Don’t play wraths. Or is the casual crowd going too far?

[toctheyounger]

I'm actually gonna say the best gameplay vids I've seen out there of late are from CovertgoBlue. His worst possible show is actually pretty good. Its a fixed pod, so you get to know the players, and naturally they're all different. For example I've really enjoyed watching Shea go from relative edh scrub to actually a pretty astute player with good threat assessment. Good mid to high level play with some ups and downs and good banter. They do a good job of embodying an LGS vibe.

I hate your deck is good for production value, but with all of the drama surrounding the host I wouldn't expect it to ever be at the forefront of the scene moving forward.

Play to Win is where its at for high level gameplay. Dylan and Cam are really nice guys and their pal Tyler is a monster at the table. His plays are SO tight. Its cedh, so take that for what it is, but its good regardless. I really dislike the commentated gameplay that seems to come with cedh, which these guys don't do. It's nice and natural gameplay at a high level, they run through misplays and strategy interspersed and its a nice watch altogether.

Relating back to OP, PleasantKenobi has done some EDH play too. His EDH and chill is fine, just your standard spell table pandemic play, but he did a 1v1 series with his pal Rob that was really nice. Just a great vibe between two close friends, very nice to watch.

[PrimevalCommander]

I will say, (instant speed) spot removal is winning me more games than wipes. Just this weekend I won multiple games off the back of well timed instant interaction, and I think I played 2 board wipes in 4 games. One Ezuri's Predation, which did great things netting me 28 4/4's, and one Martial Coup paired with Grand Crescendo out of the unaltered Cabaretii Precon for a build-your-own Plague Wind. The Ezuri's Predation didn't win me the game because someone Tragic Arroganced me immediately after I cast it . Not sure why he plays that card anyway... oh yeah, because I helped build his deck .

Boseiju, Who Endures is 2:2 in getting me out of tight spots in the mid-late game. Really loving that land so far. Makes me wonder if Ondu Inversion // Ondu Skyruins could be as useful. May need to get one of those and put it in a land slot instead of spell slot. The other MDFC land/spells I put in spell slots since that is what I expect their primary mode to be, where the Inversion would be land first-wipe second.

Also while it does bug me to see gameplay videos with obvious play mistakes and serious lapses in threat assessment, it is unfair to expect perfection in multiplayer casual games. They are people who like commander, and happen to have built a successful streaming channel. Everyone makes mistakes and not every EDHtuber has been playing since '98 like the old chaps here

[Rumpy5897]

Wrath-wise, I tend to play decks that need to be wiped within the confines of the group rather than decks that would aim to do the wiping. That said, even the comparably aggro decks are rocking Blasphemous Act, and come with ways to abuse it to their advantage. My slower Daxos deck is rather wipe-heavy, and blowing up the board is a common mid-game play to stabilise. That, or gumming the board up beyond reason and ripping an asymmetric wipe into an alpha strike

MTG content is, well, content. Tends to be shallow. There are quotas to hit, need to keep churning stuff out to stay relevant. This applies to YouTube, this applies to deck articles. It's hard to find quality stuff, and most of it comes in the form of creators like Rhystic Studies who eschew a conventional release schedule and drop stuff at their own pace. One could point out that since finishing grad school, Sam has shown signs of selling out, what with taking on sponsorships and releasing a staggering video a month However, the quality hasn't dipped one bit. Think he's just shifted to spending more of his time on this stuff.

The issue with the big content creators is that they got big doing a particular thing, and then they tried to branch out to rather mixed results.

• Prof's cardboard accessory reviews are on point, and most of the commentary points he's championed over the years have been good. Recently he's had some hot takes like basic land secret lairs being bad, which I feel may be trying to coax out clicks rather than anything else. Also, he becomes unbelievably annoying the moment someone else appears on screen in unscripted content with him. The only time it works is with Kyle Hill, as they have a weirdly compatible electric energy.
• Command Zone's formula must have worn out at some point prior to me starting to listen the podcast. That, or I just find podcasts a colossal waste of time - all of their shows feel like they could make for a mildly entertaining short article to read in a minute or so. Credit where credit is due, the stats episodes they did a while back made for a nice bird's eye view of some format trends. Weirdly enough, I like their gameplay... but not their main show. Extra Turns is the standard to which any gameplay-minded series should aspire to, with crisp pacing, clear presentation, and even occasional bits of table banter. Game Knights is a bit too ridiculous for its own good though.
• Commander's Quarters rose to prominence making budget deck techs, and I'm pretty sure he's still decent at that. Watching him try to expand has been painful though. He started off with a few reasonable take videos, which encouraged him to explore a more general space... only to realise he doesn't really have much to say. He tried ripping off pretty much anything he could get his hands on, he had a Command Zone era, he even did a Hot Ones clone once. Now he's become reactionary clickbait, loads of "OVERPOWERED" "DISGUSTING" "EXPEN$IVE" in his thumbnails. Why am I still subbed to him? I really like his gameplay. The base group is fantastically assembled. Eddie the pragmatic power player, Alec the Johnny, Mitch the budget scrub trying to make it work, Eric the simple deck wielder. It took them a couple episodes, but they loosened up on camera and have great chemistry. Some sort of running gag always materialises, and adds a nice sense of continuity to the game. The pods could be more balanced, or at least aware of certain gameplay patterns. Also, his most recent episodes have been with a different roster of players who haven't quite gotten over their camera-shyness yet.
• PK is experimenting with ironic title/thumbnail clickbait, but his content has remained largely unchanged for now. His gameplay narrative is colourful and engaging, and he's started becoming more comfortable sharing his takes on various MTG matters once he started co-hosting a podcast with Prof. I find his opinions largely agreeable, though his protracted campaign trying to get EDH players to stop whining that started this thread in the first place is somewhat grating. That said, he comes from a background of playing hateful decks in eternal formats.

Funnily enough, the content I enjoy most after Rhystic Studies is MTGRemy. Just nice, light hearted joke stuff. MTG Melvin was very good, but has been quiet for a while now. I like Quest for the Janklord for the premise and story, but the gameplay is dull through an uncanny combination of lifeless players and sluggish editing. I'd be happy to check out other creators, so feel free to keep dropping some that would be worth checking out. I've been toying with the idea of trying to start a thread about this sort of stuff, but this will do by proxy

Also isn't it funny how on one hand we're complaining about the absolute lack of polish on EDH content, yet on the other this stuff is blamed for popularising optimisation to the player populace and creeping the format's power up?

[duducrash]

So, my opinion on random channels :

PleasantKenobi imho is a net negative for the community. he is ALWAYS complaining, which fosters the most toxic communities possible. Then he will pick fights with casuals on twitter quote RTing them and of course the fanbase while destroy some poor person mentions because he thinks Archon of Emeria is a boring card or something like that.

I like some of tolarian community college but I think he loses himself sometimes in the middle of the constant waves of criticism. Secret lair bit got old, baldurs gate cards having little secondary market is totally off while barely talking about everything else is no good. It lacks nuance. I also got unreasonably upset while in a video he kept talking about how Magali Villeneuve was his favorite artist but he couldnt be bothered to google how to pronouce her name. Its feels pretty off to be such a harsh judge when you cant even put this minimum research.

Command Zone : games feel scripted sometimes, but they have production value. My friend who didnt like magic saw 3 episodes because of guests then got into mtg. The podcast itsef its of little to no value to me.

Edhrec cast : broad subiects that dont get anywhere more often than not, but I do like the cast I think they work well tohether and are often funny. Their observatiojs are anedoctes and when you listen to it much I think you get to understand them a little bit. I like them

People that open product : who the %$#% decided that the venn diagram of random nerds opening mtg cards online and internet white supremacists would be so close to a perfect circle?

Commander quarters : isnt he the guy who attempted to "throw a coup d'état" against the rules committee over a secret lair? A secret lair that I was REALLY upset about, mind you, but this grown man with thousand of subscribers really thought "yeah, these folk's cultivated the biggest community in this 25 year old game. Did all the base work, created rules, curated the community and it got so big I can make a life out of questionable content I put out for a community that existe only because of them. But well, they screwed up big time this time. Its time for me to take over"

Random mtg channels : a 45 year old dude with a really poor thumbnail titled : "MTG CRISIS, WOTC SCREWED UP THIS TIME!" and then the video is about double masters having a lower print run.

Sam from Rhystic Studies works really hard with really nice ideas. I enjoy it.

Spicy8rack im often entertained by their work.

Gameplay channels : they dont announce themselves as master players (like Josh Lee from CZ for example) they are just regular folks that like the game and are playing it. I have no hate for a regular person posting their hobby online.



Edit : what I would like to see in mtg content

I would love Channels that did series following their decks. Yeah its fun to ser random new/obscure/niche commanders, but the journey with decks isnt like that. Ive been playing the same deck since I started playing EDH. And to a point is somewhat of a Theseus ship by now. As I play more and more cards come out I am constantly upgrading (and sometimes downgrading if the meta calls for it.) cards I loved proved me wrong and vice versa. There are plenty of primers here and one single primer holds more debate and valuable learning opportunities than most content.

I have a little trouble speaking and have been trough a bunch of speech therapy (I talk really fast and stutter sometimes. And when I notice someone noticing it, it gets worse and worse) During the pandemic I created an youtube channel to upload "what ive been reading" and similar stuff, it was a nice opportunity for me to watch my speech rhythm and speaking in public. Now my career has led me to international waters I think I'll start posting my decks and updates on youtube in english to train my conversation skills in english

[toctheyounger]

Huh. That take on Kenobi does surprise me. He can be prone to hyperbole and swears a lot but he's no more negative than the Prof, and its usually directed towards WotC. And let's be honest, most of the time they %$#%$#% well deserve it. I'm fully in support of anyone who calls them on their predatory sales strategies.

As for social presence, I'm not on any open platforms, so I haven't seen what he's like in the twittersphere but heckling random folk does seem at least tangentially off character. I could be wrong, I don't know for sure and you're of course entitled to your opinion.

Comparatively at least, there's at least some decent upstanding pillars of the community even if the content isn't for everyone. I think its generally a good thing given some of the characters who are and have been out there: without naming names theres one guy who bullied a complainer out of the community with constant misogynist incel rants and a guy who has a history of manipulating his employees on a film set in order to produce nude content. Given all that I don't think Vince even close to represents the worst the mtg content community has. I get that we don't compare to the lowest common denominator, but...y'know...it could be worse.

I thought a little more on which of the big creators I consider the worst influencers in terms of the presence they put out into the aether, and it pains me to say but I think Mitch from Commander's Quarters is probably the biggest net negative. His content is great generally, especially for someone starting into the format or someone looking for hidden gems. But watching him throw his toys out of the cot and ironically attempt to splinter off from edh when Golos got banned and with the Walking Dead SL was truly pathetic. If anything both were really good examples of how not to react when things don't go your way.

[duducrash]

As for social presence, I'm not on any open platforms, so I haven't seen what he's like in the twittersphere but heckling random folk does seem at least tangentially off character. I could be wrong, I don't know for sure and you're of course entitled to your opinion.

It has happened a few times. Notably in february of 2022 when some magic personalities took issue with PK "dunking" on people over quote retweets on people with much much smaller followings. This tweet page that archives drama made a small thread on this
Actually the original tweet from the guy who called PK out is a good example of the fanbase he has been directing to people ( PK even said what he didnt wasnt the best at the time. I know it wasn't the first for I had seen it a few times before. I know he still has the bait of quote RTing someone. Be it in MTG, politics or warhammer to debate / engage on discourse. Bringing his follower base into the flame wars.

[toctheyounger]

As for social presence, I'm not on any open platforms, so I haven't seen what he's like in the twittersphere but heckling random folk does seem at least tangentially off character. I could be wrong, I don't know for sure and you're of course entitled to your opinion.

It has happened a few times. Notably in february of 2022 when some magic personalities took issue with PK "dunking" on people over quote retweets on people with much much smaller followings. This tweet page that archives drama made a small thread on this
Actually the original tweet from the guy who called PK out is a good example of the fanbase he has been directing to people ( PK even said what he didnt wasnt the best at the time. I know it wasn't the first for I had seen it a few times before. I know he still has the bait of quote RTing someone. Be it in MTG, politics or warhammer to debate / engage on discourse. Bringing his follower base into the flame wars.

Fair enough. Like I say, I'm not into social so unless it's on YT or literally in the news I don't see it. Thats pretty %$#% and a little disappointing. Fwiw, Nestico is exactly the same sort of %$#% that Kenobi can be. If it isn't edgy he won't say it. He lives to grate on people by his own admission.

Edit - actually diving into this it seems like Vince made a mistake in not realizing his scope and what followers on social are capable of, became contrite and subsequently apologized to Cal, at which point Nestico decided to jump on board. If anything it kinda reflects worse on Nestice than Vince. Which completely fits with the sort of persona Nestico has cultivated anyway.

I know Vince has been on a few of the cedh podcasts recently (he plays a lot of legacy death and taxes and that translates well over to mono white cedh) so I think whatever bad blood mightve been cultivated there has most likely been laid to rest.

[TheGildedGoose]

Imagine using Twitter to talk about anything.

[RxPhantom]

Twitter is a wasteland of narcissistic nothing, a pointless void. I joined recently to submit a decklist to the Commander Vs. crew. It's horrid. The internet allows people to be the worst version of themselves and some people take full advantage. Actually, a lot of people have really revealed themselves to be awful. IHYD exploded in popularity, and it didn't take too long to find out that one host is a toxic jerk and the other is a predatory scumbag.

I still like the Prof though I understand why someone may not. I've become a huge fan of Spice8Rack. One of the highest complements I can give to a joke is to laugh out loud when I'm by myself. His videos do that for me quite often. Other than Prof and Spice though...it's really hard to find compelling content made by someone with an appealing personality. And watching people play on Twitch is torturous.

[toctheyounger]

Twitter is a wasteland of narcissistic nothing, a pointless void. I joined recently to submit a decklist to the Commander Vs. crew. It's horrid. The internet allows people to be the worst version of themselves and some people take full advantage. Actually, a lot of people have really revealed themselves to be awful. IHYD exploded in popularity, and it didn't take too long to find out that one host is a toxic jerk and the other is a predatory scumbag.

I still like the Prof though I understand why someone may not. I've become a huge fan of Spice8Rack. One of the highest complements I can give to a joke is to laugh out loud when I'm by myself. His videos do that for me quite often. Other than Prof and Spice though...it's really hard to find compelling content made by someone with an appealing personality. And watching people play on Twitch is torturous.

Yeah IHYD parted ways because Joe was being a price to discord members. Turns out Lynch is just a different variant of jerk. People do make mistakes, but his window of owning it and making the issue right has well and truly closed with not a word from him, so for me watching his content leaves a lot to be desired now. Joe, not so much, but his content is just kinda terrible anyway. His games are meant to be casual, so yiu hear more from the peanut gallery than the players and there's been a few pubstomps too. It leaves a bit to be desired.

I'll second prof and spice, and some of the others here with Sam from Rhystic Studies as the most commendable content creators in the game. Whether you like them or not they are all respectable folk who shoot straight, or in Sam's case just don't court controversy whatsoever.

But yeah, Twitter is %$#% awful for a multitude of reasons.

[DirkGently]

Never about curve or opening hand fixing or whatever. No balancing of ramp and card draw, no thinking about sequencing of ramp or number and colors of lands to play.

When I do see people talk about those sorts of things, it's usually along the lines of "every deck should have 10 pieces of ramp and 10 draw" or "you should never have more than 3 7-drops", rather than starting from a plan and identifying the best structure to fit that plan.

On one hand, it's good that every deck is its own journey that one must frequently tread alone - huge part of what I love about the format - but it does seem to result in weak content and a lack of good information, with the only people willing to speak authoritatively to what "your deck needs" are usually overconfident blowhards.

[Gentle Giant]

Regarding quality content: I don't think, given the algorithms of YouTube, that it's a good medium for the content some of you would be interested in. Written pieces work better (and there have been such pieces discussing mana distribution based on colour pips for example).
Most content lacks depth either due to the fact that it serves a large audience, so some information is not relevant or too complex for a segment they're targeting, or because the content would be too lengthy, making it not enjoyable to watch (and read mind you, even written pieces on MTG websites are subject to word limits).
Lastly, I fully agree with @pokken and @Rumpy5897 : I'm not sure more pieces on optimization/consistency are necessarily a good thing, especially if they'd reach a large audience and convey a prescriptive style of information, further pushing out the option of low powered games at an LGS for example. Similar to Pokken, I'd be more interested in people's reasoning for creating a specific experience à la @tstorm823 's Zedruu (which is awesome).

[pokken]

I am definitely a giant optimization dork for the record and some of my decks try super hard (ephara has been accused of being cedh...albeit by a near cedh Hinata deck that only lost due to his hubris:P). I'm just most interested in optimizing play quality and experiences these days, which while it sometimes correlates with a strong deck, tends to tangent off of power level somewhere

[Gentle Giant]

I am definitely a giant optimization dork for the record and some of my decks try super hard (ephara has been accused of being cedh...albeit by a near cedh Hinata deck that only lost due to his hubris:P). I'm just most interested in optimizing play quality and experiences these days, which while it sometimes correlates with a strong deck, tends to tangent off of power level somewhere

I think a lot of people here have that tuning fever, regardless of goal

It's interesting to see, 'cause I don't have that urge at all, aside from the times where I see new wacky cards that fit my existing plethora of decks (and even then I'm often more inclined to let that stash of potentials grow until it's better to scrap the entire deck and start anew).

The perspective of intended play experience is interesting to me too though. And it pertains a lot to this thread's topic too: having a pod with plentiful wraths has a major impact on viable (and enjoyable, depending on preferences) lines of play/strategies. For example, some people simply hate holding back cards and love overcommitting (they wouldn't even call it that). While one wrath might not be a bummer, having the stereotypical meta where a wrath happens every two turn cycles, these players would be quite frustrated. That's not even addressing your own intentions for including a wrath during deckbuilding.. there are a lot of angles at which this topic can be discussed, and it isn't discussed enough by content creators.

[motleyslayer]

I haven't played with many of my old groups since covid, but I haven't met anyone with this view on wraths yet. I feel that every deck should run at least 3-5 wraths

[toctheyounger]

Never about curve or opening hand fixing or whatever. No balancing of ramp and card draw, no thinking about sequencing of ramp or number and colors of lands to play.

When I do see people talk about those sorts of things, it's usually along the lines of "every deck should have 10 pieces of ramp and 10 draw" or "you should never have more than 3 7-drops", rather than starting from a plan and identifying the best structure to fit that plan.

On one hand, it's good that every deck is its own journey that one must frequently tread alone - huge part of what I love about the format - but it does seem to result in weak content and a lack of good information, with the only people willing to speak authoritatively to what "your deck needs" are usually overconfident blowhards.

One creator I know of that has just started doing this sort of thing is Rebell Son. Its a series called commabder school, and while they are a cedh player a lot of the vids so far translate over really well and are generally quite astute without saying 'run this' or 'only have 4 of these' or whatever.

They're definitely not the most massively in depth vids, theyre usually around the ten minute mark. But Rebell is a really good brewer and player abd the series they're doing is shaping up as pretty valuable content in my opinion.

[EonAon]

Now heres a good add on question, by CC how costly a wrath effect should be? 4cc is about the old standard being there in Wrath of God but where should it top out?

[DirkGently]

Well obviously any wrath needs to compete with what came before. So if it costs more than 4 it better have a bonus of some sort. Wiping non creatures, alternative modes, potential for asymmetry, an extra resource like cards, life, or tokens. The worthwhile cost is only limited by how strong those bonuses are.

Which ones you actually play obviously depends on your plan. Winds of Rath is amazing for an aura build, but terrible outside of it. Farewell is great if you don't expect to wipe early, but might not be worth it for a deck in a fast meta. Hour of Revelation is insane, but might not be good if you rely on artifacts or enchantments. Etc etc.

[hyalopterouslemur]

Can we PLEASE understand the difference between being casual and being a scrub?

If you have ever whinged about a wrath or something like Mind Rot or Stone Rain or Cancel, you're a scrub.