Will Partner be the End of EDH / Commander?

[NZB2323]

I run Tymna/Ravos as my cleric tribal commanders and it's one of my weaker decks.

Obviously Tymna/Thrasios is very good for cEDH, but overall partners aren't busted.

[Kelzam]

I have two main issues with Partner as a mechanic:

#1: 9 out of 10 Partner decks I've played against are just generic goodstuff decks that use the partners for their colors less so than their abilities. Or they're just so generically good, as others have said about Tymna the Weaver and Thrasios, Triton Hero that they're boring. And frankly after the two years getting Korvold, Fae-Cursed King, Chulane, Teller of Tales, Yarok, the Desecrated, Muldrotha, the Gravetide, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim the last thing I want to see at the table is more goodstuff piles that are good by virtue of the cards available to their colors.

#2: My biggest issue with Partner, though, is the wasted individual card potential and design cost. Thrasios could be a Commander by himself in the Command Zone. Tymna is better in the 99, outside of being paired. Most of the rest of the Partners for the most part outside of Vial Smasher the Fierce sorely lacked the strength to stand on their own without a Partner, and most were too narrow to put in the 99. And, the truth of that is that the cost of balancing two cards to be in the Command Zone together means making two watered down cards with niche or generic applications by themselves that can be cute to somewhat powerful (or busted in Thrasios's case), The balancing cost of printing a card with generic Partner is a real thing and is why most of the two-color partners are so uninteresting. As a Vorthos, I'm excited for the new Sengir, the Dark Baron, but also upset at the cost the card paid for having Partner on it. I don't expect every Command to be a do-it-all power house like Korvold or as absurd as Edgar Markov, but I can't help but look at Sengir and know that it could have been a much better, more interesting card if it didn't have to be designed with Partner in mind. Halana, Kessing Ranger and Alena, Kessig Trapper have been highly anticipated characters, and instead of getting amazing individual cards, or just being put into a card together a la Tibor and Lumia or Gisa and Geralf, they were both given weak cards because they were relegated to Uncommon Partner pairs for a cutsie "draft experience" that no one will draft more than 2 or 3 times just like most supplementary set drafts. They deserve better, and Partner was the inhibitor.

It's not the end of Commander, but when all is said and done, Commander Legends will have had a lot of wasted potential due to their incessant need to make pack products a draft experience every time and the resulting reliance on Partner to make it possible.

[DirkGently]

And frankly after the two years getting Korvold, Fae-Cursed King, Chulane, Teller of Tales, Yarok, the Desecrated, Muldrotha, the Gravetide, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim the last thing I want to see at the table is more goodstuff piles that are good by virtue of the cards available to their colors.

Huh? Most of those commanders are strong because the commander is strong not because of their colors - the colors help, but a Golos deck helmed by Atogatog is way, way less scary. And Yarok, Korvold, and to a lesser extent the others are all pretty synergistic, not what I'd call "goodstuff".

If anything I'm happy to see partners because at least the commanders themselves aren't enormous threats, though it is true that partner decks can often be pretty goodstuffy, depending on the builder. I think that's primarily because there aren't a lot of options for 4c so they get used by default.

Most of the rest of the Partners for the most part outside of Vial Smasher the Fierce sorely lacked the strength to stand on their own without a Partner

Personally I think Reyhan, Last of the Abzan is a pretty strong and synergistic ability that would be fine without a partner.

And, the truth of that is that the cost of balancing two cards to be in the Command Zone together means making two watered down cards with niche or generic applications

niche OR generic? So...anything?

(or busted in Thrasios's case)

People call Thrasios busted pretty frequently but never really explain why. I confess myself baffled. I mean, he's somewhere around the power level of an Azure Mage or Frontier Guide - admittedly stronger than either, but not by a ton - and those cards are, uh, garbage. Or at least not considered powerful. 4 mana is kind of a ton for that effect, he's not what I'd call efficient, certainly not compared to many other commanders.

but I can't help but look at Sengir and know that it could have been a much better, more interesting card if it didn't have to be designed with Partner in mind.

I'll cede points where it's due - it's certainly true that partner pushes down the power level of cards to compensate, as well as avoiding any abilities that might synergize too strongly with other partners.

Halana, Kessing Ranger and Alena, Kessig Trapper have been highly anticipated characters, and instead of getting amazing individual cards, or just being put into a card together a la Tibor and Lumia or Gisa and Geralf

Are tibor and lumia really that much more interesting than halana and alena? I mean, it's just a matter of opinion, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm just surprised. T&L don't really stand out as particularly exciting to me. Halana and Alena both seem more interesting to me personally, and together they do some synergy that would be hard to make work as a single card. For that matter I don't find G&G very interesting either.

they were both given weak cards because they were relegated to Uncommon Partner pairs for a cutsie "draft experience" that no one will draft more than 2 or 3 times just like most supplementary set drafts.

Personally I plan to make a cube out of the set, if it's half as good as I hope it is.

They deserve better, and Partner was the inhibitor.

It's a tradeoff. Partner does tend to make the designs simpler (probably never going to see something like Nethroi, Apex of Death as a partner). But it also gives a lot of freedom to the builders. Maybe you think the synergy between Halana and Alena is boring, like how I think G&G are boring, but thanks to partner you could pair Halana, Kessig Ranger with Silas Renn, Seeker Adept for deathtouch synergy. Or pair Alena, Kessig Trapper with Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder to play some high-power creatures and give them DS+LL. Alena and Halana have way more versatility than they could possibly have as non-partners.

Now, for flavor-philes who are only interested in them partnered with each other and don't find that pairing interesting - bummer, but it could just as easily have happened if they were printed on the same card.

It's not the end of Commander, but when all is said and done, Commander Legends will have had a lot of wasted potential due to their incessant need to make pack products a draft experience every time and the resulting reliance on Partner to make it possible.

Every commander product since 2011 has been a preconstructed product, and the first commander draft set comes out and now it's an "incessant need" to make everything draftable. Lol ok. God forbid we try anything new and exciting. It's not like they cancelled this years precons (there's even more) or normal sets (with more legends every release, it feels like). You're still getting just as many non-partners legends as you've always gotten, if not more. Without the idea for a draftable commander format there'd be no "potential" to waste, so even if you have no interest in a single legend in the whole set, you haven't lost anything.

We've had precons since forever ago, in different forms, so there's always been products for people who don't want to draft or crack packs. Plus now we've got undraftable "set packs" or whatever they're called, so even pack-style products aren't all draftable anymore.

But since we're talking about it, the reason the default packs have been draftable since mirage or so is because
1) Draft kinda needs a new set every 3 months or so or it gets stale (much like other formats).
2) They're making the set anyway, so why not make it draftable?
3) The nature of selling collectables is that they need to produce a lot of chaff to make the rare stuff rare and therefore valuable. The world in which every set only has competitive-viable cards is a world in which either wotc sells packs for an exorbitant amount of money (so basically secret lairs) or in which cards become nearly worthless and wotc makes a lot less money, which obviously they aren't going to willingly do. LCGs die because each player doesn't spend that much money, while at the same time the startup costs are actually quite high and easy to balk at. With MtG, they get to make it look relatively cheap - 15 new cards for $3! Tournament-viable-ish decks for $30! - while it's actually quite expensive to get to the top level of competition. But that low startup cost gets people invested, and then they look for reasons to stick around, sink a little more at a time, get hooked on opening packs, etc. All that to say - packs would probably always look roughly how they look, limited or no (set packs presumably being the closest comparison, and most of what set packs add to draft packs is just gimmicks). It's just that limited gives some actual relevance to the chaff instead of literally being useless garbage - now with alternate art!

[pokken]

You need to play thrasios to understand. He's the single most powerful commander and it's not particularly close. (When played with a decent partner and either infinite Mana or synergy effects or both)

The handful of enablers you play with him like seedborn muse and the cost reduction guys are so good. It's really not intuitive how great he is. I said the same thing until I started playing him in cedh.

It's not much different in high power games except that he gets better the longer the game.

[DirkGently]

You need to play thrasios to understand.

I have, pretty sure I've mentioned that.

Definitely wasn't OP, but it was pretty fun and funny.

...with infinite Mana...

Lemme stop you right there...

...until I started playing him in cedh.

Lemme stop you right there...

I don't disagree that he's strong in cedh (I mean, I don't play cEDH but I can imagine that he'd be strong there). That's just not a format I care about. In "regular" EDH he's not weak, but I've yet to see any reason to think he's OP. Everything and their mother goes nuts with seedborn or training grounds, Thrasios doesn't seem any scarier than plenty of other commanders in those circumstances.

[5colorsrainbow]

Most vorthos had wanted Hal and Alena to have parter, granted that was before parter with, but I'm happy they can be together for a deck. The only complaint is that they aren't strictly partner with.

Halana, Kessing Ranger and Alena, Kessig Trapper have been highly anticipated characters, and instead of getting amazing individual cards, or just being put into a card together a la Tibor and Lumia or Gisa and Geralf

Are tibor and lumia really that much more interesting than halana and alena? I mean, it's just a matter of opinion, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm just surprised. T&L don't really stand out as particularly exciting to me. Halana and Alena both seem more interesting to me personally, and together they do some synergy that would be hard to make work as a single card. For that matter I don't find G&G very interesting either.

they were both given weak cards because they were relegated to Uncommon Partner pairs for a cutsie "draft experience" that no one will draft more than 2 or 3 times just like most supplementary set drafts.

Personally I plan to make a cube out of the set, if it's half as good as I hope it is.

They deserve better, and Partner was the inhibitor.

It's a tradeoff. Partner does tend to make the designs simpler (probably never going to see something like Nethroi, Apex of Death as a partner). But it also gives a lot of freedom to the builders. Maybe you think the synergy between Halana and Alena is boring, like how I think G&G are boring, but thanks to partner you could pair Halana, Kessig Ranger with Silas Renn, Seeker Adept for deathtouch synergy. Or pair Alena, Kessig Trapper with Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder to play some high-power creatures and give them DS+LL. Alena and Halana have way more versatility than they could possibly have as non-partners.

I've also been looking into some EBT in RG for Hal and Alena and figuring out some fun cheap power boosting effects for Alena as she doesn't check the power of the creature when it enters, rather when she taps for the mana.

[BounceBurnBuff]

You need to play thrasios to understand. He's the single most powerful commander and it's not particularly close. (When played with a decent partner and either infinite Mana or synergy effects or both)

The handful of enablers you play with him like seedborn muse and the cost reduction guys are so good. It's really not intuitive how great he is. I said the same thing until I started playing him in cedh.

I'm fully aware of how synergistic the Wilderness Recs, Seedborn Muses and Unwinding clocks of the world are with Thrasios. I've played so many iterations of him by this point and I still cannot fathom why you would remotely consider him "the most powerful commander".

Paying 4 for that effect is beyond slow, regardless of his low cmc. If you are spending the early game activating it, you aren't even scratching the top 10% of strong commanders. Even if you are holding up the mana for an answer and didn't have to use it, you would still have to choose either/or if you did need to, at which point he is a 1/3 that doesn't block particularly well in the realm of "big idiot go smash."

[pokken]

I'm fully aware of how synergistic the Wilderness Recs, Seedborn Muses and Unwinding clocks of the world are with Thrasios. I've played so many iterations of him by this point and I still cannot fathom why you would remotely consider him "the most powerful commander".

Paying 4 for that effect is beyond slow, regardless of his low cmc. If you are spending the early game activating it, you aren't even scratching the top 10% of strong commanders. Even if you are holding up the mana for an answer and didn't have to use it, you would still have to choose either/or if you did need to, at which point he is a 1/3 that doesn't block particularly well in the realm of "big idiot go smash."

The main thing Thrasios has going for him is his 2 CMC cost; most of the "more powerful" commanders cost 4, 5, or more. When they die a couple times they're uncastable. No one wants to kill Thrasios except through splash damage. It's rare that anyone has the resources to be spot removing him and when they do they're generally getting a 1-for-3 out of the deal.

Paying 4 for the ability is something you do if you ramp hard and don't have anything to do; it's a fallback plan that's still a decent way to sink mana at instant speed. Usually your goal is to (at least at the higher power level spectrum) set up some kind of synergy piece with him and start drawing cards for 2 (or drawing at everyone's end step with Muse) while keeping up mana for interaction.

In Competitive, he curves into Tymna and blocks Tymna, which is nice. Outside of competitive, he blocks a lot of random chip shots as a 1/3.

Lemme stop you right there...

I don't disagree that he's strong in cedh (I mean, I don't play cEDH but I can imagine that he'd be strong there). That's just not a format I care about. In "regular" EDH he's not weak, but I've yet to see any reason to think he's OP. Everything and their mother goes nuts with seedborn or training grounds, Thrasios doesn't seem any scarier than plenty of other commanders in those circumstances.

Infinite mana combos are not exclusively the realm of CEDH. They're mainstream these days.

I mention CEDH only because that was my introduction into how good Thrasios is. I've since seen him a lot at the stronger end of decks and he's just as good there if not better because the games last longer.

It's really not true to say that training grounds and seedborn go nuts with everything; it's basically Tasigur Kenrith and Thrasios, as far as the command zone goes, and Thrasios is quite a bit better than Tasigur in that respect (his ability is just stronger being reactive because of the ramp/landfall/lack of a browbeat effect where people get to choose).

Sure, you can build a lot of strong decks around Seedborn effects, but there's a lot more deckbuilding constraints to that than "just play Thrasios" to get the ability to sink all that mana at instant speed, in a way that builds on itself with the ramp.

There are not many commanders who can simply ride a Biomancer's Familiar and their commander to victory. For a well built deck being able to spend 2:scry 1/draw/ramp at instant speed is going to produce a very high win rate among decks that are otherwise as strong. The only more consistently winning strategies in the command zone are infinite combos with the commander, and Thrasios brings that too

[BounceBurnBuff]

Paying 4 for the ability is something you do if you ramp hard and don't have anything to do; it's a fallback plan that's still a decent way to sink mana at instant speed. Usually your goal is to (at least at the higher power level spectrum) set up some kind of synergy piece with him and start drawing cards for 2 (or drawing at everyone's end step with Muse) while keeping up mana for interaction.

If the best thing going for Thrasios is being a "fallback plan", there's no possibility of him being a powerful card. It also reveals that his low cmc is deceptive, as he doesn't become remotely powerful until one of a couple of specific pieces in the 99 is found. Compare that to Chulane who needs: Any creature. Or Korvold who needs: Anything that sacrifices like a Fetchland, Treasure, or Sakura-Tribe Elder. The plan is usually a longer wait, with less explosive potential.

I'll grant that in your mindset, he looks like a control deck's ideal commander. Low cmc, can block a little early, hold open the mana to react or draw/ramp when you don't need to. Meanwhile, the other commanders could be assembling a massive advantage or a win if that 4-5 mana you're holding open isn't enough to stop all of them.

[onering]

Being a solid and reliable fallback plan that is always accessible is pretty powerful. Thrasios can be deceptively powerful. Being able to sit back and control the game while building CA when you have free mana, then comboing off with him is really solid, even in the strongest metas, as a backup to whatever busted turn 2-3 combo you didn't draw or was answered. As a plan A, its still strong, but not ridiculous or OP. Its more fair than Chulane or Korvold or Golos going nuts asap.

Thrasios is a cheap commander that gives you the two best colors and is a solid if inefficient source of card advantage that works as an infinite mana outlet or general mana sink. What he does is very good, but not broken. He is played extensively because that is something that is even more important in cEDH than elsewhere, and even elsewhere its something that's generically good that can serve as a for the colors commander for a number of strategies. If Thrasios were banned, I'd expect most of the control decks he helms to just switch to a 3 color alternative that has more synergy or make the jump to five color and run Kenrith. The trade off is between Kenrith costing more and his draw ability being worse and not having partner vs Kenrith having more flexibility with its abilities and giving access to red. In cEDH I'm not sure what would replace him, but something would.

[DirkGently]

Infinite mana combos are not exclusively the realm of CEDH. They're mainstream these days.

Tell me about it. I've got a long rambling screed on sally about the degradation of the format - thanks in part to cEDH.

That said, I'd consider just about anyone playing Thrasios with intention to go infinite as cEDH. If you think that's too loose a definition then we may be at an impasse.

I mention CEDH only because that was my introduction into how good Thrasios is. I've since seen him a lot at the stronger end of decks and he's just as good there if not better because the games last longer.

I mean, I think he's good if people leave him alone and he's got time to crank out a bunch of advantage. He can sometimes fly under the radar in a way that, say, Golos generally doesn't. But I'd say that's because Golos is a much stronger, scarier commander. I'd rather lose to someone who was deceptively powerful and played the long game, than someone who won because nobody had an answer for their bomb commander on turn 5.

It's really not true to say that training grounds and seedborn go nuts with everything; it's basically Tasigur Kenrith and Thrasios, as far as the command zone goes, and Thrasios is quite a bit better than Tasigur in that respect (his ability is just stronger being reactive because of the ramp/landfall/lack of a browbeat effect where people get to choose).

Scarab God, Sliver overlord (and queen I guess), Uyo and Varina perhaps, lots of other lesser threats.

I mean I'd rather have Thrasios handing out a bit of CA than scarab god putting powerful things onto the board for the same cost.

Sure, you can build a lot of strong decks around Seedborn effects, but there's a lot more deckbuilding constraints to that than "just play Thrasios" to get the ability to sink all that mana at instant speed, in a way that builds on itself with the ramp.

I've seen plenty of decks that can win the game if Seedborn is left untouched for a turn cycle, if anything that might be the norm. It didn't really feel like they had to go too far out of their way to accomplish that. Seedborn is just a must-kill target, with or without Thrasios.

There are not many commanders who can simply ride a Biomancer's Familiar and their commander to victory. For a well built deck being able to spend 2:scry 1/draw/ramp at instant speed is going to produce a very high win rate among decks that are otherwise as strong. The only more consistently winning strategies in the command zone are infinite combos with the commander, and Thrasios brings that too

If you're specifically saying biomancer's familiar then there are only a handful maybe, but there are plenty of other commanders that can win with other synergy pieces.

This format has become less and less about gradual value engines. They're too easy to see coming compared to sudden, explosive wins, whether combo or otherwise. Thrasios may well be a pretty strong gradual value engine, but that's not going to win as many games as having a commander that can win the game out of nowhere. Jodah sticks for one turn...oh look, he casts expropriate! And the game is basically over on turn 4, no infinite required. Yeah I'm not really seeing Thrasios as the threat at that table. When I think obnoxiously powerful commanders, I think "if this survives for a turn cycle, does it win the game?" And with Thrasios, it's a "no".

[materpillar]

This format has become less and less about gradual value engines. They're too easy to see coming compared to sudden, explosive wins, whether combo or otherwise. Thrasios may well be a pretty strong gradual value engine, but that's not going to win as many games as having a commander that can win the game out of nowhere. Jodah sticks for one turn...oh look, he casts expropriate! And the game is basically over on turn 4, no infinite required. Yeah I'm not really seeing Thrasios as the threat at that table. When I think obnoxiously powerful commanders, I think "if this survives for a turn cycle, does it win the game?" And with Thrasios, it's a "no".

I don't play cEDH at all so take my opinion as the guesstimate it is.

My understanding is that Thrasios' strength isn't that he just lul wins like Jodah or whoever. It's that he has an fairly high floor while requiring extremely minimal resources. Aren't cEDH decks all trying to threaten lethal around turn 3-4? If that's the case you can throw down Thrasios before boardstates hit "tap out and you die" stage. Then, you can hold up interaction mana and if you don't need it you sink it into Thrasios for CA. He allows a more flexible responsive game plan while also being able to threaten lethal once a combo is established on the board.

He's threatening enough when he hits. If he does get answered, the tempo loss is probably only minimal (compared to the other commanders you mentioned). If he doesn't get answered he can take over the game, albeit not as well as the commanders you mentioned. His floor is way higher even though his ceiling is way lower and I imagine his floor is more important than his ceiling in cEDH.

[DirkGently]

I don't play cEDH at all so take my opinion as the guesstimate it is.

My understanding is that Thrasios' strength isn't that he just lul wins like Jodah or whoever. It's that he has an fairly high floor while requiring extremely minimal resources. Aren't cEDH decks all trying to threaten lethal around turn 3-4? If that's the case you can throw down Thrasios before boardstates hit "tap out and you die" stage. Then, you can hold up interaction mana and if you don't need it you sink it into Thrasios for CA. He allows a more flexible responsive game plan while also being able to threaten lethal once a combo is established on the board.

He's threatening enough when he hits. If he does get answered, the tempo loss is probably only minimal (compared to the other commanders you mentioned). If he doesn't get answered he can take over the game, albeit not as well as the commanders you mentioned. His floor is way higher even though his ceiling is way lower and I imagine his floor is more important than his ceiling in cEDH.

I've never contested his power in cEDH. I assume he's strong since people are playing him there, and your explanation fits pretty closely with what I believe (also having not really played cEDH for the most part).

I'm talking about in normal commander games, though. In a normal game of commander, Jodah lulwinning is "acceptable" - I mean what else are you going to play with Jodah besides big stupid bombs like expropriate? - whereas dramatic scepter with Thrasios is generally not. So he's mostly just a slow value engine which has the advantage of sometimes flying under the radar, but he sure doesn't scare me like Jodah does.

[pokken]

That said, I'd consider just about anyone playing Thrasios with intention to go infinite as cEDH. If you think that's too loose a definition then we may be at an impasse.

If you insist on your own made up definition of CEDH that doesn't match reality then I think we're at an impasse. A cursory look at most of the Thrasios decks on EDHrec will find the vast majority are just powerful decks, no more than a third or so (specifically of Thrasios-Tymna) are CEDH decks. Once you get outside of Thrasios/Bruse, Thrasios/Tymna, Thrasios/Akiri there're almost no CEDH decks.

[DirkGently]

If you insist on your own made up definition of CEDH that doesn't match reality then I think we're at an impasse. A cursory look at most of the Thrasios decks on EDHrec will find the vast majority are just powerful decks, no more than a third or so (specifically of Thrasios-Tymna) are CEDH decks. Once you get outside of Thrasios/Bruse, Thrasios/Tymna, Thrasios/Akiri there're almost no CEDH decks.

How are you reaching this conclusion exactly? I look at the Thrasios/Tymna lists and see numbers like 85% for Thassa's Oracle, 61% for Mental Misstep and Flusterstorm, 70% for Veil of Summer, 58% for Dispel and Noxious Revival etc, and I'd reach the conclusion that somewhere around 2/3 are cEDH - if not higher, since a cEDH list might not run mental misstep, but practically every deck that DOES run MM is cEDH.

But I'm not really sure what the relevance of that is, because my assertion you were contesting was "if a thrasios deck's plan is to generate infinite mana and win off Thrasios, that's (almost certainly) a cEDH deck". I'm not sure what grounds you'd disagree with that claim unless you can show evidence that a higher percentage of decks are generating infinite mana than would be considered cEDH. Which, at least when I go looking for infinite mana combos on edhrec, I don't see very many for T&T, dramatic scepter looks to be about 31% which is likely a subset of the cEDH decks.

To me, the easiest way to see if non-cedh lists are running infinite mana combos is just to check if the % of "only in cedh" cards is higher or lower than "only in infinite mana combo" cards, and it looks like infinite mana decks are a subset of cEDH, not the other way around. That's not proof positive, of course. Maybe there are a bunch of non-cedh decks running infinite mana combos. If you want to actually comb through decklists to find non-cedh decks that do run infinite mana combos, be my guest, sounds pretty tedious though.

Thrasios happening to helm a lot of powerful deck is no crime. General Tazri was perhaps the most popular cEDH commander at one time, but that didn't mean the card itself was broken. Thrasios happening to be the most popular cEDH commander doesn't make him broken either.

[pokken]

"if a thrasios deck's plan is to generate infinite mana and win off Thrasios, that's (almost certainly) a cEDH deck"

I would say not even particularly likely.

If you peruse those card lists you'll see that 34% of those decks have Flash which you can just remove, they're old Flash decks that haven't been removed. When you start looking at more typical CEDH-differentiating cards like Drown in the Loch you'll see 24% of decks running - which will give you a pretty close estimate of how many are actual CEDH decks.

Another thing I did was glance at the lists without Flash, and glanced at the first few pages of recent decks - somewhere in the 1/3 to 1/2 range were in the price range I would expect for CEDH decks. Given that there's a possibility that very expensive decks are not CEDH just powered, I guessed 1/3.

Either way, I have personally seen a lot of non-competitive Thrasios decks over the years - just strong synergies. And my feeling on him is that he's the single most powerful thing you can be doing in commander across a huge spectrum of power levels. Just lots of general purpose power that serves a number of different strategies and is extremely consistent while not drawing a ton of aggro like the most broken stuff.

He sits in that sweet spot where you can just run roughshod over a powered meta and have them not even know what's going on most of the time.

[DirkGently]

I would say not even particularly likely.

I would say the data doesn't support your claim.

If you peruse those card lists you'll see that 34% of those decks have Flash which you can just remove, they're old Flash decks that haven't been removed.

They're flash decks that haven't been *updated*. That doesn't mean the owners aren't still playing updated versions of those lists.

Also I'm not sure how you'd "just remove" those lists when considering other statistics. Does EDHrec have some features I don't know about?

When you start looking at more typical CEDH-differentiating cards like Drown in the Loch you'll see 24% of decks running - which will give you a pretty close estimate of how many are actual CEDH decks.

Maybe I'm showing my ignorance here, but for my money, I can't think of a more clear indicator of cEDH than mental misstep, because it's utterly putrid in classic commander but a staple in cEDH. Drown in the loch doesn't LOOK good enough to me to be always-include staple in cEDH given that it's 2 mana and not always reliable, but it also looks potentially decent in classic commander where I could see people running it outside of cEDH. So I'm dubious about it's differentiating ability.

Also this has nothing to do with infinite mana combos yet, but I'm waiting with bated breath.

Another thing I did was glance at the lists without Flash, and glanced at the first few pages of recent decks - somewhere in the 1/3 to 1/2 range were in the price range I would expect for CEDH decks. Given that there's a possibility that very expensive decks are not CEDH just powered, I guessed 1/3.

I don't think that's a great metric since some people might be building cEDH-adjacent decks on a budget. Toss out the duals and you've probably got a deck that's 99% of the power level at much less cost. And as you mention, expensive lists that aren't cEDH (my thrasios deck was probably like 10K despite having no foils...but nowhere near competitive - in value:power it was probably the worst ratio of anything I've ever built lol).

That said, I'm seeing almost nothing below $1000 which is pretty damn high. Most other commanders have much lower averages/floors from what I can see.

Still not sure what the relevance of this is though tbh, my point was about infinite mana combos and you haven't even mentioned them yet. I think you're wrong that only 1/3 of T&T decks on EDHrec are cEDH...but I don't actually care because that was never my point?

Either way, I have personally seen a lot of non-competitive Thrasios decks over the years - just strong synergies. And my feeling on him is that he's the single most powerful thing you can be doing in commander across a huge spectrum of power levels. Just lots of general purpose power that serves a number of different strategies and is extremely consistent while not drawing a ton of aggro like the most broken stuff.

He sits in that sweet spot where you can just run roughshod over a powered meta and have them not even know what's going on most of the time.

Ok, and you still didn't mention them. Why are you contesting my position that infinite mana thrasios is cEDH if you're not even going to try to refute it?

I can totally believe that he wins a high% of games by virtue of being sneaky-strong. I win a high% of games by being sneaky-strong. But I don't consider that a problem - I consider that something that proper threat assessment should sort out. If Thrasios keeps winning because you're answering all the more-obviously-broken Jodahs of the world while he skates by, then just raise your evaluation of the card until he stops winning so often. It's not a problem until people KNOW how powerful he is, where they're directing him as much hate as Jodah, but he's still consistently winning.

[pokken]

I don't consider your position that infinite Mana thrasios is cedh to need refuting. It's basically as close to implicitly false as any statement I've seen you make. A short skim of extremely suboptimal thrasios decks with infinite Mana combos should prove that.

Thrasios is weird. It's not exactly sneaky strong but that's a fair way to describe it. It's a combination of sneaky strong and cheap and consistent. In a strong meta it's almost never going to be right to focus on him because chulane will go off. It's similar in cedh..if everyone is playing strong decks you almost can't afford to focus on thrasios.

Anyway I don't care to argue it anymore. agree or disagree it's just my opinion at this point.

[DirkGently]

I don't consider your position that infinite Mana thrasios is cedh to need refuting. It's basically as close to implicitly false as any statement I've seen you make. A short skim of extremely suboptimal thrasios decks with infinite Mana combos should prove that.

How do you propose I do this (and how would I compare the number of suboptimal combo decks to the number of combo decks that are optimal)?

But do note that I've been clear that I mean decks for which the infinite combo is (at least one of) their primary plan. Not decks that happen to have a combo which comes together once in a blue moon. If you're playing thrasios and the way you intend to win is to find and play an infinite mana combo, then 99% of the time you're playing cEDH, or close enough as makes no difference.

Thrasios is weird. It's not exactly sneaky strong but that's a fair way to describe it. It's a combination of sneaky strong and cheap and consistent. In a strong meta it's almost never going to be right to focus on him because chulane will go off. It's similar in cedh..if everyone is playing strong decks you almost can't afford to focus on thrasios.

Anyway I don't care to argue it anymore. agree or disagree it's just my opinion at this point.

Again, I don't see how this is a problem. You've got one answer and you're playing chulane and thrasios. If you always choose to use it on chulane because chulane WILL win the game for sure, and thrasios only MIGHT win the game - and then does win the game after you answer chulane - then I don't see how that proves thrasios is better. If the thrasios player deliberately regulates their face-up power level so that people are motivated to target other players, then that's just good strategy, it's not thrasios being OP.

Given the choice, I'd rather play against Thrasios than some dumb piece of crap that requires constant answers or they'll end the game - usually after taking a painfully long turn to churn through most of their deck.

[BounceBurnBuff]

So the argument is now Thrasios is strongest because he is never the right choice to focus when Chulane and company exist? That pretty much implies to me that he is, in fact, much weaker than those commanders.

Is Thrasios ONE of the strongest long-game grinders once everyone blows their load stopping the better commanders? Sure. Is he a powerful commander in and of himself? No.

[pokken]

So the argument is now Thrasios is strongest because he is never the right choice to focus when Chulane and company exist? That pretty much implies to me that he is, in fact, much weaker than those commanders.

Is Thrasios ONE of the strongest long-game grinders once everyone blows their load stopping the better commanders? Sure. Is he a powerful commander in and of himself? No.

It's more that he's never the right choice because he costs 2 and will just come back for 4 (or worst case, 6). It's almost always incorrect to kill him because you should kill the enablers if he goes for a combo. This is *power* because the mana cost of a card is intrinsically connected to its power level. Chulane can be right to kill because no one can soak the tempo of recasting him for 7 or 9.

[umtiger]

Thrasios is weird. It's not exactly sneaky strong but that's a fair way to describe it. It's a combination of sneaky strong and cheap and consistent. In a strong meta it's almost never going to be right to focus on him because chulane will go off. It's similar in cedh..if everyone is playing strong decks you almost can't afford to focus on thrasios.

But Thrasios is sneaky strong...... Somehow, being a little UG 1/3 and not as powerful as Korvold, Golos, Chulane, etc. has convinced some people he's not "as strong."

This is just like in Usual Suspects where Verbal says, "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." Look, Verbal Kint is Keyser Soze. Thrasios is the strongest commander to build around and have in the command zone period.

Sometimes being flexible is just stronger than being strong. And Thrasios is the most flexible because of the partner mechanic, because it's Simic, because it's only 2 cmc, because its ability is instant speed and card selection and ramp.

Anyone can think partner as a mechanic is fine, but Thrasios definitely makes it look not fine. Just like how anyone can think eminence is fine. but Edgar Markov also kinda skirts the not fine line. I'm not pro-ban or anything, but partner sucks as a mechanic. Seriously, why not just play two generals? Even the for funsies deck builders will be facing this choice. You don't think they'll eventually print a partner for every archetype?

Eventually people will be playing more partner decks than non-partner decks. Just give it a few more iterations. After all, it took only a bit before CMDR set generals to outnumber Standard-set generals. But it's here.

I used to think that only people who build to win would make their decks look all the same. But unfortunately, it works the same way for people who build for fun too. I will continue to only build from Legendaries from regular sets, but I'm in the minority here.

Dread it. Run from it. Destiny arrives all the same. Partners will arrive soon.

[onering]

So the argument is now Thrasios is strongest because he is never the right choice to focus when Chulane and company exist? That pretty much implies to me that he is, in fact, much weaker than those commanders.

Is Thrasios ONE of the strongest long-game grinders once everyone blows their load stopping the better commanders? Sure. Is he a powerful commander in and of himself? No.

It's more that he's never the right choice because he costs 2 and will just come back for 4 (or worst case, 6). It's almost always incorrect to kill him because you should kill the enablers if he goes for a combo. This is *power* because the mana cost of a card is intrinsically connected to its power level. Chulane can be right to kill because no one can soak the tempo of recasting him for 7 or 9.

In cEDH maybe, but in anything less he gets swept up as collateral damage to sweepers, and unless there are more important targets its right to take him out regardless, because he's a long term CA engine. If its not right to take him out, its because there are bigger threats at the moment, and one of the reasons he performs so well is because there often ARE bigger threats to point removal at. He's cheap, and can be recast, but at that point his efficiency starts to grievously suffer pretty quickly. At 2 he's nice for the effect, at 4 he's a bit clunky, at 6 to cast he's grossly inefficient and there's almost certainly better things to spend your mana on unless your out of options or you have an infinite mana combo online. Remember, the first activation of his ability requires pumping in 6 mana total, 2 to cast and 4 to activate just to match coiling oracle. Remove him before he gets activated, and now your at 10 mana spent before you get coiling oracles etb! Yeah, he's easy to recast, but if he eats a swords out of the gate he goes from being an efficient low impact long term value engine to an inefficient low impact long term value engine, because you screw his tempo game. If he's in a deck where he's the back up commander (like the one deck I use him in, where Akiri is the star and he's a mana dump to leverage all the mana rocks after I play out my hand), then its less relevant, but he's also less relevant so it evens out (if I'm relying on Thrasios to really help me in that deck, I've already ran into a lot of problems).

As for your point on Chulane, consider this: One opponent controls Chulane, who has been cast once, and another controls Thrasios, who has been cast 3 times, so recasting Chulane will cost 7 and Thrasios 8. Which do you target? If your argument is that you normally would target Chulane because its less likely he can be recast, then by that logic you should target Thrasios here right? But I doubt you would, because Chulane is much more impactful on the board and much more important to remove and keep off the board. Thrasios only hits that level once he's got infinite mana or a strong enabler (in which case Thrasios would either be the correct target even if this is the first time he's been played, or the game would be over). Flip the scenario and both Chulane and Thrasios can easily be recast next turn and both players are likely to do so, which do you target? Probably still Chulane, if only because the tempo hit of not being able to cast other creatures and draw off him is more important than the tempo hit of not activating Thrasios a couple times. Yes, there is power inherit in being cheaper, and thus being easier to recast multiple times with relatively limited tempo, but this is a trade off with Thrasios being less impactful on the board and less of a threat, and his ability, the thing that makes him worthwhile, requiring significant chunks of mana for a low impact effect. His low mana cost and partner ability both add to his power, but without those he wouldn't be worth it. He'd be mediocre if he didn't have partner or if he cost 4, and would flat out suck if he didn't have partner AND cost 4.

[materpillar]

Again, I don't see how this is a problem. You've got one answer and you're playing chulane and thrasios. If you always choose to use it on chulane because chulane WILL win the game for sure, and thrasios only MIGHT win the game - and then does win the game after you answer chulane - then I don't see how that proves thrasios is better. If the thrasios player deliberately regulates their face-up power level so that people are motivated to target other players, then that's just good strategy, it's not thrasios being OP.

Given the choice, I'd rather play against Thrasios than some dumb piece of crap that requires constant answers or they'll end the game - usually after taking a painfully long turn to churn through most of their deck.

I don't know that Thrasios vs Chulane is a good comparison. Chulane costs waaaaay more mana and as a result its onboard presence should be noticeably stronger. A two drop that is slightly more powerful then the average two drop can be way more overpowered than a 5 drop that is way more powerful than the average 5 drop. It depends on what your definition of "overpowered" is. If your definition is of overpowered is "if this card survives until upkeep" what is the resulting win% Chulane is way way better than Thrasios. The recent abundance of cards maximizing this metric at lower and lower mana costs are a blight on the format for sure. That doesn't necessarily mean you should be playing them if your goal is to maximize your overall win% though.

I'd imagine if the metric was "did my general draw me at least 1 card this game" Thrasios's % of accomplishing this is way higher than Chulane's. I also imagine that # of total cards draw in an average game is higher for Thrasios than Chulane across most powerlevels excepting those that are extremely removal light while also not allowing infinite combos. Again, this is pure conjecture on my part.


I think a more interesting comparison is Thrasios, Triton Hero vs Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy. From where I'm sitting, Kinnan seems to be a way stronger card since it is a mana outlet and goes infinite with a huge swath of cards. Is that better than coming stapled to a second general and opening up more colors? I'm not really sure. How do you compare these cards @Pokken?

His low mana cost and partner ability both add to his power, but without those he wouldn't be worth it. He'd be mediocre if he didn't have partner or if he cost 4, and would flat out suck if he didn't have partner AND cost 4.

But he does have a low mana cost and he does have partner thus his powerlevel is high enough that most cEDH decks will chose him over Chulane. Being dramatically harder to price out of castability is a huge strength. Then, he comes with a second commander who likely also has a couple of deaths before being priced out. That's some pretty significant card advantage that comes from just existing. Just from his mana cost and Partner ability he basically says +2 card advantage over Chulane before even reading his textbox. In some metas +2 CA is worse than having Chulane in your command zone. The faster your metagame the less likely that is to be the case though.

[pokken]

I think a more interesting comparison is Thrasios, Triton Hero vs Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy. From where I'm sitting, Kinnan seems to be a way stronger card since it is a mana outlet and goes infinite with a huge swath of cards. Is that better than coming stapled to a second general and opening up more colors? I'm not really sure. How do you compare these cards @Pokken?

They are close in power level until you factor in partner. Thrasios' infinite mana outlet is colorless and wins the game largely with no other compromises (just run one wincon like Finale of Devastation). ; Kinnan's ability is a bit awkward in that it generally enables infinite colorless mana but doesn't benefit from it materially. But it does ramp hard. The issue with Kinnan is being 2 colors and his activated ability being very narrow (you need to be running something like 24 or so non-humans to be able to reliably benefit from it, which is..atypical).

Generally speaking I think if you have to pick ramp or CA on your commander, CA has the edge - ramping is easy to do at absurd rates, generating CA is a bit more difficult. The list of overpowered CA generators is fairly small (stuff like Mystic Remora , Rhystic Study Sylvan Library etc) and is exhausted long before the mana dorks and such.

One of the issues Kinnan has is that he tends to ramp and whiff at least that's my impression of his CEDH deck.

Kinnan is pretty absurdly powerful; I'd say he's probably stronger than Korvold or Chulane just by how consistent he is and the deck is good. Just kinda narrow.