Non blue or green commanders with a nonclunky ramp strategy

[pokken]

I need to put one more deck together. I have two non cedh decks and usually want to have3 or 4.

What I'm looking for is my first long term deck with neiter blue nor green. What always keeps me off these decks is the that ramping feels awkward and not really very functional. Like I slapped a bunch of Mana rocks in there because your kinda have to.

I kinda short-circuited this problem I have with the ramp needing to be interesting with my golos decks where golos provided all the ramp. But that got very old.

So looking for your ideas.

Some things I've considered but am unsure of:
Plains.dec (ephara kinda fills this niche)
Serra's sanctum something
Shops (artifact theme)
Swamp.dec
Mana doublers (kinda ew on this but could be convinced)
Equipment is ramp (feast and famine, animist, dowsing dagger, etc)
Altars.dec (but unsure I could make that work, using stuff like phyrexian altar for Mana)

This is just my weird quirk I have to work around, so appreciate your ideas

[weltkrieg]

How about combat ramp (equipment ramp)? Aurelia, the Warleader + Sword of the Animist is 2 lands every turn and a good chunk of commander damage to boot. If you feel white isn't up your alley with all the equipment tutors, you could try a mono red strategy with Godo, Bandit Warlord at the helm. He can immediately find you the equipment and will give you the extra combat, too. Of course, sword of feast and famine does a similar ramp strategy (equipment doubler in this case). You could even run Mask of Memory for card draw.

Boros/mono red/mono white usually needs to rely on artifacts for a lot of things, but one trick you can run in any color (and useful in these colors since they can tutor up the artifacts more easily than green) is Rings of Brighthearth and fetchlands

[WizardMN]

My two favorites that I have had over the years is the Swamp.dec and the mana doublers you mentioned. Every so often I think of going back to the mono-B deck. The mana doublers was either mono-U or mono-R depending on what I was feeling. I was going to make a UR one once and never got around to it (it didn't seem as fun when that was the goal).

I still think your point about making sure you hit land drops is more important in some cases than actual ramping. Queen Marchesa was built with this in mind where I just have more draw effects to get lands and she works out pretty well with Solemn and Phyrexian Altar as the only forms of Ramp (and Altar is just there as a free sac outlet).

In one deck I had, I included Thawing Glaciers, Rings of Brighthearth, and Deserted Temple which was really fun when things got off the ground. I think it was my mono-R deck mentioned above. I sort of liked it as Red because red did a lot more with artifacts and using Solemn and Burnished Hart with other cards that copied artifacts was fun,

This is a little more specific, but you could look into Kykar? He is his own ramp and there might be a way to build him to fit into what you want. My and MeowZeDung's lists (or, at least, our philosophies) are quite a bit different and Kykar can be built in a lot of different ways.

Beyond that though, I am not sure. I guess I haven't done a lot of thinking regarding how much the absence of ramp means. Sygg and Marchesa have very little ramp as it is (and I only put in some Moxen in Sygg because you suggested it; I am not still not sure I like Mox Diamond )

But I sort of feel where you are coming from. I used to include Solemn and Hart in basically everything and call it a day but I found them getting old. I think I have now cut them from pretty much every deck. But there have been a couple decks that I took apart because I couldn't make them resilient enough for the long game or be able to keep up with the rest of the table and the ramp issues definitely played into that.

[Mookie]

Do you want a dedicated ramp deck, or just a deck where mana rocks don't feel clunky? Those aren't quite the same thing - it's possible to have a deck with ramp in it without that necessarily being a ramp deck. For the purposes of this response, I'll assume you're asking about a dedicated ramp deck that intends to consistently get to big piles of mana.

I'd say that if I were making a ramp deck, I'd be looking for either mana production or a mana sink in the command zone. One of the biggest issues with ramp decks is drawing either too much ramp and not enough payoff, or too much expensive stuff and not enough ramp - you really want to have a solution to one of the halves of the equation in the command zone. And since you're not running green, your commander will probably be a mana sink. Could be either an activated ability or just some way to generate card advantage (and thus keep your hand full of things to spend mana on). That's an incredibly open-ended criteria though.

I'd probably lean towards a monoblack commander, most likely Gonti, Lord of Luxury. Black has a lot of options for mana doublers, plus access to plenty of card advantage and big X spells to serve as finishers. Big Black isn't necessarily the most exciting strategy though - Cabal Coffers → Torment of Hailfire is the sort of thing that tends to get old. Hence my suggestion of Gonti, to allow for a more dynamic strategy. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief, Demonlord Belzenlok, Geth, Lord of the Vault, and Erebos, God of the Dead are other options.

If you're up for colorless, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and Kozilek, the Great Distortion are two more excellent options - do a ton of ramping, then refill your hand by casting your general. Again, a relatively linear but effective strategy.

I'd lean away from decks built around a specific card for ramping (ex: Sword of the Animist, Revel in Riches) - if you don't draw that card or it gets destroyed, your ramp strategy is going to fall apart.

[cheonice]

I'd probably lean towards a monoblack commander, most likely Gonti, Lord of Luxury. Black has a lot of options for mana doublers, plus access to plenty of card advantage and big X spells to serve as finishers. Big Black isn't necessarily the most exciting strategy though - Cabal Coffers → Torment of Hailfire is the sort of thing that tends to get old. Hence my suggestion of Gonti, to allow for a more dynamic strategy. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief, Demonlord Belzenlok, Geth, Lord of the Vault, and Erebos, God of the Dead are other options.

I second this. Gonti, Lord of Luxury is one of my signature decks. Gonti fills the holes monoblack typically has by targeting the blue player (for counterspells), the Selesnya colours (for artifact/enchantment removal), or the big bad mana woman (for finishers). One time I managed to cast three (!!!) Torment of Hailfires from three players in a row. Gonti is resilient, adaptive, and fun to play. He does not suffer from the issues other "stealing" deck types have, e. g. stealing ALL the permanents and making everyone miserable. Yeah, I really like that dude^^
Regarding the ramp I use: Of course there are some artifacts, but reanimating Solemn Simulacrum feels really on-flavour. Liliana of the Dark Realms, Cabal Coffers, Cabal Stronghold, and Crypt Ghast are some of the stars of black ramp: hard to interact (lands) or easily recurred (creatures).

For reference, here is my decklist:

SPOILER

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Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

//Commander

1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury

//Creatures

1 Blood Artist

1 Bloodgift Demon

1 Burnished Hart

1 Chainer, Dementia Master

1 Crypt Ghast

1 Demon of Dark Schemes

1 Disciple of Bolas

1 Grave Titan

1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

1 Grim Haruspex

1 Merciless Executioner

1 Meteor Golem

1 Midnight Reaper

1 Nether Traitor

1 Pawn of Ulamog

1 Phyrexian Delver

1 Plaguecrafter

1 Reaper from the Abyss

1 Reassembling Skeleton

1 Sadistic Hypnotist

1 Sepulchral Primordial

1 Shriekmaw

1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier

1 Solemn Simulacrum

1 Viscera Seer

1 Yahenni, Undying Partisan

1 Zulaport Cutthroat

//Spells

1 Ashnod's Altar

1 Attrition

1 Beacon of Unrest

1 Caged Sun

1 Corpse Dance

1 Decree of Pain

1 Deliver Unto Evil

1 Demonic Tutor

1 Diabolic Revelation

1 Dictate of Erebos

1 Dreadhorde Invasion

1 Finale of Eternity

1 Grave Pact

1 Hero's Downfall

1 Jar of Eyeballs

1 Jet Medallion

1 Liliana of the Dark Realms

1 Mimic Vat

1 Mutilate

1 Necropotence

1 Nim Deathmantle

1 Oblivion Stone

1 Oversold Cemetery

1 Phyrexian Arena

1 Phyrexian Reclamation

1 Profane Command

1 Promise of Power

1 Reanimate

1 Skullclamp

1 Sol Ring

1 Spawning Pit

1 Torment of Hailfire

1 Wayfarer's Bauble

1 Worn Powerstone

//Lands

1 Blighted Fen

1 Bojuka Bog

1 Cabal Coffers

1 Cabal Stronghold

1 High Market

1 Myriad Landscape

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Reliquary Tower

26 Swamp

1 Terrain Generator

1 Thespian's Stage

1 Vesuva

1 Westvale Abbey // Ormendahl, Profane Prince

Approximate Total Cost:

[Myllior]

I kinda short-circuited this problem I have with the ramp needing to be interesting with my golos decks where golos provided all the ramp. But that got very old.

Hmm, I thought of Neheb, the Eternal when going through your post, as having the ramp in the command zone can definitely do a lot to reduce the clunkiness, but I feel like you might run into the same issue you described with Golos. Not to mention that he's essentially the mono-red equivalent of Cabal Coffers and Torment of Hailfire, making him a kill-on-sight commander, which again could get old.

Maybe Neheb's third incarnation - Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion - could be a better option in mono-red? He produces mana via rummaging, leading him to be a good candidate for a stormy playstyle involving extra combat spells and Past in Flames, Underworld Breach and other, similar effects. Sort of like a mono-red Narset, Enlightened Master I guess; I know that's probably not a desirable comparison, but at least Neheb shouldn't draw the same ire as Narset, since he doesn't cheat on mana costs and is mono-coloured.

[MeowZeDung]

+1 for all the mono black praise. My wife's Drana, Liberator of Malakir, harvesting goodies from my old Gonti deck, gets big mana EVERY game. Nykthos, Urborg + Coffers, Jet Medallion, Bontu's Monument, Caged Sun, Nirkana Revenant, Crypt Ghast, Sword of the Animist, and so on.

You know white's goodies better than I do.

Mono red rituals plus copy effects can be sweet.

I think Walking Atlas, Wayfarer's Bauble, and Burnished Hart are underrated. Especially if you have untap shenanigans or artifact recursion.

[Rumpy5897]

Heh, I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but once again I'm gonna recommend Daxos. The fact Daxos is a mana sink means any amount of generated mana can be turned into scaling bodies, which in turn incentivises looking for extra mana in any way possible. Some of the ways are conventional, there are a few high-impact rocks, a lot of reliance on huge mana lands (I'm pretty sure I've spent more Demonic Tutors on Serra's Sanctum and Cabal Coffers than anything else), and teeny bits of land ramp. Some are more creative - you can set back the table with Rule of Law and break symmetry to a good extent with the mana sink, you can churn life into Bolas Rock to get extra "mana" that way, my friendly branch supports Song of the Worldsoul as a ridiculous high-end bomb that attaches 1WB of value to every single cast spell. Plus hey, if I could get you hooked on Daxos then I'd have another conversation partner for talking shop

Observe a perfectly realistic turn six board state:

[darrenhabib]

If you have to do artifacts outside of blue then the best options I can think of are Daretti, Scrap Savant or as mookie has pointed out already Kozilek, the Great Distortion or Kozilek, Butcher of Truth.
They all give purpose to artifact ramp in an actual meaningful way.

I was also going to recommend either of the Nehebs (Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion, Neheb, the Eternal) as mentioned by Myllior, because they are mana from the command zone.

[DirkGently]

Having played both Gonti and Geth, Lord of the Vault, they've both got plusses and minuses, but geth is certainly the more ramp-focused commander. Gonti enjoys some ramp and can get benefits from it for sure, but can he effortlessly abuse 80+ mana per turn? Not so much. Geth is basically lands, a ton of ramp, and a little interaction. Piece of cake.

Gonti I think does create better experiences for your opponents. Geth can really monopolize the clock since you need to keep constantly checking graves, and trying to play it optimally - or even close - once you get coffers + doubling cube + crypt ghast + god knows what else is impossible. Gonti is sort of a pain to get really going, though, since he needs a lot more support, and gets way more wrecked by mass artifact removal since it generally blows up your ramp AND your recursion.

[not-a-cube]

Full support of the swamp.dec choice, I'm running a Chainer, Dementia Master deck and it has instilled a love for mono colored decks in me I didn't think I had.


The deck has most of the big mana pieces: Cabal Coffers, Extraplanar Lens+ Snow-Covered Swamp, Nirkana Revenant, Crypt Ghast, Liliana of the Dark Realms, etc...

Chainer really sucks up all the mana you can make by looping value creatures like Solemn Simulacrum or fun cards like Gonti, Lord of Luxury. Playing the creatures from your opponents graveyards also makes your games more varied.

[pokken]

Do you want a dedicated ramp deck, or just a deck where mana rocks don't feel clunky? Those aren't quite the same thing

I realize I didn't explain this very well. I have a bit of a quirk that the 'mana engine' of a deck, for lack of a better word, needs to be very tuned for me to enjoy it. Decks that miss land drops are huge on my craplist, and decks that have ramp as an afterthought that doesn't contribute meaningfully don't work for me.

It's not that I like ramp decks so much as I like the ramp to really fit well with the deck vs. just jamming 8 x 2 mana rocks to accelerate because we need to accelerate a little.

If I'm forced to be running a lot of artifact ramp I like it to make tokens or have some synergy with the commander or something.

I'm also fine with not ramping much as long as there's a smooth mana engine that hits its needs on time.

Ultimately I think this quirk is what keeps me from enjoying CEDH as much as I could, the decks are loaded with basically rituals or mana dorks and it all winds up being pretty shallow

In one deck I had, I included Thawing Glaciers, Rings of Brighthearth, and Deserted Temple which was really fun when things got off the ground. I think it was my mono-R deck mentioned above. I sort of liked it as Red because red did a lot more with artifacts and using Solemn and Burnished Hart with other cards that copied artifacts was fun,

This is an angle that sounds really fun, I did that glaciers stuff in mono green and it was super fun (for me). Trickier outside of blue but could be fun with coffers. But artifacts in red also fun. I do *love* Thawing Glaciers and played it in all 5 of my golos decks

Maybe Neheb's third incarnation - Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion - could be a better option in mono-red?

I was brewing this guy for quite a while as a replacement for my mono red Golos deck. I think it's really close and something I will go back and think about again. He looks pretty fun design-wise to me.

Mono black swamps

My issue with this is I can't find a commander that speaks to me. Gonti and Geth both are so reliant on stealing stuff from people it's boring. Chainer feels not bad but very vulnerable.

Heh, I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but once again I'm gonna recommend Daxos.

I do like Daxos and it seems like a good place for a lot of things I like (sanctum, coffers, some good artifacts). Something about his design throws me off a little still. I will definitely keep it in mind.

[Guardman]

Maybe Neheb's third incarnation - Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion - could be a better option in mono-red?

I was brewing this guy for quite a while as a replacement for my mono red Golos deck. I think it's really close and something I will go back and think about again. He looks pretty fun design-wise to me.

Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion is a really fun commander. I actually played him for a little bit until I got tired of shifting my cards among so many decks and decided to consolidate. His ramp can be a little awkward at times, so I'm not sure if that will be a deal breaker.

A different mono-red commander that you may enjoy more is Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge. I haven't played with him yet, but he seems like he would tick off a lot of your boxes. He creates treasure tokens, rewards you for playing artifact ramp, and can come down early.

[pokken]

A different mono-red commander that you may enjoy more is Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge. I haven't played with him yet, but he seems like he would tick off a lot of your boxes. He creates treasure tokens, rewards you for playing artifact ramp, and can come down early.

I did see him but I admit I just glossed over his text as a commander lol. It's very interesting. I wonder how you would kill enough creatures to make that work, maybe Phyrexian Altar and Genesis Chamber type stuff?

edit:

• reckless fireweaver
• ghirapur aether grid
• saheeli's directive
• indomitable creativity
• quicksmith genius
• retrofitter foundry
• inspiring statuary
• trading post
• trash for treasure
• goblin welder
• goblin engineer
• slobad, goblin tinkerer
• hellkite tyrant
• pia and kiran nalaar
• pia nalaar

Yeah I think there is a deck there.

[Guardman]

A different mono-red commander that you may enjoy more is Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge. I haven't played with him yet, but he seems like he would tick off a lot of your boxes. He creates treasure tokens, rewards you for playing artifact ramp, and can come down early.

I did see him but I admit I just glossed over his text as a commander lol. It's very interesting. I wonder how you would kill enough creatures to make that work, maybe Phyrexian Altar and Genesis Chamber type stuff?

I don't really enjoy the Altar type playstyle so I am probably the wrong person to ask, but it could work.

But I also don't really think he is meant to combo, since he only works at the end of your turn and only triggers when non-token creatures dies. Instead I think he is meant to play more as a source of constant ramp where a creature or two dies on each of your turns and you get a few treasures. I personally would play him with a mix of removal and creatures that sacrifice themselves like Generator Servant and Goblin Cratermaker since Gadrak only triggers off of non-token creatures dying. I would then probably throw in some artifact/treasure payoffs like Karn, Scion of Urza, Summoning Station, and Treasure Map // Treasure Cove, some cheap hate artifacts like Relic of Progenitus and Torpor Orb, and finish it off with a light dragon theme with Glorybringer (who doubles as removal), Haven of the Spirit Dragon, and maybe a Sarkhan or two.

[pokken]

But I also don't really think he is meant to combo, since he only works at the end of your turn and only triggers when non-token creatures dies. Instead I think he is meant to play more as a source of constant ramp where a creature or two dies on each of your turns and you get a few treasures

So relying on the kindness of strangers to provide your ramp feels sketchy to me. And mono red struggles to kill some creatures.

Consider engines like Retrofitter Foundry.

Foundry if you grow a thopter from a baby to a 4/4 golem for 9 mana, you get a 2 mana discount at the end step which is kinda cool, and two death triggers for other stuff and 3 ETB triggers for purphoros (hypothetically), or like 6 damage from Terror of the Peaks.

Summoning Station is an awesome idea for sure.

AS far as altars go I am thinking more in terms of how Gadrak enables them to work as serious ramp as opposed to just combo pieces. Phyrexian Altar basically gets its mana doubled if you use critters during your turn, and Ashnod's Altar makes up to 2R per creature which is huge.

You need a lot of ways to sink mana at instant speed to make it work well.

[Dunharrow]

Gadrak sounds super fun. Basically a mix of Daretti artifacts, Feldon reanimator and 'aristocrats'. I like that it makes mana rocks not useless.

Are you okay with only getting the mana the next turn?

You can go combo and at your endstep Comet Storm [/card] the table, or, you can just have some mana sinks like Staff of Domination...
Also anything that you can use to untap artifacts would be good so you can get more use out of Trading Post and similar effects.

What about Ghirapur Aether Grid ?

[MeowZeDung]

I'm currently building budget Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge and I'd be very interested to see other builds. I think gadrak is sweet, and there's plenty of budget and budgetless routes to take imo.

[Guardman]

So relying on the kindness of strangers to provide your ramp feels sketchy to me. And mono red struggles to kill some creatures.

Mono-red is actually better than it first appears at killing larger toughness creatures. You just have to play some weirder removal such as Ugin, the Ineffable, Meteor Golem, and Cinder Cloud. Expensive, but they make great use of ramp, especially Cinder Cloud. Instant speed and nobody expects it.

Also red does have a bunch of good sac creatures to get treasures from and lots of creatures that don't mind dying.

Retrofitter Foundry is a card I forgot about, but seems like it could be a good mana sink.

I understand what you are talking about with the alters now. Whenever I see alters my mind always go to some sort of combo. But if you mean more of a straight mana making, they should work just fine.

[pokken]

Gadrak sounds super fun. Basically a mix of Daretti artifacts, Feldon reanimator and 'aristocrats'. I like that it makes mana rocks not useless.

Are you okay with only getting the mana the next turn?

You can go combo and at your endstep Comet Storm [/card] the table, or, you can just have some mana sinks like Staff of Domination...
Also anything that you can use to untap artifacts would be good so you can get more use out of Trading Post and similar effects.

What about Ghirapur Aether Grid ?

Aether grid is definitely an allstar.

I think you'd want a lot of instants, and definitely Inspiring Statuary

Cards like Commune with Lava and Electrodominance seem great.

It's a bummer that Improvise doesn't work quite like Convoke but it's still pretty good to be able to reuse your treasures essentially. Also treasures tap to sac so some awkwardness there.

Fueling Pyrohemia seems pretty good too.

Mono-red is actually better than it first appears at killing larger toughness creatures. You just have to play some weirder removal such as Ugin, the Ineffable, Meteor Golem, and Cinder Cloud. Expensive, but they make great use of ramp, especially Cinder Cloud. Instant speed and nobody expects it.

Also red does have a bunch of good sac creatures to get treasures from and lots of creatures that don't mind dying.

Retrofitter Foundry is a card I forgot about, but seems like it could be a good mana sink.

I understand what you are talking about with the alters now. Whenever I see alters my mind always go to some sort of combo. But if you mean more of a straight mana making, they should work just fine.

Yeah it's not bad. I think Spine of Ish Sah and Goblin Welder type stuff could do a lot of work.

Sac'ing creatures is the ideal thing I think. Stuff like Siege-Gang Commander and Goblin Welder and Goblin Cratermaker are good, but sac'ing *artifact creatures* is where the real sauce is. Hangarback Walker and Myr Battlesphere. Wurmcoil Engine could put in a lot of work too.

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker seems like it'd work pretty well since you sac the token and can stack it above Gadrak's trigger.

I'll probably pick up a foil and start brewing



I can't read. Non-token. Wowwwwww boring.

[Guardman]

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker seems like it'd work pretty well since you sac the token and can stack it above Gadrak's trigger.

Actually Kiki-Jiki doesn't work with Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge since Gadrak only triggers off of nontoken creatures. If not Feldon of the Third Path would be an auto-include in the deck.

[pokken]

Criminy. Nontoken basically kills my interest. I did not see that rider. How lame

Very few ways to create shenanigans that way.

[MeowZeDung]

Criminy. Nontoken basically kills my interest. I did not see that rider. How lame

Very few ways to create shenanigans that way.

Oh, I disagree. We'll see. Might turn out my list ends up being garbage and I'm just hopelessly optimistic about it.

[pokken]

Oh, I disagree. We'll see. Might turn out my list ends up being garbage and I'm just hopelessly optimistic about it.

So without being able to make tokens you are pretty much down to needing to kill actual creatures, and red does not have that many creatures you turn into engines that way - basically squee-esque things and phoenixes.

I think you could build a cool deck that way, but I would never want to build assuming other people will have creatures for me to kill because I run into a ton of low creature decks and you don't want a non-game because you're reliant on them.

It's more that it doesn't do what I was after which is shops.dec with Hangarback Walker and thopter bros and stuff.

Maybe I'll revisit Karlov Proclamation of Rebirth

[ISBPathfinder]

I feel like Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle checkboxes a hell of a lot of the maybe considerations you laid out. I am not sure if the combo tastic nature of the commander / deck is a pro or a con for you. It does check a heck of a lot of those boxes you put out though. If it didn't go infinite so easily I would probably still be playing him myself.

It does potentially hit all of:

• Plains.dec (ephara kinda fills this niche)
• Shops (artifact theme)
• Equipment is ramp (feast and famine, animist, dowsing dagger, etc)
• Altars.dec (but unsure I could make that work, using stuff like phyrexian altar for Mana)

He is definitely among the more competitive mono white commanders though. The low curve nature of the deck is also really sweet and makes for a unique feeling deck. If it didn't accidentally combo so hard I have little doubt that I would still be playing it myself.