July 2021 Banlist Announcement

[3drinks]

In the latest Commander Advisory Group (CAG) update, Hullbreacher is banned in Commander.

Commander

Hullbreacher is banned.

The following quote is directly from the update, which is currently unavailable due to website issues:

Hullbreacher has been a problem card since its release. Its ostensible defensive use against extra card draw has been dwarfed by offensively combining it with mass-draw effects to easily strip players hands while accelerating the controller. That play pattern isn't something we want prevalent in casual play (see the Leovold ban), and we have seen a lot of evidence that it is too tempting even there, as it combines with wheels and other popular casual staples. The case against the card was overwhelming.

There remain a few similar cards that are still permitted, notably Notion Thief and Narset, Parter of Veils. The additional hoops required (an additional color pip for Notion Thief, and sorcery speed for Narset) appear to be keeping them to the appropriate level of play, though we'll continue to keep an eye on them.

Link if you can get in when he traffic dies down: https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2021 ... 21-update/

[DirkGently]

Oh damn. Especially spicy banning considering it was so recent and printed explicitly for commander. Hopefully it will give some pause to wotc when designing these sorts of things in the future.

Tears shed = 0.

[Dragoon]

I know at least one or two people on these forums who will be happy about it

I still have to draft my Commander Legends box, I hope I won't open too many of these now.

[pokken]

I think I said everything I can say in the thread.

Cue the CEDH community pillorying the RC over it in 3, 2, 1....

With such gems as
"someone hurt Sheldon's feelings with Hullbreacher"
and
"There's an economic lobby that prevents them from banning things on release so I can't respect this"

Still, they're way less reactionary and a lot of positive takes which is frankly surprising and reassuring.

[TheGildedGoose]

It's going to be a fun day in the Commanderverse.

[Dragoon]

Still, they're way less reactionary and a lot of positive takes which is frankly surprising and reassuring.

I can easily imagine how it wasn't fun to play against, even for cEDH players.

[illakunsaa]

Cool

I payed 30 euros for this card and thx to pandemic I got to cast it zero times.

[ISBPathfinder]

I opened one in a box and with Covid didn't see any need to get extras. Then I saw what it was doing and refrained from getting more given I expected a banning. I agree with its ban and have no qualms with it being banned as such. I think that hatebears are good to have in the game but when they go too far you aren't really giving up anything to run them. This one was a problem because it gave you positive value while shutting down one of the most common things people do "draw cards" while ramping you "the other most common thing you want to do".

Its possible if it had less power or didn't have flash it wouldn't have been a problem but being cheap, having flash, and being sort of always relevant is really what did it in.

[plushpenguin]

This was a card I actively avoided playing because of how obnoxious and ridiculous it was, and it was coming from the player in the group known for playing powerful stuff.

[JovialJovian]

Alms Collector already exists to punish massive draws, and does so without the risk to turn a single 3-MV wheel into Overflowing Insight AND Wit's End AND Brass's Bounty.

[folding_music]

incredibly greedy card that I would've liked to have been a red Orc Pirate. and cost four lol. not at all sad to see it go, probably the main black eye on CMR which is an incredible set otherwise

[Hawk]

Building Pirates is on my to-do list but I've been too in love with Quintorius, Field Historian to get around to it (since I've only started playing a reasonable amount of EDH in the last 6 weeks or so and wanted to play Quin in almost every match for testing), so I never got around to buying one of these and am now glad I don't have to sweat it. Never played against it, but just in practice it looked gross and dumb and I'm glad it is gone.

[UnNamed1]

Personally don't agree with this one bit, but I also didn't agree with Flash ban. I guess if the content creators call for it, it will happen.

Its a strong stax piece, but no stronger than say the Orb lineup. Oh well. If Winter Orb was printed today, I fully believe it would be banned with how much people hate any bit of stax.

[Candlemane]

As someone who sold theirs and hates the card in general, this is the happiest moment of my day so far. Hell yes! Burn in the nine hells Hullbreacher!

The problem with Hullbreahcer was always multifaceted. It was an instant speed response to anyone daring to draw extra cards, stayed as a static effect, and pushed the user into possible overdrive. Beyond that, its less obvious effects were making it harder to kill because of a lack of resources when used offensively, and being a creature made it both more fragile but easier to recur or protect.

It also can just stop a game dead by taking away the ability to play the game in general and not specifically against it, which is something I'm firmly against. May a card like this never see the light of day again without a major change in function.

[JovialJovian]

Personally don't agree with this one bit, but I also didn't agree with Flash ban. I guess if the content creators call for it, it will happen.

Its a strong stax piece, but no stronger than say the Orb lineup. Oh well. If Winter Orb was printed today, I fully believe it would be banned with how much people hate any bit of stax.

The issue was the asymmetry, Winter Orb isn't fun to play against, but it requires some thought to gain an advantage with it, you can't just slap it down.
The other issue was the permanence of the resource imbalance. Winter Orb locks up resources, it doesn't eliminate them. Hullbreacher creates lasting value out of the resources it strips from your opponents.
And on top of it all, it's got flash and is too cheap for the effect.

There's limits to what the format can sustain, wotc tested that boundary, and stepped over it.

[TheGildedGoose]

I somewhat disagree with their reasoning but agree with the ban. It's not necessarily that Hullbreacher is too good with wheels, it's that it's incredibly strong on its own and also is a win condition. It's a) an efficient body with flash b) that shuts down extra draw and c) ramps you while d) comboing with cards that are already strong on their own. Four increasingly strong effects for the lost cost of is just absurd in what is already the best color in the format.

[Lifeless]

Yeah this is a strange justification for banning (based off a clearly stated bias against wheels) but the card can get bent so happy with the result.

[3drinks]

Cool

I payed 30 euros for this card and thx to pandemic I got to cast it zero times.

No one told you to buy questionably busted chase cards when you had zero propensity to play in the meantime. You have only yourself to blame for this.

[Igzex]

Pfffft hahahahaha! He never scored! Good f'n riddance. Kinda wish he took Opposition Agent with him but I'll take what I can get. Dunno why it's so hard for WOTC to design cards that hose problems without the card itself introducing problems of its own. I hope having Hullbreacher's head on a pike will serve as an example to other combo pieces that want to disguise themselves as hatebears because Leovold's head sure didn't.

[Krishnath]

Good riddance to an unfun card. I never played the copy I got when I bought a commander legends box to draft because of how obviously unfun it was to play against. Honestly, I am surprised it took this long.

(Oh, an incidentally, expect the new Asmodeus card to get banned, for the same reason Griselbrand did.)

[BeneTleilax]

Hell yeah! Hated seeing that card cast, never wanted to cast it. It's just so unpleasant to play against, and stupidly powerful to play. I can respect Stax, although I don't generally play it myself, because it requires beating your opponents under symmetrical constraints. Hullbreacher makes no tradeoffs, he requires no skill, and he locks people out of the game.

[Dunharrow]

Cool

I payed 30 euros for this card and thx to pandemic I got to cast it zero times.

No one told you to buy questionably busted chase cards when you had zero propensity to play in the meantime. You have only yourself to blame for this.

While I am happy with the banning, I wholeheartedly am against this kind of comment.
If HB wasn't banned, maybe the price would have gone up with time. @illakunsaa could have bought this for cEDH, could have bought this because they have a treasure deck... it doesn't matter why, there are any number of valid reasons to buy this. And the pandemic is hardly something they can control.
Any card banning in any format is a FAILURE by WOTC and it carries immense baggage. It is their fault, not @illakunsaa's fault.
I remember when Splinter Twin was banned in Modern. I had friends that had just gotten their decks. Is it their fault for not trying to guess what could maybe be banned?
No. It is WOTC's fault, and getting burned by bannings HURTS players.

Interestingly, on Arena, when a card is banned you get Gems as compensation.
But in the paper world, forget about it.

It is so frustrating! Could you imagine buying a car from a dealership and finding out it is not street-legal? Could you imagine buying your groceries and not being reimbursed when the chicken is recalled due to contamination?

In any sane world Banned cards would result in some kind of compensation. "you spent money on our product but you are not allowed to use it"
I am sure they have disclaimers for this kind of stuff, but it is in all normal senses wrong and blaming players is 100% incorrect.

[BeneTleilax]

In any sane world Banned cards would result in some kind of compensation. "you spent money on our product but you are not allowed to use it"
I am sure they have disclaimers for this kind of stuff, but it is in all normal senses wrong and blaming players is 100% incorrect.

The problem lies in WotC printing cards like this in the first place, not in the ban, especially as WotC didn't even ban it. Having your cards banned sucks, I have a Paradox Engine sitting sadly in my binder (still think it should stay banned, tho). That said, demanding compensation is absurd. It would only make WotC more ban-shy and protect the most expensive and obnoxious cards (and those with the disposable income to pick them easily) from format controls.

I also think "jam it 'til they ban it", while it might make sense in more competitive formats, is absolutely toxic to EDH. The chilling effect of a potential ban is not just a side-effect of the RC's format controls, it is an essential part of how they control the format. The more aggressively players try to call their bluff on obvious problem cards, the more aggressively they have to ban. It's the worst sort of rules-literalism, and will only undermine Rule 0.

[JovialJovian]

The problem lies in WotC printing cards like this in the first place, not in the ban, especially as WotC didn't even ban it. Having your cards banned sucks, I have a Paradox Engine sitting sadly in my binder (still think it should stay banned, tho). That said, demanding compensation is absurd. It would only make WotC more ban-shy and protect the most expensive and obnoxious cards (and those with the disposable income to pick them easily) from format controls.

Precisely.
Wotc has washed their hands in situations like this, their classic "We don't acknowledge the secondary market" line. But, bans of hot cards make players mad, they don't want mad players. This situation will encourage R&D to reign-back on these super-pushed cards. This is why its important to have a rules-setting team that's independent of the marketing team. Hasbro corporate would just push the power creep if cards like this didn't get banned out.

[illakunsaa]

Cool

I payed 30 euros for this card and thx to pandemic I got to cast it zero times.

No one told you to buy questionably busted chase cards when you had zero propensity to play in the meantime. You have only yourself to blame for this.

Wasn't RC involved when making commander legends? They knew about jeweled lotus so how come breacher slipped the cracks?

If anything rc should at least refund me.