Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[DirkGently]

I'd love to read a write up from you on which commander/legend from the whole of magic you think is A+ or even A,

In terms of power level or in terms of design? I don't think it's possible to be both, since anything at an A power level is almost certainly going to be obnoxious to play against.

Tbh I might be overly conservative with giving out As (in either category). It's hard to be too certain of power level when the card is just spoiled. Like Kylox, Visionary Inventor looks like a miserable Narset, Enlightened Master clone with haste to me, but it's entirely possible that the deck can't reliably come together and so grading it at an A would be wrong - won't know for sure until people start actually playing it.

Much easier to grade stuff that's already been around for a while.

[Hermes_]

I'd love to read a write up from you on which commander/legend from the whole of magic you think is A+ or even A,

In terms of power level or in terms of design? I don't think it's possible to be both, since anything at an A power level is almost certainly going to be obnoxious to play against.

Tbh I might be overly conservative with giving out As (in either category). It's hard to be too certain of power level when the card is just spoiled. Like Kylox, Visionary Inventor looks like a miserable Narset, Enlightened Master clone with haste to me, but it's entirely possible that the deck can't reliably come together and so grading it at an A would be wrong - won't know for sure until people start actually playing it.

Much easier to grade stuff that's already been around for a while.

That's why I'm wondering which cards that have been around since '94 would be A+ from your view and if they are any that are A+ in both power level and design, or is it just one or the other.

[duducrash]

Kylox, Visionary Inventor looks like a miserable Narset, Enlightened Master clone with haste to me

If they are at 7+ Mana and have several other creatures to sac they are already winning

[5colorsrainbow]

When I have the time (or if someone else wants to start it) might be fun to do a thread that looks back on what WOTC has done to help out white in EDH. Outside of drawing and ramp I believe they said they are doing more resurrection and protection effects.

Personally I like the space of white drawing that's limited to certain decks (Bennie Bracks, Zoologist and Folk Hero for example).

[duducrash]

I feel we get one white premium removal spell in EDH every 2 sets. Stroke of Midnight , Get Lost , Unexplained Absence , March of Otherworldly Light , Excise the Imperfect , and I'm sure there are more. All this are in the top tier or near the top tier of removal spells in EDH, targeted removal has become really good, and many deckbuilders wont touch them because youtube personalities like to talk about a pretend EDH that doesnt exist outside their curated games. white's removal suit is amazing.

I still think it's the worst card draw color, but much better than before, for sure. Idk if its far from red actually

[Mookie]

I think white has gotten a lot of strong and interesting support cards recently - Serra Paragon, Ao, the Dawn Sky, and Halo Fountain all come to mind. If I have one complaint, it is that it feels like WotC hasn't figured out any staple designs yet. Most white cards that play around in this space are at higher rarities or printed in precons, and they also tend to be mechanically unique. I'd like to see more of these designs recycled at lower rarities.

...I guess in terms of mechanical uniqueness, they've started to reuse punisher draw (Trouble in Pairs / Mangara, the Diplomat / Smuggler's Share) and 'small creature matters' (Welcoming Vampire, Assemble the Players, Bennie Bracks, Zoologist, etc). Still no luck for showing up at common / uncommon though.

[PrimevalCommander]

Trouble in Pairs looks great, but I think Tocasia's Welcome is one of the best card draw permanents in white right now. I have been using it to great effect and seem to want more copies for more decks the closer I look at them. White typically has a lot of small creatures ETB'ing regularly and it doesn't take too much set up to get multiple cards per cycle. Though it does take set up to trigger more often. That is where the synergy comes in

Trouble in Pairs might be better in a vacuum since if doesn't require any additional input from the caster, and your opponents will have a hard time NOT triggering is on their turn for at least one of the modes. I suspect the "cast 2 spells" will be the one that nets the most triggers, since savvy players can pace their card draw when practical and spread the attacks until the opportune time.

I've had Smuggler's Share in play several times and it under performs regularly. So I welcome a more broad use of similar design space that may net more cards. I just have to find a spot for this 4mv enchantment on my curve and in my list.

[Rumpy5897]

Still no luck for showing up at common / uncommon though.

White's whole spiel in typical 20 life magic is not really about value, and the whole push has been EDH centric. As such, I can totally understand squirrelling away those designs at higher rarities and in non-limited product. This also doubles as a way to introduce fewer of those cards into the wild, making them more valuable. This is of relevance to some parties, and the chase for the cards may lead to more product getting opened, which is of relevance to other parties.

My personal grievance with the direction is at some point WotC started treating cheaper recursion spells reaching lands as a bug rather than a feature, and templating followed suit. Am I stuck with Brought Back, Cosmic Intervention (split over two turns) and Sevinne's Reclamation as cheaper options? Once you cough up 4 mana then the gates start opening up again (e.g. Mookie's mention of Serra Paragon), but it's a well known fact you'd rather be ramping for less if possible.

[toctheyounger]

I think white has gotten a lot of strong and interesting support cards recently - Serra Paragon, Ao, the Dawn Sky, and Halo Fountain all come to mind. If I have one complaint, it is that it feels like WotC hasn't figured out any staple designs yet. Most white cards that play around in this space are at higher rarities or printed in precons, and they also tend to be mechanically unique. I'd like to see more of these designs recycled at lower rarities.

...I guess in terms of mechanical uniqueness, they've started to reuse punisher draw (Trouble in Pairs / Mangara, the Diplomat / Smuggler's Share) and 'small creature matters' (Welcoming Vampire, Assemble the Players, Bennie Bracks, Zoologist, etc). Still no luck for showing up at common / uncommon though.

In terms of draw/advantage accrual, it definitely comes at a premium in white. Both in the wallet and rarity slot. Case in point, I think Delney, Streetwise Lookout is going to probably do a little Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer impression for price. It's being talked about as a legacy inclusion for death and taxes, and it's gonna do lots in the cedh sphere too. I hope not, because I'd love one, but we will see.

Where white shines, and at most rarity slots, is efficient removal and premium board control. Dauntless Dismantler, from Ixalan 2, is one of the best new white cards to be printed of late. Absolutely dumps on treasure and rock ramp strategies and has activated ability removal for the same scaling to what you need. The way it's tacked on as an ability means that you get to keep it on board as a deterrent to any further commitment to the board too, which is nice because you don't need to keep it in hand for a 'gotcha'. Doorkeeper Thrull is going to do pretty great things in this space too. Honestly, it's not everyone's cup of tea, because it has a staxish aroma to it, but this is what white does for advantage - establish board presence and suppress the table's advantage.

[DirkGently]

That's why I'm wondering which cards that have been around since '94 would be A+ from your view and if they are any that are A+ in both power level and design, or is it just one or the other.

As far as As in power level, ofc you can just look at the top cEDH meta. Personally I don't LOVE cEDH viability as a direct ranking of power, though. Sure, Thrasios, Triton Hero is very effective in cEDH, but he's not a terribly threatening card in a fair deck. To take an ever more extreme hypothetical example, a commander that was:

Captain Competitive
Legendary Creature - Legend
Captain competitive is all colors.
: Captain Competitive deals 1 damage to any target.
0/1

Would probably be decently strong in cEDH as a payoff for infinite colorless mana that gives access to all colors, but...c'mon, that card obviously sucks in a vacuum. So for me, my A-tier power level commanders would be more likely stuff like Sisay, Weatherlight Captain, Niv-Mizzet, Parun, Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge, Slicer, Hired Muscle // Slicer, High-Speed Antagonist...stuff like that. Stuff that's almost guaranteed to be a huge pain in the butt even when built "fairly".

As far as A design, that's trickier. Phelddagrif, obviously, though in some ways that's cheating since he was designed before multiplayer was as much of a thing (afaik) so I don't think he was intended to be used the way I do. I think I gave Kellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon an A-. Purphoros, Bronze-Blooded is up there.

Feather, the Redeemed is way up there in terms of being strong and also super cool - she's maybe the commander that comes closest to a double-A rating. But I do think it's kind of impossible for the reasons I stated earlier. Sisay would be an example of a commander where - before having played against it - I thought the design was cool, potentially A-worthy, but having actually had to play against her quite a few times, she's a miserable must-kill pile of cancer because of her power level, and my design rating has dropped accordingly. Feather stays on the good side of acceptable in terms of power, but it does depend on meta.

[duducrash]

Tivit, Seller of Secrets is a cool design that can be built to the higher power.

[DirkGently]

Tivit, Seller of Secrets is a cool design that can be built to the higher power.

Afaik outside of cEDH combo with time sifter he's not that strong. There aren't a lot of good voting cards and his synergy isn't super strong with most of them anyway, and for 6 there are much stronger draw engines. And I'm not that excited by the design either. Needing to hit a player is annoying to trigger and I don't like expensive commanders. Obviously this is my personal preference but that's always been the schtick on GBU.

Probably a power C+ design C+ by my grading.

For a similar commander I like a lot more, Emissary Green has a way stronger trigger (twice as many treasures per vote, and I like global +1 counters a lot more than a clue token), and he only needs to attack not deal damage, and he costs 1 less. And I consider being unable to combo with time sieve to be a positive.

(GBU article is up btw)

[Mookie]

Tivit, Seller of Secrets is a cool design that can be built to the higher power.

Afaik outside of cEDH combo with time sifter he's not that strong. There aren't a lot of good voting cards and his synergy isn't super strong with most of them anyway, and for 6 there are much stronger draw engines. And I'm not that excited by the design either. Needing to hit a player is annoying to trigger and I don't like expensive commanders. Obviously this is my personal preference but that's always been the schtick on GBU.

Probably a power C+ design C+ by my grading.

For a similar commander I like a lot more, Emissary Green has a way stronger trigger (twice as many treasures per vote, and I like global +1 counters a lot more than a clue token), and he only needs to attack not deal damage, and he costs 1 less.

(GBU article is up btw)

...I think you missed that Tivit triggers on ETB. Ward + flying is also pretty annoying to deal with, at least in casual circles.

[DirkGently]

...I think you missed that Tivit triggers on ETB. Ward + flying is also pretty annoying to deal with, at least in casual circles.

I didn't miss it, it just didn't support my argument xD obviously green doesn't have a direct comparison in that regard but I think his other advantages easily make up the gap.

I don't hate tivit, he's okay. C+ is well above average. I just don't think he's that interesting.

[duducrash]

"If you take out the powerfull ways to build it, it's not that powerfull" isn't a great argument to be fair.

Emissary Green is 3/3 WO evasion in a color that has a hard time providing evasion, Tivit, Seller of Secrets is a 6/6 flyer in a color combination that excels in protecting and providing evasion. I don't see the comparission going in his favor at all. Tivit is a much stronger creature and I don't see it particularly close.

[Dunadain]

"If you take out the powerfull ways to build it, it's not that powerfull" isn't a great argument to be fair.

Learn from my mistakes, this isn't a conversation worth having with Dirk XD

[DirkGently]

"If you take out the powerfull ways to build it, it's not that powerfull" isn't a great argument to be fair.

Emissary Green is 3/3 WO evasion in a color that has a hard time providing evasion, Tivit, Seller of Secrets is a 6/6 flyer in a color combination that excels in protecting and providing evasion. I don't see the comparission going in his favor at all. Tivit is a much stronger creature and I don't see it particularly close.

I did say earlier that I don't consider "things cEDH cares about" when rating power. Imo, in tivit or elsewhere, time sieve is not a card anyone should be playing in normal EDH. That's just how I grade - evaluating power in a format where it's expected that you moderate your power is a subjective assessment. If you want to play cEDH then my power ratings won't be as applicable to your needs.

I consider greens lack of evasion to be positive in some ways. If Tivit is bonking you on the head, you're going to do something to stop him asap. If green is getting chumped by saprolings, you're a lot less likely to use removal on him, which gives him more time to get that sweet sweet value. I also don't see clues as super useful, especially not in bulk like tivit will tend to do. If I wanted CA I've got lots of easier avenues at that mana value. +1 counters are way spicier imo. Sure, you can do artifact synergies to make clues better, but it starts to feel like we're going in too many directions.

I just don't like him that much.

[duducrash]

I just saw you graded Emissary Green higher than Tivit.

Looking at the 2 cards alone, no deck behind. do you Green is a better card?

You said you only take into consideration EDH decks, not cEDH, if you were to build highly powerfull casual decks with both, you think greens is better? I'm not sure you are having a conversation out of pride and really want to be right about stuff or have (in my opinion) terrible evaluations

[yeti1069]

I don't know why you all spend so much time and effort arguing with Dirk over something as subjective as his personal rankings of cards, especially when it's obvious that you're evaluating them from significantly differing viewpoints. I generally wouldn't care, as I've seen little point in the evaluations, except that it eats up pages and pages of threads that might otherwise have useful or interesting discussion.

[TheGildedGoose]

Louder, for the folks in the back:

I don't know why you all spend so much time and effort arguing with Dirk over something as subjective as his personal rankings of cards, especially when it's obvious that you're evaluating them from significantly differing viewpoints. I generally wouldn't care, as I've seen little point in the evaluations, except that it eats up pages and pages of threads that might otherwise have useful or interesting discussion.

[DirkGently]

I just saw you graded Emissary Green higher than Tivit.

Looking at the 2 cards alone, no deck behind. do you Green is a better card?

You said you only take into consideration EDH decks, not cEDH, if you were to build highly powerfull casual decks with both, you think greens is better? I'm not sure you are having a conversation out of pride and really want to be right about stuff or have (in my opinion) terrible evaluations

Tivit's CI is obviously much stronger. I haven't stated outright but I don't tend to value that very much, even though it does have a large impact on the strength of a deck, especially when comparing mono color to multi. For that reason I think a tivit deck would likely be stronger than green. But I consider color to mostly be a question of personal preference so as I said I don't weight it very much.

Taking that out of the equation I think green is better, yes. I just really don't think clues are that exciting for a 6-drop.

I don't know why you all spend so much time and effort arguing with Dirk over something as subjective as his personal rankings of cards, especially when it's obvious that you're evaluating them from significantly differing viewpoints. I generally wouldn't care, as I've seen little point in the evaluations, except that it eats up pages and pages of threads that might otherwise have useful or interesting discussion.

I agree except that I don't think we're "wasting internet pages" or whatever. I think the bigger threat to discussion is that people stop talking and then get bored and leave. Even stupid arguments keep the blood pumping around here.

[Mookie]

Welp, this is why we have the Thunderdome.

Meanwhile, I'm planning to revamp the ur section of my cube to make Detective's Satchel and Gleaming Geardrake work.

[toctheyounger]

Afaik outside of cEDH combo with time sifter he's not that strong.

The cedh meta is adapting to him, but he was dominant for quite a good while there. His draw is that he refunds most of his cost in treasure, is an A+B combo in the command zone, and is a flying 6/6 beater with ward 3, which is not nothing in a meta that doesn't traditionally do combat. That said, he has to resolve first, and that's what people are warming up to. You cannot let him.

Similarly Atraxa, Grand Unifier is in a comparable place currently. She's a Food Chain commander, does gross stuff with Displacer Kitten and is a monster of a threat if she resolves. Again, you just can't let her. The value from her ETB is tremendous in that powerful a meta.

[kirkusjones]

Welp, this is why we have the Thunderdome.

Meanwhile, I'm planning to revamp the ur section of my cube to make Detective's Satchel and Gleaming Geardrake work.

Don't dilute my brand. Kirkusjones presents: the Thunderdome feel free to copy and paste that into a handy document for future use.

[5colorsrainbow]

I like Tivit, but also I was wanting to make an Esper vote commander deck so I just happy to have a commander that can play into that somewhat in the colors i wanted, though sadly the last few batches of voting cards have had G in them :/