Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[duducrash]

Have we gotten whatever makes the 1/1 butterfly token?

It's one of the Plane cards, Megaflora Jungle to be exact.

I'm sadened beyond belief and my mood is destroyed

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

I'm sadened beyond belief and my mood is destroyed

We'll always have Giant Caterpillar. And perhaps pave the way for something in the future...

[Mookie]

I'm still collecting my thoughts re: all the new cards, but overall, I think this set should be very interesting. Battles are probably the single thing that will have the largest long-term implications for the format, since they incentivize more combat-focused decks to both flip battles and prevent your opponents from flipping their own battles. A lot of my decks sort of ignore combat, but if battles are a common card type going forwards, I may have to adjust my deckbuilding. That said, it's not like they're unique in this - planeswalkers, the monarch, and the initiative are other mechanics that encourage getting into the red zone.

Beyond battles, there are a bunch of sweet team-up legends and the Praetor cycle as new commanders. I think incubate is a bit of a miss, but there are a lot of backup cards I like.

...I suspect I'm going to play a lot of Realmbreaker, the Invasion Tree in my decks (assuming it's not too expensive). It doesn't directly replace Thaumatic Compass // Spires of Orazca, but they do similar things. From the commander precons, I could also see Bitterthorn, Nissa's Animus seeing a decent amount of play as a new take on Sword of the Animist.

(also: I somehow missed Scorn-Blade Berserker, but I like it a lot as a black Thraben Inspector)

[DirkGently]

(also: I somehow missed Scorn-Blade Berserker, but I like it a lot as a black Thraben Inspector)

Does it actually have any space in the format? Baseline seems like 2B, sac a creature to draw 2. There's a few angles - it can chump block, you could choose to save the counter instead of sac, it can be recurred by creature-recurring things - but considering you're adding 2 to the cost of Corrupted Conviction, I'm skeptical that you'd get 2 mana worth of value from those angles.

[Guardman]

(also: I somehow missed Scorn-Blade Berserker, but I like it a lot as a black Thraben Inspector)

Does it actually have any space in the format? Baseline seems like 2B, sac a creature to draw 2. There's a few angles - it can chump block, you could choose to save the counter instead of sac, it can be recurred by creature-recurring things - but considering you're adding 2 to the cost of Corrupted Conviction, I'm skeptical that you'd get 2 mana worth of value from those angles.

I am personally thinking about it as a 1b card that puts a +1/+1 counter on another creature, draws a card, triggers creature dying effects, and can be easily recurred. That is a lot for a card without even getting into the fact it can draw you a second card if you want.

[Dunadain]

The real question is how is this a black thraben inspector!?!

[Mookie]

(also: I somehow missed Scorn-Blade Berserker, but I like it a lot as a black Thraben Inspector)

Does it actually have any space in the format? Baseline seems like 2B, sac a creature to draw 2. There's a few angles - it can chump block, you could choose to save the counter instead of sac, it can be recurred by creature-recurring things - but considering you're adding 2 to the cost of Corrupted Conviction, I'm skeptical that you'd get 2 mana worth of value from those angles.

I am personally thinking about it as a 1b card that puts a +1/+1 counter on another creature, draws a card, triggers creature dying effects, and can be easily recurred. That is a lot for a card without even getting into the fact it can draw you a second card if you want.

Yeah, I'm specifically looking at it for my Teysa, Orzhov Scion deck - at the bare minimum it gives a token off Teysa when it dies, plus it triggers Blood Artist / Welcoming Vampire and can be recurred by Lurrus of the Dream-Den. The body gives it some significant upsides compared to Village Rites / Corrupted Conviction and other instant-based sac outlets.

The real question is how is this a black thraben inspector!?!

...it's a one mana, 1/2 human with an ETB effect that lets you pay some additional mana at a later time to draw a card?

[TheGildedGoose]

Combos with Abiding Grace.

[duducrash]

Jolrael, Voice of Zhalfir BaB promo must look gorgeous. It does have 400 different versions though

[Dunadain]

The real question is how is this a black thraben inspector!?!

...it's a one mana, 1/2 human with an ETB effect that lets you pay some additional mana at a later time to draw a card?

I think you're fundementally misunderstanding Thraben Inspector.

Thraben Inspector gives you a body AND a card, it's card advantage. This card gives you a body OR a card, it's card neutral.

Sure it has synergies, but as a stand-alone card, it's not even close.

It's like when people were comparing Expressive Iteration to Moment of Truth. Sure, the words might look similar, but the cards are entirely different.

[Mookie]

The real question is how is this a black thraben inspector!?!

...it's a one mana, 1/2 human with an ETB effect that lets you pay some additional mana at a later time to draw a card?

I think you're fundementally misunderstanding Thraben Inspector.

Thraben Inspector gives you a body AND a card, it's card advantage. This card gives you a body OR a card, it's card neutral.

Sure it has synergies, but as a stand-alone card, it's not even close.

It's like when people were comparing Expressive Iteration to Moment of Truth. Sure, the words might look similar, but the cards are entirely different.

Counterpoint: I think you're overvaluing Thraben Inspector's body, and undervaluing Scorn-Blade Berserker's backup ability.

Suppose, hypothetically, you had some effect that let you cash in a creature for a card - would you make the trade? If the creature is a 20/20, I don't think you ever make the trade unless you're desperate. If the creature is a 5/5, you'll usually decline, but it's sometimes worth consideration. A 3/3 could go either way. But a 1/2? I think you almost always make the trade. That suggests to me that Thraben Inspector's body is worth less than a card.

I think a decent way to model this is to consider how frequently you're willing to make a trade - if you're willing to trade a 3/3 for a card exactly 50% of the time, then that suggests the two are equivalent in value. Meanwhile, if there were an effect that said 'sacrifice two Thraben Inspectors to draw a card', that sounds like a trade that would be made maybe half of the time. As a result, I would value Thraben Inspector's body at around half a card.

Meanwhile, Scorn-Blade Berserker lets you use its backup ability to trade in an expendable body (such as a Thraben Inspector) for an actual card. If the expendable body itself is worth half a card, then that suggests that the backup ability is worth another half a card, since the two combined yield a full card.

Obviously, all these values are contextual - if you have Conjurer's Closet or some other flicker synergy, then you are probably less likely to sacrifice Thraben Inspector, which means its body is more valuable. On the flip side, if you have Blood Artist or some other sacrifice synergy out, then you're more inclined to want to trade it in for a card, which means the body's value has gone down. But I don't think either Thraben Inspector or Scorn-Blade Berserker are worth running without those synergies.

[Serenade]

You know when, especially during adolescence, you hear a song you like and then later, somewhere else, you hear another song you like, and THEN YOU REALIZE IT IS THE SAME ARTIST WHO YOU NOW REALLY REALLY LIKE?

Anyway, that's me seeing the new Juri art and looking up Julie Dillon.

[DirkGently]

I am personally thinking about it as a 1b card that puts a +1/+1 counter on another creature, draws a card, triggers creature dying effects, and can be easily recurred. That is a lot for a card without even getting into the fact it can draw you a second card if you want.

How many decks care about the counter and also care about death triggers? It seems like a very narrow space to me. I doubt it'll see significant EDHrec numbers.

[Dunadain]

...it's a one mana, 1/2 human with an ETB effect that lets you pay some additional mana at a later time to draw a card?

I think you're fundementally misunderstanding Thraben Inspector.

Thraben Inspector gives you a body AND a card, it's card advantage. This card gives you a body OR a card, it's card neutral.

Sure it has synergies, but as a stand-alone card, it's not even close.

It's like when people were comparing Expressive Iteration to Moment of Truth. Sure, the words might look similar, but the cards are entirely different.

Counterpoint: I think you're overvaluing Thraben Inspector's body, and undervaluing Scorn-Blade Berserker's backup ability.

Suppose, hypothetically, you had some effect that let you cash in a creature for a card - would you make the trade? If the creature is a 20/20, I don't think you ever make the trade unless you're desperate. If the creature is a 5/5, you'll usually decline, but it's sometimes worth consideration. A 3/3 could go either way. But a 1/2? I think you almost always make the trade. That suggests to me that Thraben Inspector's body is worth less than a card.

I think a decent way to model this is to consider how frequently you're willing to make a trade - if you're willing to trade a 3/3 for a card exactly 50% of the time, then that suggests the two are equivalent in value. Meanwhile, if there were an effect that said 'sacrifice two Thraben Inspectors to draw a card', that sounds like a trade that would be made maybe half of the time. As a result, I would value Thraben Inspector's body at around half a card.

Meanwhile, Scorn-Blade Berserker lets you use its backup ability to trade in an expendable body (such as a Thraben Inspector) for an actual card. If the expendable body itself is worth half a card, then that suggests that the backup ability is worth another half a card, since the two combined yield a full card.

Obviously, all these values are contextual - if you have Conjurer's Closet or some other flicker synergy, then you are probably less likely to sacrifice Thraben Inspector, which means its body is more valuable. On the flip side, if you have Blood Artist or some other sacrifice synergy out, then you're more inclined to want to trade it in for a card, which means the body's value has gone down. But I don't think either Thraben Inspector or Scorn-Blade Berserker are worth running without those synergies.

It's not that I think Scorn-Blade Berserker is bad, I don't. I do think it's so different from Thraben Inspector that is not a great comparison.

Heck, Mogg Fanatic is a better comparison.

Though if your only using this card to sac itself its probably really bad. You'll need to make use of the backup ability to justify it.

[Guardman]

I am personally thinking about it as a 1b card that puts a +1/+1 counter on another creature, draws a card, triggers creature dying effects, and can be easily recurred. That is a lot for a card without even getting into the fact it can draw you a second card if you want.

How many decks care about the counter and also care about death triggers? It seems like a very narrow space to me. I doubt it'll see significant EDHrec numbers.

There are a lot of decks that care about death triggers and drawing cards. The +1/+1 counter is cake, or a second death trigger + card draw.

[Mookie]

It's not that I think Scorn-Blade Berserker is bad, I don't. I do think it's so different from Thraben Inspector that is not a great comparison.

Ah, alright then. I guess in that case, it's goes into alignment chart meme territory. =P

	Form Purist	Form Neutral	Form Rebel
Function Purist
Function Neutral
Function Rebel

I'd put it in the upper left quadrant with Thraben Inspector ('small creature that draws a card'), but sounds like you might put it closer to Giant Killer ('small creature that generates value').

[PrimevalCommander]

I don't understand that chart.

[Dunadain]

So has everything been spoiled? I don't know how you're supposed to tell, XD

[Cyberium]

I don't like Horsemanship very much at all. There are already too many characters on horses without it already (compare to flying). Why do some of them have Horsemanship and others not? Am I to believe Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale is merely an amateur equestrian?

Maybe it simply means those previous horse riders were just not very good with horses. XD

[Hawk]

So has everything been spoiled? I don't know how you're supposed to tell, XD

I think yes at this point - there may be a few more "Multiverse Legends" leaking out slower but I think all the new cards are officially spoiled.

[duducrash]

To be honest Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale's horse does not seem to be calm and/or enjoying the ride

[Hawk]

I don't understand that chart.

I got a laugh. I think I understand it:

Form: A purist would say "we're looking at one drop creatures", neutral is "we're looking at a creature of any mana value", and rebel is "we're looking at a card of any mana value.."
Function: Purist is "that puts you up an actual card in hand, with or without hoops first", neutral is "that generates some sort of value or virtual card advantage", and rebel is "generates no value - is card neutral or card negative".

And thus, Thraben Inspector is the "Form and Function Purist" (it is a one drop that puts you up a card eventually).

With that table, I do agree with the folks out there @Mookie - I think Scorn-Blade Berserker is closer to "Function Neutral", since needing to sac something (even itself) makes this feel less like Thraben Inspector without some other synergies.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

To be honest Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale's horse does not seem to be calm and/or enjoying the ride

The meter long flaming sword probably isn't helping things, true.

[Hermes_]

To be honest Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale's horse does not seem to be calm and/or enjoying the ride

The meter long flaming sword probably isn't helping things, true.

how many flames or blades does that thing have?

[Mookie]

I don't understand that chart.

Hawk already covered it, but for reference.