DirkGently wrote: ↑6 months agoI don't think a deck needs to be bad for dtutor to go from "busted" to "pretty good". In your average, 7/10, non-combo commander deck I think the card is probably strong but fair. Ofc the context of commander is "all the most busted cards from every set in existence" so it's a high bar.
In the context of cEDH ofc the card is more problematic.
In the context of balanced-for-modern-magic cards, that's probably mostly true, but compared to other old broken stuff I think there are cards that clear that hurdle easily. Sol ring, obviously, is still playable at triple its cost with downside (Worn Powerstone), 2 mana removal is still widely played (compare Swords to Plowshares and even the modern Path to Exile), Mana Drain would still be a strong counter at cancel mv, all the 1mv topdeck tutors would definitely get played at 2 mv (let alone 1.5), Mystic Remora is good at 2mv, Dockside Extortionist is still good at 3mv...I mean yes, all these cards are extremely good but the context of commander is that all these cards are legal so all other cards need to justify themselves against those sorts of cards.Adding 50% to a card's cost and a colored pip at that would make most cards unplayable
Obviously not to say that Demonic tutor isn't one of the best cards in the format, because it is, but personally I don't think it's as anomalously powerful as Mana Crypt and Sol Ring which are undercosted by a significantly larger margin. That, and tutors are only as broken as the deck that plays them, and if you're getting major mileage out of dtutor costing 1 less than grim, you probably aren't playing normal commander.
The basic question is "how good is the best draw in your deck?" If you're playing a combo deck, probably it's very good and dtutor is very powerful. If the answer is "a good answer to the current board state or my best on-curve value piece" then I think dtutor is strong but not problematically so.
All in all, I don't find tutors to be the biggest problem with the format. Combo decks with a ton of tutors would still be unfun even if they were running trash-tier stuff like Diabolic Tutor. The issue is the competitive deckbuilding mindset.
Sure, I'll make a thread.Dunadain wrote: ↑6 months ago@DirkGently I don't really want to derail the thread any further, if you want to keep discussing this I can make a new thread, but again, if we aren't measuring cards based on the most optimal way to use the card, both in piloting and deck building, then what's the point?
Sure, EDH doesn't need ANY ban list as long as everyone's responsible, there are tons of cards that are broken, but probably fine in a certain deck, but if that's the metric we are using, then what's even the point of talking about power level?
Sol ring and magna crypt are definitely more powerful than dt. DT isn't the best card in the format, but it is clearly, firmly, in the "busted" category, even if other stuff is even more busted.
(Ban sol ring btw)
I doubt we actually disagree about the efficacy of Demonic Tutor in the various possible contexts so I won't waste more time on that unless necessary.
if we aren't measuring cards based on the most optimal way to use the card, both in piloting and deck building, then what's the point?
Whether or not you agree, the banlist philosophy does not follow your methodology. The banlist serves to both guide players towards the correct (no quotes, sue me cEDH players) commander deckbuilding philosophy, and to help prevent good-intentioned people from accidentally falling into any open manholes. That's why there are so many "busted" cards (like dtutor and sol ring) that remain unbanned - as long as you're approaching deckbuilding with the right mindset, these cards probably won't cause problems. The cards that tend to get banned are ones that don't really have a fair use. I have had many games where someone cast demonic tutor and it was completely fine. I've had basically zero games where someone cast Paradox Engine and the game continued to be enjoyable.
I'm not sure how the format would look if the RC took a heavy-handed approach to the banlist. Possibly it would be fun to have a format that prevents anything too broken from happening by law rather than spirit - especially as that spirit gets less and less common. But for sure the banlist would be waaaaaay longer, and I can see the desirability in keeping it short. Especially when I'm trying to do something silly and need efficient facilitators like demonic tutor to help it come together.