual sac fodder and combo piece in my Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle deck, i love it even more so in my Lazav, the Multifarious deck.
Zero mana for repeatable evasion is just absurd and no rare pick for Entomb|umas and Buried Alive|uma packages.

[Sinis]

Sunday, November 29th,2020; Ornithopter

It was okay in Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow ninjas, on account of being free and having evasion. I can't recall having played it elsewhere.

[onering]

Sunday, November 29th,2020; Ornithopter|mps

So how do we feel about nature's little marvel? The most inoccuous little cog or what?

I'll just say that the Consulate knew what they were talking about when they issued that directive.

[3drinks]

Monday, November 30th, 2020; Vhati il-Dal|tmp

This guy holds a very special place in my heart and the first commander I ever optimized. I played this guy for what seemed a year before it morphed from the deck playing Serrated Arrows and Serrated Biskelion with a Midnight Banshee at the top end, to a Horobi, Death's Wail that just wanted to kill your stuff with anything and troll equipment users. It was extra hilarious to kill things with a Flying Carpet 😂.

Also of topical relevance I suppose. Neither of those commanders are especially good at table politics it turns out 👀

[Sinis]

Monday, November 30th, 2020; Vhati il-Dal

This guy holds a very special place in my heart and the first commander I ever optimized. I played this guy for what seemed a year before it morphed from the deck playing Serrated Arrows and Serrated Biskelion with a Midnight Banshee at the top end, to a ...

I never played him, but I thought of doing it a few times. I just felt there was never enough strategic depth to him; great with a damage here and there, or -1/-1 counters, but beyond that... maybe not?

... Horobi, Death's Wail that just wanted to kill your stuff with anything and troll equipment users. It was extra hilarious to kill things with a Flying Carpet .

Also of topical relevance I suppose. Neither of those commanders are especially good at table politics it turns out

Horobi, however, I played extensively back in 2009-10. I even bought an original Urborg, Shizo, Death's Storehouse, Desert, and Tower of the Magistrate so I could trivially target things. I found more than anything I didn't table Horobi much, and he didn't ever really stick; he was a big play maker with Touch of Darkness or similar cards, but by the end, gameplay would look like 'Resolve Horobi → put a bunch of activated abilities or spells, trigger Horobi a few times, hold priority → High Market/Phyrexian Tower Horobi → Okay, you can respond now.'

It was weird, but it worked.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Vhati's been power crept into ignominy but he's still a unique effect if nothing else. That all being said, this is easily the most forgettable golgari commander after Iname as One IMHO.

Edit: I also think he's the only legend to be on the ass end of his own flavor text. What a whammy.

[Mookie]

Vhati il-Dal is cool, but yeah, definitely a victim of power creep. There are a bunch of ways to turn his ability into outright removal (Staff of Nin, Night of Souls' Betrayal, etc), but removal isn't something Golgari decks traditionally lack. I will call out Doran, the Siege Tower as one deck where it may make sense, but that's still more a cute interaction than actually good.

[DirkGently]

Also of topical relevance I suppose. Neither of those commanders are especially good at table politics it turns out 👀

I disagree with this, at least as far as Vhati is concerned. The fact that he kinda needs assistance to actually kill something makes him relatively innocuous (compared to, say, Visara the Dreadful), and he can play teammate by Forcefielding for you or your temporary ally.

Honestly, the more I think about it, I'd say he's pretty darn political, or at least has the potential to be. 8/10 on the Phelddagrif scale I just made up (1 being Narset or some other "apparently we need to kill you before we can have a real game" commander, 10 being...well, you know )

[3drinks]

Tuesday, December 1st, 2020; The ABU Duals

Hmm. This should be a lively and productive discussion day. Inb4 at least two fights over the reserve list are started. 🙄

[Rumpy5897]

There's a reason why eternal formats with access to the entire card pool converged on duals + fetches as their mana base of choice. Land type get allows reliable access to colours, while all competing 2-colour lands come locked into what it says on the card. That said, the setup is an insane monetary investment, and improvements to the deck should be made elsewhere before the possibility is entertained. Still, when I pulled out the bicycles for these in Ghired, I felt the difference. It's kind of funny, really - a few lands that come in untapped rather than tapped. Yet the deck starts running smoother.

As hinted with the bicycles, there are other cycles that have land types though, which are less prohibitive to the wallet. An interesting discussion would be when those merit running. Fetches aside, the main synergy is green land-type gets. I'd totally run bicycles in a budget Gx mana base to nab them with Skyshroud Claims or whatever.

[Toshi]

I'm not too concerned about the inflated prices of ABUR duals and fetches, to be quite honest. They are there to grab for maxed out cEDH decks and ultra bling players. And even if they were to reprint them (Secret Lair lolz), can you imagine in how many products they would have to put them in a considerably short time span, so that prices would actually drop significantly!? That's just not going to happen, i'm afraid.

Every other year there's a new cycle of fixing lands (e.g. Pathways), completed Cycles (e.g. BBD duals) and Reprints (e.g. Shocks). If it's just the fixing you're looking for, you can build several top notch mana bases for the price of a single OG Dual. Yup, different story with Fetches and Landfall as an increasingly popular archetype.
That's not to say i wouldn't run them and all possible Fetches in every single one of my decks. And of course 4-5C get a lot better with Duals and Fetches, but it is my firm believe that going up colors should come with considerable downsides - even if "only" monetarily.

As hinted with the bicycles, there are other cycles that have land types though, which are less prohibitive to the wallet. An interesting discussion would be when those merit running.

It all depends on what you're trying to achieve and how.
Aside from being 4C or 5C I don't see many reasons not to run a full suite of ABUR duals, Bicycles, Shocks, maybe even Tangos, since there are plenty of things to do with them:
Abolish & Foil
Anger & Filth
Arbor Elf
Bubbling Muck, Crypt Ghast, High Tide et al
Cabal Coffers - should've really picked one up when they were less than half of its current price
Castle Locthwain, Mystic Sanctuary et al
Clifftop Retreat, Tainted Peak et al
Defile & Mutilate
Duergar Hedge-Mage et al
Emeria, the Sky Ruin & Emeria Shepherd
Krosan Verge
Scourge of Fleets
Tithe
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
...
Having nonbasics with land types opens up to so many things and can even make them viable with a lean basic land count.

[Antis]

Where I'm from, before EDH took proper root here, there was a period when 100-card commandereless singletons were popular. I've built one of those and eventually got to the point of getting a set of duals for it. The only problem from my current standpoint is, the deck had only four colors, which means my set of duals, which I got in the good days of yore for less than tenth of their current worth, only contains six of them — I'm missing all then ones with red. I've later converted the deck into a Child of Alara Commander, but only added two red cards, so I never completed the set. Now I'm stuck in the limbo of indeciseveness as to whether I should just let it be as-is or if I should take the deck apart (let's face it, Child of Alara nuke-a-ton is not exactly the friendliest deck around, which is why I've not played it in ages).

[materpillar]

I personally dislike how much fetchlands slow down games, especially when people wait for the "optimal" time of cracking them during your endstep. I don't particularly find the cards or strategies fetch lands open up to be that interesting either. ABU duals are a huge reason that fetches are so good. Most of my dislike of ABU duals stems from my dislike of fetches.

Also, ABU duals create a huge divide between the haves and the have nots since there is so much power in a perfect mana base that ETB untapped.

I only have a Tundra and I personally kick myself for not buying a ton of these a decade ago but I hate spending money on a good mana base. Mana bases are so boring.

[DirkGently]

Lol, maybe the more likely argument is me haranguing on tango lands. God, I just hate them so much.

I don't think there's too much to say about abu duals: they're obviously the best duals, especially when fetches are involved (which, if you can afford abu duals, you can afford fetches). They're also not the best use of money unless you're absolutely capping off the power level of your deck. Even more expensive cards are probably better bang for buck, though they're generally less versatile for moving between decks.

I do find it kinda dumb when people say that commander is expensive because of duals or other high-priced reserved list cards. You don't need duals, you really don't.

[3drinks]

Let's be honest, fetches aren't so good because ABUs exist. There's still tangos, bicycles, and now triomes, and hey don't forget they can find basics too! Fetches are so good because they are the penultimate fixing you can get. Speaking as someone that does prioritize types over nontyped lands, you simply can't fully fathom how much stronger it is until you've played the full suite. You'll never go back, and you'll never be able to figure out how you didn't start with the setup ages ago - cost permitting.

And this even goes for single colour decks (with vista and fabled passage). It's a true night and day experience and I wholeheartedly encourage anyone to make the jump on the full fetch dual mana base if they have said disposable income for them.

Inb4 Dirk and I argue over the playability of the tango lands. It takes two to tango bay bay!

[Dunharrow]

Strictly worse than shocklands in Marchesa, the Black Rose, 0/10.

Okay, seriously though - there is a solid argument that mana should not be a barrier to entry into any format. With MTGO, I would say it is guaranteed that the reserved list will never be lifted, which means that as time goes on people playing Vintage and Legacy will end up playing MTGO only. There is no real need to do anything about availability as far as these formats are concerned.

Since Commander remains a social format, it will never migrate to MTGO in the same way. I think, for the health of Commander, these lands should be banned. Maybe not now, but eventually. I just think they harm the format more than they help it, and that it will only worsen with time.

[Guardman]

I have a playset of Bayou (I think they are Revised, but might be unlimited) that I got back when I played Legacy (for $20 a piece) (and there was a devout Legacy scene in my area). But now, I don't play them in my EDH decks that are Black-Green. Why? Not that great a reason to. There are plenty of substitute lands that work almost as well to make a mana base and I really don't feel like putting a card that costs a couple hundred dollars into an EDH deck when it only provides a very slight advantage.