Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[Hermes_]

from before tomorrow streams

[Avacyn Believer]

I hope the Settlement tokens will say "This settlement needs your help!"

[Dunadain]

hard not to compare to Estrid, the Masked.

Estrid has much better colors and is a mana cheaper, but Preston converts a land and untaps it every turn, rather than ping-ponging between the two. Also don't have to worry about defending him.

[heridfel]

Yeah, if Bethesda had a sense of humor, I think they would be more likely to acknowledge how poor that "radiant quest" idea was implemented and joke about it.

Flavor-wise, it is a mess. The only reason I see him being those three colors is "mana fixing is green and soldiers make us think of Boris, so add red and white". If they had wanted to keep a Minuteman theme of always ready, they could have done something with vigilance and remained mono-white. Preston being the one to establish settlements doesn't match up with the story.

Unfortunately, land protection is so niche that something thematic would probably be underpowered and we can't have "face" cards be underpowered, so we are stuck with this.

[DirkGently]

He looks terrible to me. Wait 7 turns and he builds a Bear Umbra? Yeah ok pass.

I didn't notice it during spoilers, but even if you don't have any face-down creatures, Showstopping Surprise is an instant speed Chandra's Ignition.

Obviously, for many decks the fact that ignition also deals damage to opponents is a big deal, but still.

Yeah that one kinda caught me off-guard too. Solid option. I'd trade face damage for instant speed all day long.

[Dunadain]

This tends to be a recurring blind spot in my card evaluation, I read that it has some synergy that I'm not particularly interested and I immediately dismiss the entire card out of hand.

[Hermes_]

I'm guessing it's the secondary commander for the dogmeat deck

[Mookie]

Fallout is on my gaming backlog - I somehow haven't played any of the games, although I do own a few. Maybe this set will inspire me to finally start them? Either way, I'll keep an eye on the set for any standout cards, but I'm not particularly excited by it.

[Dunadain]

Friend of mine told me I had to play Fallout:New Vegas. I got pretty far but then petered out.

I actually think that was the game that made me realize that I fundamentally don't like open world games. There was nothing wrong with the game, but I was constantly worrying that i was either going through the game too quickly or too slowly. On the flip side, I do appreciate a little bit or room for exploration, guide rails, not rail roads is kind of my attitude. Which probably explains why I love Metroidvanias so much.

Of course, in modern day's everything-is-an-open-world-game-with-survival-elements hellscape, that general dislike has turned more to genuine resentment, but that's not exactly Fallout's fault.

[heridfel]

He looks terrible to me. Wait 7 turns and he builds a Bear Umbra? Yeah ok pass.

I think the idea is that you put him in an aura deck so all your creatures are getting untapped as well, giving him/them pseudo-vigilance, and so on. It's all enchanted permanents, not just lands.

The mana fixing aspect of the Settlement auras is sort of mediocre since you needed three colors to play him, but it does make it easier to run spells like Archdruid's Charm which are particularly needy for a particular color.

I agree that he isn't good by himself and that there are probably better commanders for aura-focused decks, but he isn't just a slow three-color Bear Umbra.

[DirkGently]

@heridfel Fixing is plentiful and vigilance is a low-value keyword. Getting a decent tap ability is something, but tap-ability-aura-tribal sounds like a mess, and Samut, Voice of Dissent is probably better for that role anyway (while still being mediocre). My opinion is unchanged.

I've noticed wotc putting a lot of attack triggers on commanders that probably shouldn't be attacking - like a 4/4 for 5 with no relevant combat abilities. Wonder if that's an intentional design decision.

[Avacyn Believer]

I've noticed wotc putting a lot of attack triggers on commanders that probably shouldn't be attacking - like a 4/4 for 5 with no relevant combat abilities. Wonder if that's an intentional design decision.

Wild guess, it could have something to do with encouraging newer players to attack? That way precon games feel more interactive rather than people building up massive board states and getting into grindy stalemates.

[TheGildedGoose]

Fallout is on my gaming backlog - I somehow haven't played any of the games, although I do own a few. Maybe this set will inspire me to finally start them? Either way, I'll keep an eye on the set for any standout cards, but I'm not particularly excited by it.

What's your tolerance for old games? What's your tolerance for old games?

The first Fallout is free on Amazon Prime, but be warned that it's from 1997 and a screenshot looks like this:



That may even be full resolution but I'm too lazy to check.

I have a lot of love for the Fallout series, despite what's happened to it over the years. I'm genuinely excited for the Amazon show, even though I am hype-averse.

Flavor-wise, it is a mess.

Caesar and House have the same color identity. Flavortown this isn't.

New card sucks. Whatever.

[Guardman]

I've noticed wotc putting a lot of attack triggers on commanders that probably shouldn't be attacking - like a 4/4 for 5 with no relevant combat abilities. Wonder if that's an intentional design decision.

Wild guess, it could have something to do with encouraging newer players to attack? That way precon games feel more interactive rather than people building up massive board states and getting into grindy stalemates.

Let's all remember Ruhan of the Fomori was designed to help new commander players get used to attacking.

Personally, Preston Garvey, Minuteman seems boring and superfluous. He is mana fixing that already needs three colors and five mana to cast and mana ramp with extra steps. There is a small part of me wondering if he was made safe because of his "potential", but that seems a little weird since Bear Umbra does it better.

[Mookie]

@heridfel Fixing is plentiful and vigilance is a low-value keyword. Getting a decent tap ability is something, but tap-ability-aura-tribal sounds like a mess, and Samut, Voice of Dissent is probably better for that role anyway (while still being mediocre). My opinion is unchanged.

Running auras to untap your creatures in place of Magewright's Stone / Thousand-Year Elixir does sound mildly interesting. I think Samut will be superior in most situations, but I'll need to do some analysis.

Most of the time, you want to stack multiple untaps on a single creature with a really good tap ability, like Krenko, Mob Boss or Humble Defector. Untap abilities generally cost the same regardless of what you're untapping, so it's natural to target whatever is your best tap ability. This means Samut generally favors playing only one or two premium tap creatures to the board.

If you're using Preston to untap creatures, then you only get one untap per creature, which means you can't use the best one over and over. However, he can untap more total creatures if you have an easy source of auras, and he works with Aggravated Assault and other sources of additional combats. This generally encourages playing lots of creatures with tap abilities, which is certainly interesting. Still seems like a janky deck, but there might be something there. I do think it's dependent on there being some strong aura support cards in the precon though - getting blown out by a board wipe or spot removal on your enchanted creatures seems like a significant concern. Role tokens help, at least - Gylwain, Casting Director seems good here, for example.

I've noticed wotc putting a lot of attack triggers on commanders that probably shouldn't be attacking - like a 4/4 for 5 with no relevant combat abilities. Wonder if that's an intentional design decision.

I assume the attack triggers are an intentional decision to encourage more aggression and proactive play. EDH games can easily end up with complicated boardstates that discourage attacking, but I think making combat a relevant part of the game is generally healthy. Combat dependency also generally makes things more interactive - your opponents can remove the creature before it attacks, and you can grant it haste or otherwise run protection. Plus there's all the actual combat math and evasion / blocking. I think that generally makes for more interesting gameplay than something like an ETB or upkeep trigger.

@TheGildedGoose - I own 3 and New Vegas. I just haven't started them yet. I do have concerns about their graphics being dated at this point, but mods exist.

[TheGildedGoose]

@TheGildedGoose - I own 3 and New Vegas. I just haven't started them yet. I do have concerns about their graphics being dated at this point, but mods exist.

I won't really get into it, but 3 not only has one of the most disappointing endings of any game in that era, it also doesn't "get" Fallout. As someone who played the first two as a kid, it felt like it aped Fallout aesthetics without understanding the essence of the originals.

New Vegas is the more interesting game, developed by some of the same people who worked on the originals. With mods for bug fixes, graphical overhauls, and of course, your friend Fred Durst, New Vegas is a special game.

Fun fact: Fallout 2 has a parody of Magic.

[Hermes_]

@TheGildedGoose - I own 3 and New Vegas. I just haven't started them yet. I do have concerns about their graphics being dated at this point, but mods exist.

I won't really get into it, but 3 not only has one of the most disappointing endings of any game in that era, it also doesn't "get" Fallout. As someone who played the first two as a kid, it felt like it aped Fallout aesthetics without understanding the essence of the originals.
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*hugs you* please tell me how fallout 3 hurt you also the support group on reddit you should join lol

[CommanderMaster999]

just as a reminder the face cards for the fallout decks are Dogmeat, Ever Loyal, Dr. Madison Li, Caesar, Legion's Emperor and The Wise Mothman

leaked image of the outlaw commander decks

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I can't believe they are actually doing a theft matters precon that's arguable the second most salty theme for its opponents (yes I'm aware the pirates precon from ixalan 2 did it as it's sub-theme)

If it has decent cards/reprints I might resurrect my kenrith copy cat/theft deck (aka 5-color "what you can do I can do better.")

[MAGUSZANIN]

House being a Mardu Dicerolling Commander really shows the designers don't understand him as a character. He really should be a Dimir Artifact Commander, maybe a lord, or maybe a Coastal Piracy in the command zone. Something like that.

He is very much anti chance as a character, with plans within plans and multiple contingency options whenever possible. The big reason why he runs the Strip is because it's a money mill. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think Preston is fine but nothing amazing. There is a decent amount of value to that untaps ability besides just vigilance. With extra combats, some Auras that give your creatures tap abilities, and enchantment based ramp, you can do work with this.

Speaking as an Estrid player for almost a decade, that attack trigger is worth waaaay more than it first appears. I agree that between blue being better at supporting enchantments than Red and Estrid having way more words on her, she is probably the better commander. But being worse than one of the best enchantress commanders ever is probably a good thing overall. And Preston both tagging a land and also getting the untap seems worth jumping through a bit of hoops to make sure he can attack.

Also, is it just me, or is this set very Boros focused? Red/White/Blue Energy, Red/White/Green Enchantments/Combats, and Red/White/Black Tokens? That is 3 out of 4 precons based in Boros.

[Avacyn Believer]

leaked image of the outlaw commander decks

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remember when only Planeswalkers were jumping from plane to plane

[duducrash]

I see they were not in their creative period when choosing the deck themes

[Dunadain]

How have the new Surveil Lands been treating everyone?


I know it's only been like a week since they became legal, but as someone that spoke very highly of them during spoiler season, I feel like I still underestimated them.

Being able to cast Consider every game on turn 1 as long as your hand has a fetch land in it is wild. Turn 1 is always a bit awkward in commander, you want to get the most out of every turn, but ensuring you have a good t1 play generally comes at the cost of late game power (no one wants to draw a Birds of Paradise on turn 6) the usual solution is to just use that as your tap-land turn, I've been using that turn to fetch a triome in pretty much all my 3+ color decks ever since the triomes were printed, but now I believe grabbing a surveil land t1 is the best option in terms of maximizing your turn 1 at the lowest deck-building cost possible.

And, of course, even outside of t1, if you ever go for an end-of-turn fetch, you can give yourself a little more gas by grabbing a surveil land, and they get even better if you have graveyard synergies. But I already identified those things, the strength of T1 surveil land is what caught me by surprise.

Now, admittedly, the two decks I've been working on since MKM are a Golgari lands deck with relatively few early game plays and a Jeskai voltron deck with a sinfully low land count, so the surveil lands are specifically strong in the decks I'm currently working on, but I still think these things are power houses.

Earlier I said that they were obviously between triomes and temples in terms of powerlevel and I thought they were pretty darn close to triomes. Now I honestly believe there even better than triomes.

So yeah, no real point to this, I've just been blown away by them and was wondering what other people's experience have been. Have you gotten a chance to play around with them yet? Have they been as good as I've been making them out to be? Are you still looking to get your copies? Do you just refuse to play fetches to avoid shuffling (a stance I heartily respect)?

[TheGildedGoose]

please tell me how fallout 3 hurt you

[Avacyn Believer]

Now, admittedly, the two decks I've been working on since MKM are a Golgari lands deck with relatively few early game plays and a Jeskai voltron deck with a sinfully low land count, so the surveil lands are specifically strong in the decks I'm currently working on, but I still think these things are power houses.

Earlier I said that they were obviously between triomes and temples in terms of powerlevel and I thought they were pretty darn close to triomes. Now I honestly believe there even better than triomes.

I can see their power/usefulness in any deck that cares about cards in graveyard, but outside of that? I wouldn't consider them stronger than triomes, not in three colour decks Consider let's you draw a card, Survey doesn't, it's a Scry that goes somewhere else if you don't want to draw it the next time you'd draw a card. Any lands with basic land types are decent but they only really shine when you have plenty of fetches. That said, if they remain at decent price range I'd replace my other basic land types non-basics that cannot come in untapped, Survey 1 is better than nothing!

@TheGildedGoose such a great example of writing yourself into a corner

[TheGildedGoose]

@TheGildedGoose such a great example of writing yourself into a corner

If only that small developer had the time and funds to do a second draft.

Bethesda %$#% sucks. They're litigious, they're %$#% to their employees, and they've been fundamentally making the same game for 20 %$#% years. I hate you, Todd.

EDIT: I want to stop talking about Fallout but this thread is going to be triggering for the next few weeks.