Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[yeti1069]

I...don't like Spree at all. Here's a card that doesn't actually do anything for its cost--you have to pay the additional costs. It's like kicker, or multi-kicker, except the base card doesn't do anything. It just seems...unintuitive.

I think it could have been:

Choose one:
*Topdeck tutor
*Draw 3/Lose 3
Entwine

[PrimevalCommander]

Insatiable Avaric — That is going in every black related deck in existence period! The the 2 Spree cost makes it a budget Imperial Seal and if you got a additional bb your throwing in Ancient Craving

I'm a little lower on this card. I think the main draw is the cheaper Ancient Craving. Cruel Tutor is a card and is not seeing any play. There is a big difference between and . The entwine for , while expensive is pretty cool as Demonic Tutor + Draw 2 cards, which is one of the best ways to cast the spell I would think. We typically want out tutors to be as low mana as possible to offset the tempo hit of casting the spell. Paying 3 to put your card on the top of the library is not attractive when Grim Tutor gets it to hand. The Draw option is your standby, with the entwine cost being your late game "I need it now" option with some added card advantage. I'd play it in mono-black, but not in anything 3 color for sure.


Rakdos, Hired Muscle looks quite strong as a commander. In a similar vein to Ob Nixilis, Captive Kingpin. Typical power creep gives me flashbacks to Korvold, Fae-Cursed King in that Rakdos has a sacrifice payoff (strong one) and a sacrifice ability all on his own. Throw in some Reanimate, Buried Alive, Entomb, Animate Dead, and Necromancy and you can turbo through your, or someone elses, deck in short order. Though I'm not sure how you cast all the cards you are exiling with him without a bunch of rituals and the like. Probably a decent turbo reanimator list or something. High mana value creatures let you see the most cards, but little ones can just be good value of course.

[Hawk]

Yeah, I think Insatiable Avarice is mostly only good in mono-black, and mostly worse than Demonic Tutor, Read the Bones, and Vampiric Tutor for digging/tutoring purposes. It is better than Ancient Craving/Ambition's Cost (again, in mono-B) and Beseech the Queen, Diabolic Tutor, Grim Tutor/Cruel Tutor, and probably mostly even with Dark Petition. Solid card, very playable, but not an automatic staple especially if you are playing more colors.

And Spree is fine to me, because it is a little different from Entwine imo due to the ability to have multiple effects at a variety of different costs. It also fills a different niche than Escalate. It seems most similar to Fuse, actually, but Spree lets them have more complex abilities than a split card would allow for and the option to have more than one mode, like we see on the also totally awesome Great Train Heist (which has a "fail state" of being Relentless Assault with the option to tack on or do a bunch of different effects).

[yeti1069]

Conceptually, I just really hate that these are cards that don't do anything if you cast them without paying additional costs. While not every deck dabbles in random free-casting, they can be fairly awkward the times that comes up, even if you're not the one instigating them. I can't think of any Magic card that reads: Cast for X: do nothing.

[folding_music]

^ swirling sandstorm <3

I do think they could simply have used existing mechanics to construct these new charms but I want to be a pedant giggle

[5colorsrainbow]

I love vehicles so mounts and saddle is right up my lane and might mix some inti Kykar.

Kellan is also fun by being an adventure commander that opens up to any cast from exile cards.

[CommanderMaster999]

Welp looking at Gonti face commander card let me put it this way….

…. How do you feel him giving all the creatures the Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer ability but without the treasure and the mana is rainbow when casting the stuff, and includes "one or more".

And for a cherry on top…… he reduces the cost of spells you cast but don't own by 1

[DirkGently]

Oh baby Final Showdown. It's been so long since we got a good instant-speed board wipe for Phelddagrif.

I think it does a good job of exemplifying what Spree can do that couldn't be done with a different mechanic. You can use it as an Ephemeral Shields or a Dress Down if you're in a tight spot and low on mana, or you can use it as a board wipe for 6, or a board wipe with various upsides for 7-8. I agree that the mechanic looks kinda weird but there is mechanical utility to it. Not sure why they have different frames, though, that's kinda random.

Commanders so far look a lot more compelling to me than the Fallout ones. Definitely some spicy ones in there.

Gonti looks bad though @CommanderMaster999. Only triggers once per opponent? Ick. Ragavan is strong because he costs 1. For 5 mana I expect a LOT more. And I'd much rather have a treasure than a discount since you can bank the treasures even if you whiff. I mean compare Gonti to Plargg and Nassari, another 5-drop that casts stuff from enemy libraries. P+N have basically zero setup cost, are guaranteed to hit spells instead of lands, they cast those spells for free instead of paying for them...

[CommanderMaster999]

Has golgari ever gotten a "creature spells cost 1 less" before? Because that's what Old Rutstein 2.0 does (oh and ETB is regrowth a creature)

[Mookie]

OTJ stuff!

Mechanics:

• Outlaws seem fine. I suspect there will be some memory issues when trying to recall which creature types are outlaws. I've seen pirate decks that already support outlaw cards, and there are a few rogue and assassin decks out there, but I don't see outlaw cards slotting into many existing commander decks. Changelings love it though.
• Crimes seem pretty easy to trigger. You do need a little support, but there are lots of cards that can target stuff for free. I'll need to do some analysis to determine how many triggers my decks have, and whether the payoffs are worth the effort.
• Spree is a mix of kicker, entwine, and escalate. So... it's kicker. Flexibility is good, although it does come at a premium cost.
• Mount / saddle is essentially a new version of vehicles. I don't think I'm currently running any vehicles in my decks, but I could see myself running some mounts - the fact that they are always a creature means there is a higher floor.
• Plot seems... okay? There are some payoffs for cards that care about casting stuff for free / from exile / multiple spells per turn. Otherwise, most of the plot cards cost the same to plot vs hardcast, so it's usually better to get your spell immediately.
• Legends - not an explicit mechanic, but it does seem to be a theme. I have mixed feelings about the legend creep in most sets, but I'm willing to give it a slide here because this is explicitly a crossover set with a bunch of returning characters. Payoffs like Vraska Joins Up give legends additional mechanical relevance, and are great for my cube (which has a heavy legend focus).

Cards:

• Vaultborn Tyrant - daaaaang. Seven mana is a lot, but I do love battlecruisery value cards.
• The Key to the Vault is interesting. Five mana is a high startup cost, and you don't generate as much card advantage as something like Robe of the Archmagi... but free spells are free spells.
• Ruthless Lawbringer looks very nice. Orzhov has a ton of strong removal options, but this looks competitive with the best of them, assuming you have sac fodder. 3 mana is, of course, the magic number - I look forward to looping it with Sun Titan.
• Honest Rutstein also looks nice. Eternal Witness and Gloomshrieker are other cheap recursion options, but Rutstein's discount text gives it an edge in creature-heavy decks.
• Colossal Rattlewurm is a four mana 6/5 with multiple upsides - flash, trample, and it flashes back for Rampant Growth. Seems gooooood.
• Make Your Own Luck seems fun. Harmonize is just so-so these days, but casting one for free seems good.
• Final Showdown is an instant-speed board wipe with some additional flexibility. Expensive, but I could see it being quite good.
• Gisa, the Hellraiser is a very efficient token producer - two tokens per turn seems very strong. I'll need to do math to see how many crimes I can commit in Teysa, but Blood Artist loves it.
• Tinybones Joins Up is adorable, and going straight in my cube. Not sure about it in commander, but repeatable mill / life loss / crime triggers are certainly relevant for some decks.
• The Gitrog, Ravenous Ride looks fun. Better Greven, Predator Captain? Not strictly better (Greven's Hatred gives easy commander damage, and he has an attack trigger instead of needing to connect), but Gitrog certainly seems fun.
• Annie Flash, the Veteran is interesting. Throw in some untap effects and ways to tap her (such as mounts) and you have a strong impulsive draw engine.
• Kellan, the Kid works with plot, adventures, suspend, and plenty of other mechanics. Seems alright.
• Vraska, the Silencer looks fun. to activate is a little clunky, but stealing your opponents' stuff when it dies seems quite fun. Much easier to trigger than Shelob, Child of Ungoliant too.
• Rakdos, the Muscle looks sweet. I'm running Falkenrath Aristocrat and Immersturm Predator in my cube, but one of them is likely coming out for Rakdos.

Overall, lots of cool stuff so far!

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

That {G} pip right in the middle between {B} and {U} in Gonti, Canny Acquisitor and Villainous Wealth looking around nervously and wondering why it's even there.

Nice to see that the Gitrog survived, it better avoid wandering into the deserts though.

[yeti1069]

Has golgari ever gotten a "creature spells cost 1 less" before? Because that's what Old Rutstein 2.0 does (oh and ETB is regrowth a creature)

Umori, the Collector, for one, but there are also some monogreen cards that do the same.

[yeti1069]

Gonti looks bad though @CommanderMaster999. Only triggers once per opponent? Ick. Ragavan is strong because he costs 1. For 5 mana I expect a LOT more. And I'd much rather have a treasure than a discount since you can bank the treasures even if you whiff. I mean compare Gonti to Plargg and Nassari, another 5-drop that casts stuff from enemy libraries. P+N have basically zero setup cost, are guaranteed to hit spells instead of lands, they cast those spells for free instead of paying for them...

I'm not thrilled with the new Gonti, personally, but Ragavan stops being useful very swiftly as people drop blockers, whereas you can turn any of your evasive 1, 2, 3, 4 drops into Ragavan clones as soon as your commander drops. Also, while, sure, a treasure is better than a discount of to a subset of spells...Gonti's cards never go away, so you can stockpile cards for use later, whereas 75% of the time I see a Ragavan connect, the exiled card is basically ignored.

P+N have to wait a turn cycle to do anything, then an opponent gets to choose the best spell from among those exiled for you not to get, and then you get 2 of the remaining spells. They're vastly different. P+N, as a commander, would also be monored instead of tri-color. Hitting lands with Gonti can be a feature, not a bug, and holding a second hand that continues to grow each turn, full of hidden information can itself be powerful. Did you grab someone's interaction? Are you holding the card they're trying to tutor for a turn or two later?

You can also double up on Gonti's triggers with first strike and double strike, or Roaming Throne, (or quadruple up).

[duducrash]

Honest Rutstein - might be Karador playable
Fblthp, Lost on the Range - he could be a great storm enabler

[pokken]

Holy crap Freestrider Lookout is...a little busted. Maze of Ith Deserted Temple bs, go bananas.

Life from the Loam + Boseiju, Who Endures / Otawara, Soaring City loops become ramp.


yuck.

Stone-Seeder Hierophant goes infinite if you don't miss :D (well, not infinite, but every player turn)

[Cyberium]

I...don't like Spree at all. Here's a card that doesn't actually do anything for its cost--you have to pay the additional costs. It's like kicker, or multi-kicker, except the base card doesn't do anything. It just seems...unintuitive.

Mayhap, but it looks like they're all 1cc to begin with, which means they can be storm fodders when you don't need them for other purposes.

[toctheyounger]

Final Showdown is beautiful. Not sure every mode is helpful every time, but an instant speed wipe is never to sniff at.

Rakdos, the Muscle is GROSS. Tymna the Weaver / Dargo, the Shipwrecker has a new win con, card is gonna go off in at least a couple great ways.

[pokken]

does Kellan, the Kid go infinite with Possibility Storm? that seems cute as heck. :D

not exactly infinite, but like, chaining a bunch of times for sure depending on your MV starting spell and what's in your hand, and if you draw more cards with any of the random crap that gets cast?

[Mookie]

Holy Cow + Bovine Intervention = has_magic_flavor_gone_too_far.jpg

Freestrider Lookout looks quite strong. Definitely interested in it for Samut, who already has a bunch of ways to target stuff. Targeting opponents' stuff with Samut / Scryb Ranger / etc. feels a little weird, but I'll definitely do it... to say nothing of Humble Defector. I'll have to keep an eye out for other crime cards for the deck.

edit: Ertha Jo, Frontier Mentor is an uncommon Panharmonicon for abilities, and another fantastic Samut card.

[Dunadain]

I have no interest in playing him, but Kellan, the Kid is exactly the kind of mechanic support that I was talking about way back when.

Much better design than Gorion, Wise Mentor and Beluna Grandsquall // Seek Thrills.

Edit: Mana Drain reprint?!?!?!?! O.O

[pokken]

Probably the thing that upsets me the most about this set so far is the horrifying treatments in the breaking news cards. those cards are ugly af.

[Venedrex]

Holy crap Freestrider Lookout is...a little busted. Maze of Ith Deserted Temple bs, go bananas.

Life from the Loam + Boseiju, Who Endures / Otawara, Soaring City loops become ramp.


yuck.

Stone-Seeder Hierophant goes infinite if you don't miss :D (well, not infinite, but every player turn)

Perhaps Lotus Field Pioneer decks might be interested...

[DirkGently]

I'm not thrilled with the new Gonti, personally, but Ragavan stops being useful very swiftly as people drop blockers,

Replace the evasive creatures you were going to play with equipment to make Ragavan evasive.

Also, while, sure, a treasure is better than a discount of to a subset of spells...Gonti's cards never go away, so you can stockpile cards for use later, whereas 75% of the time I see a Ragavan connect, the exiled card is basically ignored.

That's true, but I think the bigger reason you see those cards get ignored is because taking a random card from an opponents deck usually isn't very helpful. Too many cards are synergy pieces that won't be very impactful without the rest of the deck supporting them.

P+N have to wait a turn cycle to do anything, then an opponent gets to choose the best spell from among those exiled for you not to get, and then you get 2 of the remaining spells. They're vastly different. P+N, as a commander, would also be monored instead of tri-color. Hitting lands with Gonti can be a feature, not a bug, and holding a second hand that continues to grow each turn, full of hidden information can itself be powerful. Did you grab someone's interaction? Are you holding the card they're trying to tutor for a turn or two later?

They aren't a perfect 1:1 comparison but c'mon, we're talking about freecasting spells with no setup vs paying for maybe-spells with significant setup. The upsides are vastly outpaced by the downsides, and P+N isn't a particularly popular commander in the first place.

And again, having played P+N, Gonti, Geth, Etali, and probably other commanders of similar effect - the hit rate for useful cards really does suck when you're taking from enemy libraries.

You can also double up on Gonti's triggers [...] Roaming Throne.

You can also do that with P+N.

[folding_music]

Miriam's ability set and look makes me think Ranger not Druid! Druid and Shaman are really haphazard, slightly abused creature types anyway so this isn't unusual as such

sorta relieved that the mechanics in this set don't suit me cos I'm looking ahead to bloomburrow

[yeti1069]

I'm not thrilled with the new Gonti, personally, but Ragavan stops being useful very swiftly as people drop blockers,

Replace the evasive creatures you were going to play with equipment to make Ragavan evasive.

Also, while, sure, a treasure is better than a discount of to a subset of spells...Gonti's cards never go away, so you can stockpile cards for use later, whereas 75% of the time I see a Ragavan connect, the exiled card is basically ignored.

That's true, but I think the bigger reason you see those cards get ignored is because taking a random card from an opponents deck usually isn't very helpful. Too many cards are synergy pieces that won't be very impactful without the rest of the deck supporting them.

P+N have to wait a turn cycle to do anything, then an opponent gets to choose the best spell from among those exiled for you not to get, and then you get 2 of the remaining spells. They're vastly different. P+N, as a commander, would also be monored instead of tri-color. Hitting lands with Gonti can be a feature, not a bug, and holding a second hand that continues to grow each turn, full of hidden information can itself be powerful. Did you grab someone's interaction? Are you holding the card they're trying to tutor for a turn or two later?

They aren't a perfect 1:1 comparison but c'mon, we're talking about freecasting spells with no setup vs paying for maybe-spells with significant setup. The upsides are vastly outpaced by the downsides, and P+N isn't a particularly popular commander in the first place.

And again, having played P+N, Gonti, Geth, Etali, and probably other commanders of similar effect - the hit rate for useful cards really does suck when you're taking from enemy libraries.

You can also double up on Gonti's triggers [...] Roaming Throne.

You can also do that with P+N.

Well, Rags can't use lands, and half the time it exiles a nonland, that card is too expensive to cast in the moment, even if it would be useful/is a bomb.

I agree that casting spells for free is better than having to cast them yourself, but P+N is a poor comparison--it has pluses and minuses vs the new Gonti, but it being unpopular as a commander has less to do with its ability, and more to do with its color identity and inability to be built around well. Mono-red steal from opponents' decks doesn't come with a ton of support to make it interesting. What does the deck DO around that commander? How do you improve it? I think those options are scant, particularly compared with a Sultai commander that wants combat damage triggers, for which there is a ton of support.

The closer comparison to Gonti is Evelyn, who does largely the same thing, but with ETB triggers from a subset of creatures. I think that's definitely better than Gonti on the whole, but swapping red for green means you've more options for big mana to make use of all those resources you've been accumulating and Gonti provides a discount on those spells to make it easier to make use of them.

I just think you're too quick to %$#% all over cards. I'm not excited by it, but I think it's interesting, and better than you're making it out to be.