TheAmericanSpirit wrote: ↑3 years ago
But that kind of victory falls under lucky/kingmaking/pity as I stated prior.
Hard disagree on that one. Not sure how you'd argue that to be true. Correct threat assessment =/= pity or kingmaking. And every win is lucky to some degree. A good player can do better with worse odds, though. Playing a precon forces them to do so.
You didn't really earn that victory, you didn't outplay anyone, you pulled a Fransico Franco and just happened to be the last man standing.
Sometimes I'll play new players who don't know what they're doing and are (correctly) threat assessed as a low priority, and end up winning "by accident". That doesn't mean manipulating that situation to happen on purpose doesn't require skill.
Have yoy ever played cedh? I have.
against cedh, yes. With cedh, no. Well, except once - years ago there was a tournament at a GP or something so I put together a food chain tazri deck. Started with food chain in hand, and had like 20 tutors I could have hit for the instant combo win. Proceeded to topdeck nothing but lands and counterspells for 11 turns and lost to a table of 75%- decks. Lol.
But playing a precon against the field is definitely the shortest path to regular losses.
I'd put a skilled player with a precon over an unskilled player with a copypasta from edhrec any day.
I'm sorry, do you mean "inept"? Just curious.
Nope. Inapt means "not apt".
And I stand by all my metaphors, thank you very much. The best edh games are balanced in my experience. Playing a precon against real decks is crippling yourself. You don't have be Usain Bolt to run a 5K, but if you're going to try to run it in loafers, you're typically gonna have a bad time and you will not be viewed as taking the competition seriously.
I agree that the best edh games are balanced, but honestly most LGS commander players are (there's no way to say this without sounding like a prick) very bad at magic. Most games I play a precon, I think it's actually pretty even-steven in terms of overall chance to win (not always, ofc).
I thought the goal was too improve at the game. Perfect practice makes perfect.
There's many ways to practice. Repeating the same thing over and over sounds like a very boring way to practice to me, personally. You may have noticed I build new decks pretty frequently.
As for the "go play tournaments" argument, that's just classic gatekeeping and ignores the various reasons players enjoy edh. Why do you think cedh exists otherwise?
I don't think I should answer that question. :$
Many people enjoy playing tight games, and no, not every player is just goldfishing storm. There's a fair amount of interesting, nonlinear decks that require practice and lines to play correctly. What with your meta globetrotting, I figured you would know that.
I haven't played a deck in years that I didn't basically have down within a few runs or less. Probably my standards for "having it down" are looser than most though.
Everyone's entitled to their idea of fun, but I suspect that for a lot of people, it's less about finding the pursuit of perfect play "fun", and more about justifying how much money they've sunk into their deck by playing it ad nauseum. But maybe that's the armchair psychologist in me.
You're entitled to that opinion, but I've never seen any professional players slinging precons for practice.
Stop. Comparing. Tournament. Magic. To. Commander.
If you want experience working with minimal resources, limited will teach you a whole lot more in that regard than getting stomped with a precon in hand.
¿Porque no los dos?
It's a "challenge" in the sense that you're fighting uphill from turn one, your opponents will remain largely unchallenged by your mediocre cards, and you've unbalanced the table (unless playing against other precons). I would 100% rather play with/against someone who contribute to board control, present legitimate threats, and won't flood out with their stock 41 land manabase. It's basically turning the game into 3 players and one who barely counts.
Ok so three things:
1) I've told you that, when I've played precons, it's usually been a relatively even win% from where I'm sitting. If that isn't true for your meta, then ok, maybe it's not. Nobody is making you do it. But stop claiming it's impossible to have a reasonable chance with a precon. I've literally done it. In many metas, including every one I've been in, it is absolutely doable. Idk why you keep arguing about how hard it is when you've never even tried it, and I'm telling you I've done it and you're dismissing me.
2) Idk why it would "unbalance" the table more than a 3p game. Worst case scenario it's basically the same. We've all had games where one person got stuck on 2 land or whatever and it was basically 3p. The fourth player doesn't make it worse than none at all.
3) I do genuinely think you're underestimating the card quality of modern precons. They're usually a bit unfocused in their strategy (as are most peoples' decks tbh), but it's not like 2011 with
Razorjaw Oni and other garbage bodies in the decks. Most cards make reasonable sense. I will say I've found the
Ranar the Ever-Watchful precon to be a bit underwhelming, which is the first of the released-with-the-expansion precons I've bought, but the main series from ikoria last year felt relatively strong to me. I remember absolutely demolishing some people with the mutate deck.
Again, limited will teach these lessons better. More likely, you will find yourself a mana short on several critical moments, and you will lose because of it.
Why better? I'd say it manifests pretty differently between edh and limited.
But also I play a lot of limited and it's my favorite format (very close with commander ofc). It's a lot easier to find commander than limited around here, though.
I really can't clarify anymore if your reading comprehension is really that bad. I have heard players express remorse for a pubstomp because they misread a table. Usually they want to catch another game and know that no one will engage again unless they acknowledge fault. Whether that's a selfishly motivated action or true remorse is subject to debate, but it happens.
I'm glad people are doing that in your vicinity, but I can't personally recall anyone saying it in games I've been part of. But my memory does suck.
I'm advocating for table balance in all forms. Precons do not belong against real, tuned decks and vice versa.
Let me throw it back at you and say that skill mismatches can just as easily throw off game balance. Playing a weaker deck, such as a precon, is a way to counter that inequity. I don't generally play precons against skilled opponents. Though I do remember a skilled opponent beating ME with a precon - that was a brutal loss, lemme tell you.
Bringing a knife to a known gunfight is just depriving yourself and others of a satisfying gunfight, imo.
Are we talking about GK or precons? I was referring to GK with my knife/gun analogy. I wouldn't call GK a "known gunfight".
You just end up like the Ugly and the end of Good, Bad, and the Ugly, without bullets and waiting to see if you luck out by everyone else killing each other. You are not giving yourself a meaningful amount of agency over the course of the game, and these games are best when interactive.
Ofc you would reference spaghetti westerns
but I do think you're underestimating precons here. Looking through the Jeskai cycling deck (the deck I've probably played most of recent precons) for interaction, there's:
I mean, I've built decks with more interaction, but that's still a pretty significant amount. More than most peoples' decks, from what I can tell.
And seriously, lay off the condescension. You're not special, pretty, or charming because you think you can whoop anyone with a precon. You may be all those things in spite of that, but that tone is both unwarranted and unfounded.
I definitely don't think I can beat ANYONE. I'm just saying they're a viable option in most metas.
You sure do leap to personal attacks quickly. I'll admit to being a bit sarcastic, but I'm not sure what you expect me to say. I start with "I've done this in many metas, and it's been a reasonable play experience" and then you come at me with "that's impossible, precons are trash". Ok, but I've already done it so...do you expect me to refute your theorycraft?