Warhammer 40K, Lord of the Rings, and other IPs in Magic.

[Dunharrow]

I would virtually guarantee multiple busted commanders in those products. If there isn't a space marine that is at least like chulane level annoying I'd be super surprised.

This stuff will be waaaaay more pushed than standard sets.

But most products in the last decade have contained busted commanders.
It won't be a standard set, which means power level *can* be higher (though I'd argue Standard sets have been way overpowered for a few years).
But even Battlebond had bad cards.
And rares and mythics that were bad.
Like, I hope Gandalf isn't the next Kinnan, but if he is, don't tell me that another competing product would not have had an overpowered card.

I get that there is some pressure to make it so that people's favourite cards are not trash. It would be a real shame if Aragorn was an Emmara Tandris. But clearly, whatever the product is, there will be bad cards.

[pokken]

I would virtually guarantee multiple busted commanders in those products. If there isn't a space marine that is at least like chulane level annoying I'd be super surprised.

This stuff will be waaaaay more pushed than standard sets.

But most products in the last decade have contained busted commanders.
It won't be a standard set, which means power level *can* be higher (though I'd argue Standard sets have been way overpowered for a few years).
But even Battlebond had bad cards.
And rares and mythics that were bad.
Like, I hope Gandalf isn't the next Kinnan, but if he is, don't tell me that another competing product would not have had an overpowered card.

I get that there is some pressure to make it so that people's favourite cards are not trash. It would be a real shame if Aragorn was an Emmara Tandris. But clearly, whatever the product is, there will be bad cards.

Every set has bad cards, but Modern Horizons, Battlebond and Commander Legends all added way more high powered cards that impact commander than a standard set typically does. Do you think I'm saying there won't be bad cards? Because nowhere did I say that. There will be lots of very good cards that impact the format though.

And so we can expect that whatever is in these they will be pushed significantly more than a standard set. Add onto that the likely marketing push, and you have to understand the trepidation right?

I'm not one of the sky-is-falling guys but I do think it's very likely that a huge number of cards from these sets see lots of play.

Anyway, it's really pretty useless worrying about it, I just saw a stub of an argument floating through the thread that basically reads:

Not many of these cards will be playable so don't expect to see them everywhere, because how many cards from a standard set see play?

Which is not accurate. They're not standard sets.

Look at the space marine decks as an example. We know historically there is one extremely pushed card in almost every commander deck. the Dockside Extortionist or Fierce Guardianship or Tempt with Discovery or whatever, that becomes a critical card in the format. Then we know that there is almost always a busted commander somewhere in a release, though not usually in every deck.

So we can probably reasonably expect:
* 1-2 new format staples that a) don't fit the theme of the format, and b) are really desirable for some archetypes (Tempt with Discovery ) and possibly autoincludes in their colors (Dockside Extortionist).
* >=1 Chulane, Teller of Tales / Korvold, Fae-Cursed King powered general that again doesn't match the theme of the format.

Knowing my luck the busted commander will be something I really find interesting for once


I feel the need to qualify again that I am not doom and gloom or throwing a giant fit about the UB stuff, I just have mixed feelings and think the responses to doubters in this thread have been a bit callous. There's a whole lot of "well suck it up buttercup you're wrong to feel upset"

[Wallycaine]

Umm let's not oversell how expensive 40k is. When I was playing I built entire armies for 400-500 bucks. When I was playing a box of space marines was $35. Now they're $55. So worst case a 2000 pt army prob sets you back about $800 or so.

And that's assuming you don't buy used. I bought so much stuff second hand. And the rates are quite cheap typically.

All things considered it's a pretty cheap hobby and you can usually get half of your money back, and more if you're a good painter..

(When I got out I had spent maybe $3000 and I cashed out for $1200 in two weeks. Could have itemized for a lot more)

Right, but for comparison you only need, say, 50 bucks to have a decent commander deck, probably close to the equivalent of that 800 dollar 40k army. Or if you're picking up stuff second hand, you can probably get a decent deck out of castoffs and maybe 25 dollars. So yes, you *can* get into 40K on the 'cheap', just like you can theoretically get into commander on the cheap. But the average investment is a lot closer to that couple thousand dollars, just like your average commander player's investment is much larger than the 50 bucks you could put a deck together for, if still smaller than your 40K investment. And it's not exactly like Magic cards have no resale value either.

[pokken]

Right, but for comparison you only need, say, 50 bucks to have a decent commander deck,

$50 decks are a horrible play experience especially playing in established communities. In my group of 50 or so people in and out of the local game store in one of the poorest areas of the country you're hard pressed to find anyone playing a deck under $200 on a regular basis and most are closer to $500.

I'll grant that the barrier to entry is higher in 40k but you can always play kill team type stuff or 500pt battles. I played a TON of 500 pt matches when I started out. And the games were balanced unlike playing a $50 chum deck against a buncha sharks

Just like your average commander player's investment is much larger than the 50 bucks you could put a deck together for, if still smaller than your 40K investment.

I think it's extremely unlikely your average commander player has less money in the hobby than your average 40k player. When I was playin 40k most people had a single army they'd spent under 500 on, and a few guys had huge investments upward of 5k and multiple armies.

In Magic most people I see are buying packs or singles every week and buying new product with some regularity.

No one I know buys a precon and and adds $15 to it and then keeps it as is forever.

And it's not exactly like Magic cards have no resale value either.

Sure, but you can't buy them cheaper used which is kinda the point.

[Dunharrow]

I would virtually guarantee multiple busted commanders in those products. If there isn't a space marine that is at least like chulane level annoying I'd be super surprised.

This stuff will be waaaaay more pushed than standard sets.

But most products in the last decade have contained busted commanders.
It won't be a standard set, which means power level *can* be higher (though I'd argue Standard sets have been way overpowered for a few years).
But even Battlebond had bad cards.
And rares and mythics that were bad.
Like, I hope Gandalf isn't the next Kinnan, but if he is, don't tell me that another competing product would not have had an overpowered card.

I get that there is some pressure to make it so that people's favourite cards are not trash. It would be a real shame if Aragorn was an Emmara Tandris. But clearly, whatever the product is, there will be bad cards.

Every set has bad cards, but Modern Horizons, Battlebond and Commander Legends all added way more high powered cards that impact commander than a standard set typically does. Do you think I'm saying there won't be bad cards? Because nowhere did I say that. There will be lots of very good cards that impact the format though.

And so we can expect that whatever is in these they will be pushed significantly more than a standard set. Add onto that the likely marketing push, and you have to understand the trepidation right?

I'm not one of the sky-is-falling guys but I do think it's very likely that a huge number of cards from these sets see lots of play.

Anyway, it's really pretty useless worrying about it, I just saw a stub of an argument floating through the thread that basically reads:

Not many of these cards will be playable so don't expect to see them everywhere, because how many cards from a standard set see play?

Which is not accurate. They're not standard sets.

Look at the space marine decks as an example. We know historically there is one extremely pushed card in almost every commander deck. the Dockside Extortionist or Fierce Guardianship or Tempt with Discovery or whatever, that becomes a critical card in the format. Then we know that there is almost always a busted commander somewhere in a release, though not usually in every deck.

So we can probably reasonably expect:
* 1-2 new format staples that a) don't fit the theme of the format, and b) are really desirable for some archetypes (Tempt with Discovery ) and possibly autoincludes in their colors (Dockside Extortionist).
* >=1 Chulane, Teller of Tales / Korvold, Fae-Cursed King powered general that again doesn't match the theme of the format.

Knowing my luck the busted commander will be something I really find interesting for once


I feel the need to qualify again that I am not doom and gloom or throwing a giant fit about the UB stuff, I just have mixed feelings and think the responses to doubters in this thread have been a bit callous. There's a whole lot of "well suck it up buttercup you're wrong to feel upset"

I think we're on the same page. I just found the first post you made to be along the lines of "UB is going to contain way more busted cards than the average set" where I was saying more that it would be the same amount you'd expect from other supplemental products.

Look, none of us like busted cards like Chulane. Whether it is from Standard like Golos or Kinnan or in a supplemental set, they frustrate us immensely. I don't think UB has a higher chance of introducing these.
And yes, there could be a Dockside Extortionist in these, and it will be weird to see Bilbo Baggins as a card that shows up in every game. I understand that some people opposed to UB will be annoyed that they will either not play with Bilbo or have to tarnish the flavour/personal principles in their decks by running Bilbo.

There is no good answer to this other than "You don't have to play with any cards you don't like". Self-imposed directives to build your decks perfectly... I get it that it is part of what you enjoy in deckbuilding, but you have to make a concession somewhere. Because, if the only way to make you happy is to not print any IP crossovers, then there is a huge portion of the fanbase that is losing out because of the way you want to play magic. This will never be acceptable. Same way Standard players hate cards made for Commander, and drafters hate cards made for constructed only... it is better to make more things for more people than to cater to one specific part of the community.

I also want to say that I am not saying "suck it up buttercup" - I am just saying that this is the new way our format will be played. You can choose not to play these cards, but I suspect that by the 3rd of 4th UB product we will be over the irritation with the flavour mismatches. If anything, it emphasizes that Commander is for fun.

[Crazy Monkey]

It's taken me some time to figure out my opinion on this, but in retrospect my two biggest hang-ups on TWD were the art style and the limited nature of the release. I personally really don't like the "screengrab from live action", or however that 'art' style is done. Maybe I'm a bit more focused on theme decks and game mechanics, but I'm not really offended by the IP mixing so long as it's not an actual 'canon' storyline crossover. Please do not mix the Warp with the Magic multiverse. Just...please do not.

They fixed my biggest complaint with how these will be released. I'm cautiously optimistic about my second hangup (art style), at least for 40k because the worse it could be is digital renders due to a lack of live action. For LoTR, while I loved the movies I don't really want some screencap of Gimli, but I guess I wouldn't be too off-put.

At first I thought that I was on board with this because I consume/am familiar with the lores of LoTR or 40K. That's not correct because I'm completely disinterested in TWD. So the worst that they can do for me is add some IP that I despise. As long as these aren't a source of massive game powercreeping then it works for me.

Regarding previous conversation in thread; game investment/investiture is a big limiting factor that was touched on. I personally have significant personal investment (cognitive/social investment drove financial investment) in Magic. I doubt that will change any time soon. I've considered branching out into other games, 40K specifically but reaching the point of playing well was frankly daunting. I stuck to reading the lore. These releases would let me mess around with that lore (also LoTR (The idea that LoTR is an 'also' shocked me for a second) ) in a game system that I enjoy and am familiar with. I'm completely on board with making some thematic decks around Spacemarines/Orks/Eldar. I think this is the target audience, and frankly I am in it and excited.

I think that it's important to notice that none of these cross pollinations are really reversible. The depth of capabilities in Magic card design/gameplay mean that none of these lores/game mechanics could really represent what Magic is beyond a simple cameo. The best that 40K could do is add a faction to play on the tabletop, but that could only be a single faction/plane. If not for the (frankly obvious) profit grab that full decks represent, I'd be perfectly happy with single, one-off cards for random bits of lore. A couple of characters perhaps, like was done for Transformers. That being said, full decks gives the opportunity to have the different bits on multiple cards. By (theoretically) splitting the space marine from the chainsword and bolter, there's more options for funny game states and deck ideas.

[pokken]

There is no good answer to this other than "You don't have to play with any cards you don't like".

I also want to say that I am not saying "suck it up buttercup" - I am just saying that this is the new way our format will be played. You can choose not to play these cards, but I suspect that by the 3rd of 4th UB product we will be over the irritation with the flavour mismatches. If anything, it emphasizes that Commander is for fun.

I mean, the RC could say "UB is not allowed in commander. Rule 0 if you want to do it." vs. "UB is allowed in commander. Rule 0 if you don't want to do it."

There's nothing saying it has to be the way people are assuming it will be. And it's not obvious that it's better either way at least not to me.

I think, on the balance, it'll most likely be a net good for the hobby? I'm really not sure. I do super hate the idea of format staples from other IP for some reason though.

[Dunharrow]

I mean, the RC could say "UB is not allowed in commander. Rule 0 if you want to do it." vs. "UB is allowed in commander. Rule 0 if you don't want to do it."

. We both know the RC won't ban a new product off the bat. This isn't silver bordered where things are nonsensical and don't work within the rules of Magic. If they didn't take this stance against TWD (which was much harder to obtain) then they won't take this stance against UB.

I think, on the balance, it'll most likely be a net good for the hobby? I'm really not sure. I do super hate the idea of format staples from other IP for some reason though.

But why? When I play a game of Magic, I am constantly doing things that flavor-wise make no sense. Elephants in boots. Enemies teaming up. It's funny when it happens. What is more important to the game as it text on the cards. If I can play against alts where One Punch Man is going for one-shot kills, then why can't I play against other IPs printed in that way?
I would say that Luminous Broodmoth is a format staple for white aggro decks or white sacrifice decks. It is so powerful. Do I care if it is the Ikoria art or the Godzilla art? Not in a million years.

Again, I get that it would be weird if in tournament play every deck was playing with Boromir in a Legacy tournament. That would be really jarring.

But at the casual tables, I just don't see it that way. Other than "I should not have to play format staples from other IPs", I don't see any argument against UB that holds any water.

And at the end of the day one thing will give:
- Either you won't play these format staples
- Or you won't care enough about them being from other IPs to affect your deckbuilding.

So - I can accept that some people are not going to like this and will never play cards from other IPs.
But, why is your enjoyment of Commander more important than my enjoyment of Commander?

[pokken]

We both know the RC won't ban a new product off the bat

Do we? There's really no precedent.

But why? When I play a game of Magic, I am constantly doing things that flavor-wise make no sense.

I think it's primarily the aesthetic but secondarily the setting. Infinitely blinking a Spell Queller doesn't make it any less a magic card. Each card feels like a part of the shared universe to me?

But also art-wise, futuristic stuff feels funky to me.

The main thing is personal; I don't want to put weird looking out of universe cards in a bunch of decks. There are certain types of cards that really appeal to me mechanically and I have a hard time not wanting to play them and sometimes in bunches.

I realize that I can just not play cards - I make that decision a lot in Ephara with cards that have obscenely priced foils (Fellwar Stone for ex).

[Krishnath]

But also art-wise, futuristic stuff feels funky to me.

Hello, I'd like to introduce you to Invasion block, where a handful of planeswalkers in power armor took on a technoorganic alien invasion force, complete with laser beams on both sides.

[pokken]

Hello, I'd like to introduce you to Invasion block, where a handful of planeswalkers in power armor

Di you have some card examples? nothing in there looks even remotely 40k to me.

Maybe...

(although goofy golems has kinda been part of the mythos of magic forever)

[Krishnath]

Hello, I'd like to introduce you to Invasion block, where a handful of planeswalkers in power armor

Di you have some card examples? nothing in there looks even remotely 40k to me.

Maybe...

(although goofy golems has kinda been part of the mythos of magic forever)

How about the literal Power Armor? Zap? Heat Ray? Ok, for heat ray you need to look up the Urza block version, it's literally a laser cannon shooting a goblin.

How about something technoorganic? Phyrexian Reaper? Phyrexian Slayer? Pretty much anything on the Phyrexian side when it came to creatures.

[pokken]

vs

Perhaps you can see some stylistic differences?

Of those I think the closest to matching the 40k aesthetic is:

But that's only because Tyranids have a certain...serious overlap with Magic

[Krishnath]

Just pointing out that both power armors and technoorganic aliens already exist in MTG and have for a long time.

[Dunharrow]

We both know the RC won't ban a new product off the bat

Do we? There's really no precedent.

People were clamouring for the RC to ban TWD Secret Lair.

But why? When I play a game of Magic, I am constantly doing things that flavor-wise make no sense.

I think it's primarily the aesthetic but secondarily the setting. Infinitely blinking a Spell Queller doesn't make it any less a magic card. Each card feels like a part of the shared universe to me?

But also art-wise, futuristic stuff feels funky to me.

I find it weird that The Fly can be played with Poseidon. I know they are references to real-world stories, and not actual characters from those stories. Is that nuance enough to make Galadriel feel wrong while Nissa of Shadowed Boughs is fine?

I get the futuristic stuff would be jarring. I guess. I really don't know Warhammer well enough to comment (although since UB was announced I started seeing a lot of Warhammer ads). But let's say it was Star Wars instead. Laser guns, lightsabers, space ships. It really feels out of sorts. But is it that different from spikeshot goblin, Kaya, Ghost Assassin and Skyship Weatherlight? The flavour behind it is of course different, but I don't know that it is that weird on the table. It would be weird if in the story Kaya picked up a lightsaber, but it is not weird that she phases her magical axes/knives through armor.

I don't know. When I am playing I don't tend to think much about in-universe flavour.


I also get it that you care about aesthetics when building your decks and that the aesthetics of futuristic things would be jarring to you and conflict with the rest of your deck.
If it is any consolation, I think they should have stuck to more magical IPs. I also think it will be weird to have spaceships and flying motorcycles or whatever.
And I do not think I am buying the Warhammer decks... unless there are a lot of cards I want.

[pokken]

People were clamouring for the RC to ban TWD Secret Lair.

Because of 1) inappropriate themes and 2) card availability primarily, vastly different scenarios where the distribution was the main thing people were kinked up about.

I also get it that you care about aesthetics when building your decks and that the aesthetics of futuristic things would be jarring to you and conflict with the rest of your deck.
If it is any consolation, I think they should have stuck to more magical IPs.

40k does have a lot of kinda magi-tech ideas that wouldn't be that far from Kaladesh, so I can see people arguing from that perspective. I just have no idea why 40k and not Warhammer Fantasy which would blend perfectly. I guess audience maybe, as Fantasy has kinda died since they destroyed the game

40k does also have lots of anti-grav and spaceships and hard edged robots and whatever though, which is really where the aesthetic breaks down for me. The art style is *very* different overall and there're tons of things that are jarring.

That said, I guess maybe it could be done well? There are groups in 40k that could mesh with Magic aesthetic. Stuff like Thousand Sons space marines, Tyranids, and even Orks aren't too bad (most of their 'technology' wouldn't be *that* out of place in Kaladesh).

I'm not super hardline about it or anything I just really could see a lot of areas for it to be hideously jarring if they do it badly.

This is the kinda thing that I really do not like. It's so boxy and futuristic and stuff. And I think they really tried hard on this one.

Imagine this guy on a magic card. Yuck Something about the eldar lines just read future future to me and feel way out place.

Maybe it isn't all that far off of some of the kaladesh stuff though? Maybe it won't be jarring. Who knows.

Somehow Kaladesh just reads as steam to me and not future times? Dunno.

[brainface]

It's so weird to me that they're doing warhammer 40k and not warhammer. Warhammer is pretty close to shadows over innistrad in terms of theme, it has 10 winds of magic that could probably be mapped to colors, it has skaven that could be relentless ratted. 40k has psychers and glassing planets from orbit.

There's "tech" in magic, sure... but it's all fantasy magic-tech and feels very different to me, than the techno-magic of 40k, personally.

Like... I think I could see a lot of warhammer cards in a magic deck before realizing they're warhammer, but one space marine or spaceship sort of sticks out.

Also... what, do you play planets instead of lands? I don't know! It's weird. Maybe it turns out good? But the theme and scale seem like such an ill fit, especially when there's a product right there from the same company that'd fit cleaner?

[Dunharrow]

People were clamouring for the RC to ban TWD Secret Lair.

Because of 1) inappropriate themes and 2) card availability primarily, vastly different scenarios where the distribution was the main thing people were kinked up about.

I am aware of those differences - just feel that those were better reasons that any reason to unequivocally ban UB cards. And the RC did nothing.

I also get it that you care about aesthetics when building your decks and that the aesthetics of futuristic things would be jarring to you and conflict with the rest of your deck.
If it is any consolation, I think they should have stuck to more magical IPs.

40k does have a lot of kinda magi-tech ideas that wouldn't be that far from Kaladesh, so I can see people arguing from that perspective. I just have no idea why 40k and not Warhammer Fantasy which would blend perfectly. I guess audience maybe, as Fantasy has kinda died since they destroyed the game

40k does also have lots of anti-grav and spaceships and hard edged robots and whatever though, which is really where the aesthetic breaks down for me. The art style is *very* different overall and there're tons of things that are jarring.

That said, I guess maybe it could be done well? There are groups in 40k that could mesh with Magic aesthetic. Stuff like Thousand Sons space marines, Tyranids, and even Orks aren't too bad (most of their 'technology' wouldn't be *that* out of place in Kaladesh).

I'm not super hardline about it or anything I just really could see a lot of areas for it to be hideously jarring if they do it badly.

This is the kinda thing that I really do not like. It's so boxy and futuristic and stuff. And I think they really tried hard on this one.

image.png

Imagine this guy on a magic card. Yuck Something about the eldar lines just read future future to me and feel way out place.

Maybe it isn't all that far off of some of the kaladesh stuff though? Maybe it won't be jarring. Who knows.

Somehow Kaladesh just reads as steam to me and not future times? Dunno.

How did you find the Anime-style planeswalkers? Or the stained-glass walkers? I don't know if they want to blend the art styles more with Magic's art style or if the Warhammer cards will be more true to the source artistic style.

Also - do no underestimate the way flavour shapes how we view something. Kaladesh - all the robots, ships, etc were running on magical aether. I know it is basically a magical version of electricity, or steam, but somehow that seems less jarring than if they were fitted with a gas combustion engine or solar-powered batteries.
The main reason why I don't care about the flavour of Warhammer 40K is that it has no bearing on the Magic's story. To me, it is more like Battlebond which barely had a story.

[pokken]

How did you find the Anime-style planeswalkers? Or the stained-glass walkers?

AFAIK they all have standard version cards right? There aren't any cards I can think of that only come in one weird art style. Well until TWD Which I still don't love but at least they aren't really very good.

That said, if I ever built an EDH humans deck I might find this guy to be kinda annoying to have out there.

Yuck.

[Sinis]

Oh oh, I love image comparisons!

[Hermes_]

Hello, I'd like to introduce you to Invasion block, where a handful of planeswalkers in power armor

Di you have some card examples? nothing in there looks even remotely 40k to me.

Maybe...

(although goofy golems has kinda been part of the mythos of magic forever)

Ironman

[Dunharrow]

How did you find the Anime-style planeswalkers? Or the stained-glass walkers?

AFAIK they all have standard version cards right? There aren't any cards I can think of that only come in one weird art style. Well until TWD Which I still don't love but at least they aren't really very good.

That said, if I ever built an EDH humans deck I might find this guy to be kinda annoying to have out there.

Yuck.

yes, they do have Standard versions
I just meant aesthetically, what do you think?

I find some of the Anime ones to mismatch Magic really badly. Like Gideon, Nissa and Vivien.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/japanese-alternate-art-planeswalkers-2019-04-22

TWD were too life-like in my opinion. It's weird.

I guess as long as the art feels consistent with Magic I am fine. But I would not love art that is too cartoony or too realistic.

[DirkGently]

I guess as long as the art feels consistent with Magic I am fine. But I would not love art that is too cartoony or too realistic.

Unfortunately I suspect that the art will closely match the franchises it's advertising, so for anything live action I'd bet that we'll have more of this photo-realism of living actors - which I find very distracting on magic cards. The more I think about it, the more I'm certain that's what we're getting tbh.

[pokken]

just meant aesthetically, what do you think?

I love the stained glass, hate the anime stuff. Anime - i've been scarred from years and years of anime alters and playmats, anything with that aesthetic turns me off instantly in a magic environment.

Which is odd given that I like quite a lot of anime, I just don't think the aesthetics go very well together at all.

more of this photo-realism of living actors

:puke emoji:

[DirkGently]

:puke emoji:

lol but we HAVE a puke emoji.