[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Rishkar, Peema Renegade

[toctheyounger]

Jesus christ did this RCOTD ever escalate. Ngl, this argument sort of feels like the 'haves' sneering down at the 'have-nots'. Which is 100% the %$#% part of the format. Apologies if I'm reading that wrong, but good mana is single handedly the most expensive part of the game and I'm tired of justifying why I don't run optimal pieces in my decks when the answer should be fairly obvious. That's not pointed at anyone weighing in here, it's just how I feel in general.

Look, this card isn't going to solve your 'I can't afford fetches and shocks for every deck I run' woes, but it goes some of the way for a single card. Will it single handedly fix your woes? Absolutely not, and that flaw you can put squarely at the feet of the brewer, not the card itself. Relying on any single card in the 99 to run your deck smoothly is a bad idea.

That being said, if you have a copy and don't have access to shocks, fetches, ABUR's and the like there's no real reason not to run it as part of a color fixing suite. There are more efficient rocks with a better ROI, but between the fact that you can use it the turn you cast it for 33% ROI and immediate fixing of colours, it's worth a look in colours that struggle to blend or ramp, like say Esper or Grixis. Would I run Fellwar Stone or Arcane Signet ahead of it? Yes. Would I buy the same ahead of it? Yes. If I had it in my folder and it could pull some weight in my deck, would I include it? Yes.

[materpillar]

wellthisescalatedquickly.gif

I mean...

....they also use it to justify a sloppily created manabase. Look, it's not hard to create a good, reliable, sturdy manabase, and with responsible, judicious play and thought, you can fetch and search for the colours you need.

You started this card off by saying everyone who plays this card is sloppy and that they're irresponsible and have poor judgement for running it. It isn't surprising that people feel the need to defend themselves and their card choice. On top of which one of your solutions was to just "fetch and search for the colours" and some people literally cannot do this because they cannot afford fetches. While I'm sure it wasn't your intent, your post can easily be read as "get good scrubs, spend $70 on Scalding Tarn like me".

This was my immediate reaction to reading your post. Managing my mana base is the least enjoyable part of magic the gathering to me. I hate figuring out how many lands of each color I need. I hate buying lands more than "cool" cards. Chromatic Lantern dramatically lowers the barrier of entry for the deck to be able to cast every spell I draw. Sure as you slowly optimize a deck it should likely get cut. Not every deck needs to slowly get optimized to a power level where Chromatic Lantern isn't strong enough though. If you're playing at a powerlevel where it is strong enough it offers way more protection against color-screw (especially while casting multiple spells a turn) than any other rock.


Also, it's the only not on theme card I'll run in my Changeling tribal deck. It's a vital part of optimizing that deck. Fight me.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

wellthisescalatedquickly.gif

Yes, but it is beautiful, no? I personally love a good episode of Man vs Thread, and Dirk is fighting like a gladiator in the lion pit. Then you zoom all the way back for some perspective and remember this is largely about nothing important, and the circle is complete, entertainment achieved.

I love this website.

[MeowZeDung]

Couldn't agree with @toctheyounger or @materpillar more.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand that Chromatic Lantern is NOT the optimal choice as either a mana accelerant or a way to fix mana in 99% of decks with no budget. Yes, with an unlimited budget there are so many better options. Even WITH a budget there are a lot of better options for ramp/fixing, and no, Lantern should not be used as a way to excuse building a crap manabase. You can build a fine, albeit slower, manabase without fetches/duals.

That said, the player on a budget's "optimal" deck is going to be the one they can actually afford all 100 cards for. Scalding Tarn and Volcanic Island thus makes perfect mana anything but "optimal" for this player if they actually wanna, you know, play Magic. Said budget player should aim to run signets, talismans, tri-lands, tri-cycles, bi-cycles, painlands and whatever decent fixing they can afford before buying a lantern, of course. No disagreement there. But perhaps they opened lantern in a mystery booster or some commander product. Should they run it until they can afford better fixing? IMO, yes and - re-emphasizing what @toctheyounger said - as PART of a suite of fixing.

I really respect some of the regulars on these boards that clearly know what they are doing when deckbuilding and piloting. @DirkGently, @pokken, and @3drinks clearly know their stuff; I read their posts and primers and value their input immensely. I just want to get through to them sometimes that not everyone started playing back in the 90's or early 2000's and has a huge, glorious collection to deckbuild with. Nothing personal at all, it just comes up fairly often that a veteran player (not necessarily one of these chaps) casually posts: "You should be running <insert $35 card name here>, it's an absolute must include here", and it's really disheartening and frustrating. I can only imagine the number of visitors to this site who see something like that and go "Well, I WAS going to register a username and start posting, but I don't need to be budget-guilted. . . I'll go watch some Commander's Quarters instead."

I still maintain my other point too though, which is that Lantern can be a boon even in the late game when fixing is fine, at least in my experience with Kykar and decks with a similar spellslinger playstyle that often find themselves having a sudden spike in demand for 1-2 of the deck's colors on a big value or combo turn. Sometimes it's not the lantern that helps out, but rather a copied/recurred Turnabout, or Frantic Search, but lantern is one way that I have often turned my on-board Battlefield Forge and Sacred Foundry into blue sources when I needed them in addition to the other 7 blue sources I already had on board.

@MeowZeDung You said it lacked tarn/mesa. I'm just wondering why you're ignoring all the other fetches. (Most of which are cheaper, and you've already got the shocks at least.)

I mean your manabase looks fine for a medium-budget manabase, which is a fine place to be, I don't begrudge anyone their budget. But the way you described it, it sounded like you're 2 fetches away from perfection that would tip you over the edge to not needing lantern, and I'm not sure why those are the thing. There's still plenty of other options to improve the manabase besides those two specific cards.

Thank you for the comment about budget, since as you can see a lot of the friction over this card is the have/have not dynamic. That said, keep in mind that without OG Duals, Jeskai only has a handful of fetchable non-basics that make more than one color of mana: Raugrin Triome, the 3 shocks, Irrigated Farmland, Prairie Stream. Two of those enter tapped, full stop. Prairie Stream isn't always easy to have enter untapped, but it certainly can even in a Jeskai deck. The shocks' downside are negligible. So, yeah, I could invest in 4-5 of the other fetches before on-color tarn/mesa, but I question just how much value I would be gaining and if it's worth the $$$. The clearest benefit would be getting to add Mystic Sanctuary into the deck for shenanigans.

I think the real point of clarification here is this: I don't feel as though I need lantern to fix my mana in the early game. I rarely hit color screw with my current manabase. I DO feel as though it has made some wins possible a turn or two quicker, and with some degree of consistency. Perhaps it's a Kykar thing, where I feel great about saccing three spirits to drop lantern after drawing it and suddenly tripling my blue and/or white sources without having had to tap any of them.

[toctheyounger]

Nothing personal at all, it just comes up fairly often that a veteran player (not necessarily one of these chaps) casually posts: "You should be running <insert $35 card name here>, it's an absolute must include here", and it's really disheartening and frustrating. I can only imagine the number of visitors to this site who see something like that and go "Well, I WAS going to register a username and start posting, but I don't need to be budget-guilted. . . I'll go watch some Commander's Quarters instead."

Yeah, this does kinda suck. Not at all trying to throw anyone's access to quality cards back at them, but it is demoralising. You build with what you have, and most of the cards that get mentioned on the regular are out of my budget and probably always will be. We do what we can and if that means running Lantern, I'm personally ok with that.

I will say I think I've only got one copy now, and I think it's in either one of my 4 or 5 colour decks, where optimising lands is at it's most expensive. That being said, I don't think I'd ever critique someone for running Lantern if it's what they can afford.

[Dunharrow]

Toc and Meow, appreciate the posts. I mentioned I run lantern in 3 decks. Since I have 18-20 decks (I mean who can keep track), and because I do not like to move cards between decks, I do not have fetches and ABUR duals for all my decks. I know my 5 color The Ur-Dragon does not have an optimal mana base. It doesn't really have an optimal anything. The deck exists to turn dragons sideways. I would rate it as a 60-70% deck. I rarely have mana issues, but CL is in there as one way to facilitate casting Scourge of Valkas, Dragonlord Dromoka and Nicol Bolas on curve. The deck still works without it. It is just a way to facilitate playing out my spells.
The second decks that plays it is my 4-color Reyhan. This deck is super greedy on mana. It can be hard to play WW, GG, BB and UU in a single turn, but sometimes the deck needs to. CL helps me have a more explosive turn. No CL, less explosive turn. Since the deck performs so well, I would like to eventually optimize the mana, and CL will probably be dropped, but for now it pulls its weight.

The third deck is my highly tuned Marchesa, the Black Rose. Most of my lands enable detrone. Talking painlands, shocklands, fetches (including off-color), Fiery Islet, Ifnir Deadlands et al, Mana Confluence et al, Ancient Tomb, Barbarian Ring et al, and even Tarnished Citadel. The deck also plays Magus of the Moon. I play Urborg and CL to help with the pain lands - late game they can kill me if I don't have an out. Urborg doesn't help magus but the deck takes advantage by attacking with magus, sacrificing, casting spells, getting magus back at end step.

All this to say that CL is not just a mana rock - it can do some fun stuff too.

But if you are playing it as a mana rock that fixes your mana, don't feel bad about it - if you are 2 colors maybe rethink it though.

[3drinks]

You started this card off by saying everyone who plays this card is sloppy and that they're irresponsible and have poor judgement for running it. It isn't surprising that people feel the need to defend themselves and their card choice. On top of which one of your solutions was to just "fetch and search for the colours" and some people literally cannot do this because they cannot afford fetches. While I'm sure it wasn't your intent, your post can easily be read as "get good scrubs, spend $70 on Scalding Tarn like me".

This was my immediate reaction to reading your post. Managing my mana base is the least enjoyable part of magic the gathering to me. I hate figuring out how many lands of each color I need. I hate buying lands more than "cool" cards. Chromatic Lantern dramatically lowers the barrier of entry for the deck to be able to cast every spell I draw. Sure as you slowly optimize a deck it should likely get cut. Not every deck needs to slowly get optimized to a power level where Chromatic Lantern isn't strong enough though. If you're playing at a powerlevel where it is strong enough it offers way more protection against color-screw (especially while casting multiple spells a turn) than any other rock.

Whoa whoa whoa, that's not the angle I took at all. There's a very deliberate reason I used the verbiage "fetch or search", because yes, while I've made no bones about loving my eleven fetch and duals mana base, I specifically included search because effects a la Farseek, Rampant Growth, and Search for Tomorrow exist. Even cards like Fertile Ground, Trace of Abundance, and Utopia Sprawl, every one of these is cheap as cheap can be (with sprawl the highest of those at...what, $3?) and I would really use all of that before I ever touched a chromatic lantern. There's so many amazing options out there for less than three mana, and less dollars than an incredibly over-valued rock that I'd have to be incredibly deep into my options before this even became a glimpse on my radar.

I see where the miscommunication is happening in the sloppy mana comment, so allow me to clarify since I wrote that at 2:30am as I was getting ready for work, as opposed to now where it's "prevening". In my experiences, what I see is people that put very little care into their mana (by far the most important resource, albeit however mundane and "basic" it must feel to polish), and then justify that hasty decision with "well I have a lantern so I'm gonna be OK". And that's information I've picked up over the years since RTR of my blowing so many lanterns up with my Viashino Heretics and Goblin Vandals. What my comment was getting at was that this card is vastly overplayed and over-relied on for those reasons, and not for any type of budget reason. If you have fixed assets, by all means, play what you can afford, no harm no foul. For sure I'm the last one that would ever shame anyone for not shuffling their cheque book into their library at the start of a game. Just because I'm blessed to have built a collection over years doesn't mean that everyone else is. And I'm also more than happy to help anyone - A N Y B O D Y - learn how to not just optimize their mana to whatever level they wish to bring it to, but also how to protect it and reinforce it so as to have minimal, if any, interruptions to the strategy they wish to apply to the game in question. Go look to the white border Kaalia stuff in my Primer, I have that exact list sleeved up, and I do play it from time to time. I wouldn't suggest anyone to do otherwise if I weren't willing. Because I'm willing and actively use it, I know of the struggles that come from the less polished mana - they're real, but we can fix them at every level. And it doesn't ever involve a three mana rock to do so.

[Hermes_]

. I know my 5 color The Ur-Dragon does not have an optimal mana base. It doesn't really have an optimal anything.

I also have that deck well the percon anyway I've slowly been upgrading with AoV a few other cards, and I would honestly add the lantern to it.

[Sinis]

Ngl, this argument sort of feels like the 'haves' sneering down at the 'have-nots'. Which is 100% the %$#% part of the format. Apologies if I'm reading that wrong, but good mana is single handedly the most expensive part of the game and I'm tired of justifying why I don't run optimal pieces in my decks when the answer should be fairly obvious.

For my part, that wasn't my intent. I was just thinking of the applications of having a lot of the same mana. Though, I do have the privilege of having lots of fixing and powerful lands, so, it's true that I won't see it the same way as someone with less.

That said, I don't even think it's in the best fixing available on a per dollar basis. Talismans, Signets, Darksteel Ingot, Astral Cornucopia, etc. This card is more expensive than all of those. There's even more budget options beyond that; Khan's banners, etc.

I would play it if I were on a strict budget and already owned it, but I really don't think it's that good, even as part of a suite of cards to replace expensive mana fixing.

[tstorm823]

Banding lands, people. Banding lands that tap for any color.

[toctheyounger]

Ngl, this argument sort of feels like the 'haves' sneering down at the 'have-nots'. Which is 100% the %$#% part of the format. Apologies if I'm reading that wrong, but good mana is single handedly the most expensive part of the game and I'm tired of justifying why I don't run optimal pieces in my decks when the answer should be fairly obvious.

For my part, that wasn't my intent. I was just thinking of the applications of having a lot of the same mana. Though, I do have the privilege of having lots of fixing and powerful lands, so, it's true that I won't see it the same way as someone with less.

That said, I don't even think it's in the best fixing available on a per dollar basis. Talismans, Signets, Darksteel Ingot, Astral Cornucopia, etc. This card is more expensive than all of those. There's even more budget options beyond that; Khan's banners, etc.

I would play it if I were on a strict budget and already owned it, but I really don't think it's that good, even as part of a suite of cards to replace expensive mana fixing.

No, it's fine bud. I've been around long enough now that most of the folk here know I'll %$#% about budget given the opportunity, so in that respect it goes both ways. I'm sure people get sick of hearing it. And to be fair griping to the people here is a waste of time, as only Wizards can reprint the good stuff.

To be honest, I don't think it's THAT great either. I get pretty good mileage from signets and talismans, and they're mostly very cheap. Personally I quite dislike Darksteel Ingot, I'd much rather have a 2 rock that isn't indestructible, but you're right, there are plenty of options.

I think where this shines is if for some reason you really need utility from your lands that they don't otherwise have, and for whatever reason Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth or similar land modifications are not an option (although even then if you're in green Dryad of the Ilysian Grove has this dead to rights now). Like @Dunharrow and @Hermes_ I'm pretty sure my copy is in my The Ur-Dragon list, and because it's a cute Vorthos build that otherwise works well enough and uses a ton of other stuff to cheat on casting it really just doesn't matter enough for me to optimise the land base.

Like, to my mind, it's good enough. Not stellar, not ahead of the pack, not above average, but I wouldn't fault someone for running it ahead if that's what they have.

[DirkGently]

I had to sleep.

Buying a mana base really is brutal, right? You have to dip into a weird speculator's market and buy competitive-level cardboard at a premium just for the satisfaction of tapping a land this turn instead of the next one. If most players insisted on running a fully optimized set of land they'd have no decks. Urborg is $25. Shocks are $10, or $20 when its the best combination in standard, Khan's fetches are $20-ish, Zendikar ones are prohibitive, duals are ridiculous, Chronicles City of Brass is $20, Nykthos is $20, Mana Confluence is $20, Reflecting Pool is $20 and if you play slower stuff like Temples, RAV bounces and Alara homes there's always someone in the room ready to sneer at the slovenly state of your deck, when all you wanna do is cast your spells. it's such a snob area of magic

To clarify (though I have mentioned this once or twice), I think it's a bad choice for a budget deck too, at least as far as bang/buck. Budget manabases are going to be slower but they can still have sufficient fixing. Trilands cost nothing and they give you all 3 colors in a 3c deck. If you have one in your hand, you're probably already looking good on the fixing front, and ofc there are lots of other options.

Now, if I was to back up and have a little perspective, there's probably a decent number of decks where it's fine - if you're building 5c on a budget, there's probably no way your fixing can possibly be good enough that CL won't be worth including. Although personally, trying to make a 5c manabase on a budget would drive me insane from the get-go.

Everything is at the cost of building the deck on theme. To use the same deck as an example, if that means that I need uu for Whim of Volrath and Trait Doctoring while also needing ww for Order of the Sacred Torch in order to set up some stack control, so be it. Lantern lets me play my mountain after Azorius Guildgate and Evolving Wilds and have the required mana to counter something. Otherwise, I'm using wilds to get a plains and hoping that I don't need to hack twice in a turn any time soon.

EDIT: my example would have worked just as well with Arcane Signet. Consider instead the triple blue required to make Tidal Control work in the same position.

How does trait doctoring help with tidal control or order of the sacred torch? Don't you need something permanent?

Again, I'm not saying it can't ever be useful, I'd just saying that the potential advantages of CL are outclassed by other rocks. Replace it with Coalition Relic and you have sufficient fixing PLUS an extra mana storage, for example.

In my 5C deck I'm currently running a total of 15 lands that are either fetches, utilities that might only tap for c at most (one is Maze). If Lantern sticks around I can pretty comfortably defer cracking the fetches until everybody else is taking their turns once I have 2 or more to crack at once, and if I get them back from Eerie Ultimatum they can still be good for something when there's nothing left in the library for them to get. I also run Urborg for the same reason, of course. Is Prismatic Omen likely to stick around longer than Lantern? Yeah, but it doesn't ramp and there's a personal preference there.

Don't even get me STARTED on prismatic omen, lol.

I mean, though I may wish otherwise, it's pretty rare for a game to get to the point where you've fetched everything out of your deck. And if that's happened, you've probably drawn urborg at that point anyway, which basically does the same thing since presumably you're fixed like crazy by that point.

I'm not sure what you mean about cracking 2 at once. To save time? Usually when I crack a fetch, I'll just say "it's getting X land" and then finish playing my turn as though I had it, then search it out once I'm done - no time wasted at all.

Anyway, there are certainly decks that justify running it, it's not completely worthless, but I do think it's massively overplayed, and picking out one example where it's maybe justified doesn't really discredit that.

I'm not saying that it isn't overvalued or overplayed by the frame of reference you're using. I'm saying that frame of reference is not the only useful one...

"Almost any deck" is very general, and decks don't much exist in vacuums. A deck has its own context of the player's intentions, its mana needs, and there's often context of the meta in which it's played. Of all the decks that get scraped for EDHREC, only a small portion are going to be from players highly experienced in building and play and card knowledge. That leaves a lot of area for players that, for example, might be hesitant to play Fellwar Stone over Chromatic Lantern because they see the former as a 2-cost rock where they can't control what it might produce (and there is potential for meta context there) and the latter as only costing 1 more but will always produce what they want in addition to making sure their lands can produce what they want. There's room for those players to learn -- and some just won't care because they have fun anyway or value that form of variance/unpredictability -- but let's not look down our noses at them just because they're not "enlightened" yet.

From my point of view Fellwar and Lantern do different jobs. Different enough they get considered on their own (does the deck need what the rock provides?) rather than which one is superior in a vacuum. I run both but not for the same reason, whereas I run Exotic Orchard in the 5C for the same reason I run Fellwar.

And most of the cards you listed do something entirely different than Chromatic Lantern and most of them produce colorless, so I don't see where there's any objective superiority. Context is important, and each of those has advantages in different contexts.

It's fine that you've found a place where it's perhaps justified - I'm not saying those places don't exist. I'm just saying that it's being vastly overplayed. And I don't see anything you're saying that really refutes that claim except "well, people are inexperienced at building decks" which...yes? That's kind of my point?

Great example is how many 3c 4cmc commanders are running it, often over stuff like felwar that actually accelerate out their commander instead of wasting tempo. Ofc not all of those decks necessarily want to play their commander on-curve, but it's true way too often to justify logically imo.

I mean, it's outpacing fellwar stone 21% to 5% in RAFIQ. If ever a deck wanted to play its 4-drop commander on curve, it's rafiq. There's no way that's not overvaluing the card.

Jesus christ did this RCOTD ever escalate. Ngl, this argument sort of feels like the 'haves' sneering down at the 'have-nots'. Which is 100% the %$#% part of the format. Apologies if I'm reading that wrong, but good mana is single handedly the most expensive part of the game and I'm tired of justifying why I don't run optimal pieces in my decks when the answer should be fairly obvious. That's not pointed at anyone weighing in here, it's just how I feel in general.
...
If I had it in my folder and it could pull some weight in my deck, would I include it? Yes.

It might get buried in the avalanche, but my point is not "run more fetches lol", it's "no matter your budget, CL should usually be redundant because you shouldn't rely on one card to do something so crucial as fix your mana".

If you can remove the cost of the card by already having it, then sure, for a budget build it's fine. But if I was trying to put together something on a budget then I'd definitely focus more on lands. $8 will get you quite a few decent duals.

Yes, but it is beautiful, no? I personally love a good episode of Man vs Thread, and Dirk is fighting like a gladiator in the lion pit. Then you zoom all the way back for some perspective and remember this is largely about nothing important, and the circle is complete, entertainment achieved.

I love this website.

Lol ikr. Sometimes I just itch for a good pointless brawl.

Unfortunately sometimes even a gladiator of the trivial has to go to bed.

Thank you for the comment about budget, since as you can see a lot of the friction over this card is the have/have not dynamic. That said, keep in mind that without OG Duals, Jeskai only has a handful of fetchable non-basics that make more than one color of mana: Raugrin Triome, the 3 shocks, Irrigated Farmland, Prairie Stream. Two of those enter tapped, full stop. Prairie Stream isn't always easy to have enter untapped, but it certainly can even in a Jeskai deck. The shocks' downside are negligible. So, yeah, I could invest in 4-5 of the other fetches before on-color tarn/mesa, but I question just how much value I would be gaining and if it's worth the $$$. The clearest benefit would be getting to add Mystic Sanctuary into the deck for shenanigans.

I think the real point of clarification here is this: I don't feel as though I need lantern to fix my mana in the early game. I rarely hit color screw with my current manabase. I DO feel as though it has made some wins possible a turn or two quicker, and with some degree of consistency. Perhaps it's a Kykar thing, where I feel great about saccing three spirits to drop lantern after drawing it and suddenly tripling my blue and/or white sources without having had to tap any of them.

How many fetchable nonbasics do you really need? With just the triome plus shocks, that's already 3 of each color, which is enough for most situations. The difference between a cheaper off-color fetch like heath instead of an expensive on-color like tarn is going to be pretty minimal in terms of effectiveness, imo. And the cost is WAY lower. Maybe still not worth it to you, I just thought it was weird that you made it sound like on-color fetches were the only thing you wanted to improve your manabase. And I think there are some other cheaper options that could improve your manabase.

That said, maybe lantern is worth it in your build - I haven't really looked into it super hard. But in theory a deck that can cast all its cards reliably off its manabase, but then has situations in the late-game where it wants to repeatedly cast something for one color of mana (Djinn Illuminatus + Lightning Bolt got brought up earlier, which seems like a good example), could be a place where it's justified. But there's no way that's true of even a small percentage of the decks it's being used in.

Again - it's outpacing fellwar stone in RAFIQ. That's just not right...

[3drinks]

Wednesday, August 19th, 2020; Aven Mindcensor

Well? How well does this FUT gem still hold up in today's era of commander?

[folding_music]

if you go turn 1 land, some sort of accelerant (Jeweled Amulet, charge? Arbor Elf?), turn 2 land, smile innocently, you can stuff everyone's Rampant Growth effect and I think that's what it does best. For a while. I like it in the type of deck I make which is low on tutoring anyway and it's pleasantly symmetrical in that I run things like Mulch and Winding Way which care about MY top four cards.

feels silly when someone immediately bolts it though. an even more boltable bird than the original. in general I think the card doesn't stay alive long enough to be anything other than a weird conditional counterspell. running it in Selesnya colours means you might be able to keep it alive with all the good Totem Armor options?

I run the Future Sight one cos that's my favourite card border, and I prefer low-res striking iconic art to anything else, no matter how skilled it is. that Amonkhet illustration is actually really good but the FUT border overrules everything :3

[Mookie]

Aven Mindcensor is a sweet and fairly unique effect. Mindlock Orb, Ashiok, Dream Render, Shadow of Doubt... options do exist, but there aren't a lot of great answers to tutors, especially in white. Flash is a big deal on this, since it allows it to actually generate virtual card advantage by casting it in response to a tutor. Given how widespread tutoring is in the format, I'd sort of like for there to be more answers to it in the format.... but on the other hand, given how intrinsic it is to so many decks, it would also be incredibly disruptive if more anti-tutor cards saw play.

Anyway, as you imagine, this is particularly good against tutor-reliant combo decks. However, it's also really good against land-based ramp decks (and any decks that rely on fetchlands) - casting a ramp spell into this is going to miss a huge percentage of the time. That said, you do need to have it down early, since shutting down late ramp isn't as useful. Simultaneously, given how disruptive it tends to be, it tends to have a huge target on it and draw a fair amount of hate. It is extremely flimsy, at least.

I'm still annoyed that it specifically calls out opponents searching any library, and not just their controller's library (unlike Ashiok, Dream Render) - it's really obnoxious to deal with for my Thada Adel, Acquisitor deck. On the other hand, I've also gotten some incidental value off it in conjunction with Oath of Lieges as a janky mono-white ramp engine.

I will call out that Mindcensor (and Blood Moon) is part of the reason why I'm willing to run Evolving Wilds in my decks, but refuse to run Bad River and other members of that cycle - giving an opponent such a huge window to disrupt my mana fixing feels terrible. Also: if you want to make enemies, Mindcensoring an early fetch land is a great way to do it.

[Hermes_]

I've played against it any number of times didn't like it and learned to play around it when faced and I play it myself too,some decks it can totally shut them down for awhile.

[FoxM1]

Back when our LGS was running rampant with people who tutored and won on like turn 5, I ran this card in every single deck that it could fit into. Watching someone who thinks they are so amazing because they brought a power 8 deck to a power 4 table get thwarted in their efforts is super satisfying. Always makes the jerks at the table concede usually. I think most of us ended up doing that and it eventually made all the unfun people stop playing their OP decks against us. In their words our "Untuned garbage decks are hard to play around making it unfun".

But yeah, gimping someones fetchlands or tutors is, in my opinion, one of the most fun things to do. They still have a chance of finding the exact card they were wanting, just a smaller window of chance. I like the chance based cards a lot, and I think this fits into it. It usually does get targeted, but it seems that it has usually done its job before it's gone.

[duducrash]

I love taxes in modern. I got a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben with a fancy art and all that. I toyed arround with building her and taxes for a bunch but I never even got it to sleeve anything. At first I assumed I would be hated out, but as a ocasional deck isnt that big of a deal, but I don't know how to build/how it would win.

I know a common idea is play taxing effects and Swords but idk how often that works. Hard to go all out in mono white

[lyonhaert]

But yeah, [nerfing] someones fetchlands or tutors is, in my opinion, one of the most fun things to do.

Nerfing a tutor I can understand, because it's like a soft counter, and Mindcensoring something like Demonic Tutor they can still get some card from the top 4 so it's not a total waste even if it's not what they wanted. That's actually better than what it would do to fetchlands if they're piloting a 4-5C deck. Fetchlands aren't even ramp and if somebody Mindcensored early because of fetches in my 5C deck then they're trying to deny me from getting not just the colors I need but getting mana on curve at all, period. Are you playing somewhat cutthroat in your EDH pods or something?

[FoxM1]

Are you playing somewhat cutthroat in your EDH pods or something?

No, not really. The short answer is I'm an asshole. The long answer is that I really enjoy just messing with people, so when someone comes in and tries to use a fetchland that's been either a nuisance or just a buddy of mine, I might slam an Aven down just to mess with them.

[toctheyounger]

It might get buried in the avalanche, but my point is not "run more fetches lol", it's "no matter your budget, CL should usually be redundant because you shouldn't rely on one card to do something so crucial as fix your mana".

If you can remove the cost of the card by already having it, then sure, for a budget build it's fine. But if I was trying to put together something on a budget then I'd definitely focus more on lands. $8 will get you quite a few decent duals.

Yeah, I agree. One card should never be the linchpin that holds a deck together, and that probably counts for most commanders too, let alone any single card you run in the 99. I'm not overly tied to the usage of Lantern, it's fine but the point you guys make in that it's a trap card isn't wrong - it gives inexperienced players the impression that it's good for what ails ya, and will fix all your woes, but that isn't the case. 1/99 will never smooth your deck out, and if trading it for credit gives you enough value to grab some tangos, bicycles or similar you probably are better off. Those lands themselves are, in all fairness, not exceptional, and the divide between them and shocks/fetches is vast, but they do go further than Lantern by some way nonetheless.

Again, I won't fault someone for running it as part of a ramp/fixing package, I'd prefer it over other budget options, but then again, if trading it can get you a Fellwar Stone, Arcane Signet and Wayfarer's Bauble (which it almost can) you're probably better off. And that's just the law of averages at work - 3 out of 99 has a higher chance of helping you than 1 out of 99. Makes sense.

---

Aven Mindcensor, I've never actually included in a deck. I'm thinking of dropping it into a Tayam, Luminous Enigma deck I'm trialling as a nice easy recurrable way to keep the board fair. I think it probably shines best in response to hard tutors like Demonic, Vampiric, Enlightened etc, so flash is nice on this sort of effect. I guess in theory it looks pretty decent, but being honest I have absolutely zero play experience with this one despite interest in running it.

[Sinis]

Wednesday, August 19th, 2020; Aven Mindcensor

I think this card holds up well. There are just more land-from-library-to-battlefield and other tutors as ever before, and this card can shut them down.

I might be biased though, I've even gone as far as to play Shadow of Doubt on occasion.

[ironic gesture]

I love me an Aven Mindcensor. I run a copy in multiple decks. Gaddock Teeg and Marisi, Breaker of the Coil just off the top of my head. This effect is absolutely phenomenal in shutting down linear combo decks. I also run the new Ashiok (Ashiok, Dream Render) in multiple decks as well. I AM careful to not snipe early fetchlands with it (unless the particular player deserves it). To me the effect forces people to play games closer to the format's intent where you never know what you're going to draw next.

[pokken]

I really respect some of the regulars on these boards that clearly know what they are doing when deckbuilding and piloting. @DirkGently, @pokken, and @3drinks clearly know their stuff; I read their posts and primers and value their input immensely. I just want to get through to them sometimes that not everyone started playing back in the 90's or early 2000's and has a huge, glorious collection to deckbuild with. Nothing personal at all, it just comes up fairly often that a veteran player (not necessarily one of these chaps) casually posts: "You should be running <insert $35 card name here>, it's an absolute must include here", and it's really disheartening and frustrating. I can only imagine the number of visitors to this site who see something like that and go "Well, I WAS going to register a username and start posting, but I don't need to be budget-guilted. . . I'll go watch some Commander's Quarters instead."

I don't think you read my posts on lantern very closely if you're lumping me in with the big spender recommendations.

I don't think I suggested anything over a buck did I? Armillary sphere spike while I wasn't looking?

Re: mindcensor
Is good but disturbingly often winds up being a stone rain that eats removal or forces everyone to stall until a sweeper happens. It has been fairly unfun play pattern wise for me. Great in cedh less fun in casuals.

[Serenade]

Ban tutors; who objects?

Until we get to that glorious point, this is a fair control card. It's a different vein from taxing. More like Rule of Law: You still can do your thing...but in a limited capacity. Hampering? I've never been mad having someone do it to me.