How many cards per game does your commander represent?

[toctheyounger]

Bit of a spread here, and it's hard to quantify purely because it depends on the native environment the commander is in and whether your plans go unchecked.

Nissa, Vastwood Seer is relatively dependent. Could be anywhere upwards of 10-15, but conservatively could be closer to 6-7 in a tough game.

Bruna, the Fading Light - 4-5, realistically, based on CMC purely. That being said, I work around generating a lot of value from her, so some of the reanimation chains I can generate would push me up to double figures, and they're often pretty strong cards.

Varina, Lich Queen - Confidently 20 in a reasonable game. In a strong game, easily more, but that's to be expected with an ability like she has.

Yawgmoth, Thran Physician - 5-6 in a bad game, easily a couple dozen in a good one. Really depends what sort of token fodder comes up, but reliably dozens. Unsurprising, really.

Dralnu, Lich Lord - Draw dependent, really. Could be less than 10, If the right cards come up I can be in serious risk of drawing myself out, and I think Lab Man is lame. The real value here is not so much seeing MORE cards, but seeing the same high value cards again, and having a toolbox available to you to solve the board. So it's a little complex with this fella, but the value is there.

Glissa, the Traitor - Similar to Dralnu, but probably more subdued. Board-dependent, but I could probably bank on at seeing at least 6-7 cards back in hand just off of the back of Glissa.

Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - Screeds, obviously.

Purphoros, Bronze-Blooded - None, in terms of seeing what isn't already in my hand. This is what it takes to make the deck run, you really have to devote to keeping it topped up. It's like a gatling gun, devastating with ammo, useless without ammo to put into it.

Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Somewhere between 1-10. The cool thing about it is that it gives you access to cards you wouldn't otherwise have with the clone ability, though. Varies in utility, but not many other commanders can say this.

Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Varies somewhere between 5-6 and Maelstrom Wanderer, depending on how well the jank all fits together.

The Ur-Dragon - Easily over 10, all going well, and similar to Bruna, the Fading Light they're all high value cards I'm seeing.

[darrenhabib]

Its too hard to give any real estimates, so its just easier to break it down into decks that tend to draw as many cards as you want when "goes off" and just give win %.
In this manner the amount is arbitrary, but its likely to be above 20 cards.

Elsha of the Infinite - 90% win rate. Draw entire deck. I'd say the deck I win the most games with where the commander is directly responsible for the "draw".

Chulane, Teller of Tales - 80% win rate. Draw entire deck.

Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - 70% win rate. Draw entire deck.

Feather the Redeemed - 70% win rate. Draw half the deck.

Yawgmoth, Thran Physician - 70% win rate. Draw half the deck.

Winota, Joiner of Forces - 70% win rate. But usually about 2 Triggers first attack. 4 Triggers 2nd. 10 Triggers 3rd. By this stage most people concede. So you could say 16 cards on average before people quit, but of course they go onto the battlefield.
If people stick around for the final finishing attacks, then maybe another 20 Triggers, for a total of 36.

Greven, Predator Captain - 60% win rate. Draw half the deck.

More tangible estimates.

Niv-Mizzet Reborn - 5-15 cards.

Ephara, God of the Polis - 20 cards.

Will Kenrith - 4-8 cards or draw the entire deck.

Aminatou, the Fateshifter - 1-3 cards or draw the entire deck. Offers very little card draw with single blinks, but combos off for infinite.

Then commanders who don't actually provide draw, but are mana or token enablers that lead to draw.

Kykar, Wind's Fury - 85% win rate. Draw entire deck.

Zacama, Primal Calamity - 80% win rate. Draw entire deck.

Estrid, the Masked - 70% win rate. Draw entire deck.

Patron of the Orochi - 70% win rate. Draw entire deck.

Alela, Artful Provocateur - 60% win rate. Draw 10-20 cards.

[DirkGently]

Elsha of the Infinite - 90% win rate. Draw entire deck. I'd say the deck I win the most games with where the commander is directly responsible for the "draw".

It's really hard for me to imagine a deck with a 90% winrate doing infinite draw that isn't just straight-up pubstomping. Have you been a bad boy, darrenhabib?

[darrenhabib]

Elsha of the Infinite - 90% win rate. Draw entire deck. I'd say the deck I win the most games with where the commander is directly responsible for the "draw".[/b]

It's really hard for me to imagine a deck with a 90% winrate doing infinite draw that isn't just straight-up pubstomping. Have you been a bad boy, darrenhabib?

Yes and no. I didn't mean for it to be so effective off the bat, so first 5 games pubstomping.
Then I've only played cEDH games, and still have a record of probably something like 4/5 games.

[pokken]

Winning 80% is pretty feasible on mtgo if you play to win. People scoop a bit early and are generally really bad. I have a 60% win rate and I've lost 5 games with meme kenrith. So I have zero doubts those numbers are accurate.

People generally are very had at multiplayer magic and do a lot of weird stuff.

Those numbers on draw are also basically what I expect playing at the higher end of the power spectrum and part of why I think, broadly speaking, commanders bring a level if advantage most people underestimate.

Hey @darrenhabib, follow up question:

Did you by chance see dirks hypothetical about the uncastable 5c eminence commander that draws one card a turn? If so do you have thoughts as to where that would figure on the power spectrum relative to your favorite decks?

[darrenhabib]

Winning 80% is pretty feasible on mtgo if you play to win. People scoop a bit early and are generally really bad. I have a 60% win rate and I've lost 5 games with meme kenrith. So I have zero doubts those numbers are accurate.

People generally are very had at multiplayer magic and do a lot of weird stuff.

Those numbers on draw are also basically what I expect playing at the higher end of the power spectrum and part of why I think, broadly speaking, commanders bring a level if advantage most people underestimate.

Hey darrenhabib, follow up question:

Did you by chance see dirks hypothetical about the uncastable 5c eminence commander that draws one card a turn? If so do you have thoughts as to where that would figure on the power spectrum relative to your favorite decks?

I'm probably not mentally noting how many games I scoop when I've mulled to 3 cards, so maybe the win % are more based off my memory of games that I remember actually losing with the decks.

I haven't seen the hypothetical 5c eminence commander theory. Give me some context?

[DirkGently]

I haven't seen the hypothetical 5c eminence commander theory. Give me some context?

A theoretical commander with "eminence: at the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card" that is uncastable as a card. Basically, replacing having a commander with an extra card every turn.

I'm pretty sure it'd be the most overpowered commander in the format by a large margin.

We can assume 5c, I think it'd still be the best so long as it's blue, though obviously weaker. If it was mono-red or something it probably wouldn't be cEDH competitive in my estimation.

[darrenhabib]

I haven't seen the hypothetical 5c eminence commander theory. Give me some context?

A theoretical commander with "eminence: at the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card" that is uncastable as a card. Basically, replacing having a commander with an extra card every turn.

I'm pretty sure it'd be the most overpowered commander in the format by a large margin.

We can assume 5c, I think it'd still be the best so long as it's blue, though obviously weaker. If it was mono-red or something it probably wouldn't be cEDH competitive in my estimation.

Yeah that is pretty busted.
Even in cEDH games that might last only 4 turns, that's 4 extra cards you'd get, which can make the difference of "that land that you needed" or that extra card for the Chrome Mox that often make the difference to winning a turn earlier.

Obviously in massive resource denial, like board sweepers the eminence becomes even stronger.
Combine with extra turn cards for natural advantages.

I think as far as powerful commanders, it would rank as a top tier. It might seem surprising given that a Tymna the Weaver could possible draw you 3 cards a turn, or Elsha can draw your entire deck within a few turns. But there is a huge difference to committing those things to the board and having them stick. And drawing from turn dot.
It might seem counter intuitive to think of it as too powerful, given most draw commanders if its Turn 10 will have probably drawn your entire deck, and Tortoiseladon can only have drawn you a maximum of 10 cards (that's assuming you were not using extra turn cards).
But its all about guaranteed early advantage, and using that to control the game to your tempo.

I have no idea how this idea even came up lol.

[DirkGently]

I have no idea how this idea even came up lol.

It was in the drannith magistrate banning discussion, over how valuable having access to one's commander is, and thus how powerful magistrate is by denying that advantage. The postulation was that most commanders draw more than a card/turn, so magistrate was functionally worth a card/turn. My counterargument was that, if someone had the option to give up access to a commander for a card/turn, it would be a really good deal.

I think you hit the nail on the head - most commanders do give more than a card/turn worth of value, but you need to invest mana and they need to be undisrupted. Value that costs nothing and can't be disrupted is a lot more powerful - although of course, in a deck heavily focused around its commander, it probably wouldn't be willing to switch to Tortoiseladon unless it could make changes.

Gotta say, it's so "you" to actually mock up the card. You put a ridiculous amount of effort into your posts.

[pokken]

Giving it stats lets you command beacon it in and reanimate it gotta watch out. "May not leave the commandzone" is the template I'd use.

I actually think the card is more busted in casual than CEDH because not having an infinite mana outlet or combo outlet in the zone is a big deal, but the tempo point is a very important one.

I'll concede that the comparison was off and did not account for tempo appropriately.

[darrenhabib]

Giving it stats lets you command beacon it in and reanimate it gotta watch out. "May not leave the commandzone" is the template I'd use.

I actually think the card is more busted in casual than CEDH because not having an infinite mana outlet or combo outlet in the zone is a big deal, but the tempo point is a very important one.

I'll concede that the comparison was off and did not account for tempo appropriately.

Don't get me wrong, fast mana is nowhere near as good. A first turn Sol Ring normally means that you gain advantages through your commander in most other deck builds. This is the number one reason that commander is the most broken format in all of Magic. More than Vintage imo, because of access to a card that can be cast off incredible mana starts.
And now you can see the problem that companions is having on warping entire formats around them. Commander used to be that busted format, and now everything has access to this idea.
So I don't think OMG that is so completely over-the-top powerful, but it is top tier with the right build around.

And yes I agree it is more busted in casual settings, because an additional 5 cards by turn 5 is going to put you a lot further ahead than most. You're just more likely to have found ramp. More likely to find an answer for opponents busted play. More likely to hit your land drops, etc, etc, in game settings that don't end by Turn 3.

[materpillar]

I actually think the card is more busted in casual than CEDH because not having an infinite mana outlet or combo outlet in the zone is a big deal, but the tempo point is a very important one.

I'll admit, I don't know very much about cEDH but I think you're still underestimating Tortoiseladon. In a 3 player game, the Tortoiseladon player would be able to trade 1 for 1 against both of his opponents at the same time and would only slightly fall behind on card parity. The Tortoiseladon player should rarely lose a counterspell war against any other player in the game because they're just drawing more cards. Combo outlets/infinite mana outlets don't matter if you can never stick them.

I think Tortoiseladon is actually worse the more casual you get. Tortoiseladon doesn't have the same ceiling as Chulane, Teller of Tales or whatever card. In my experience more casual you play, the less people tend to run interaction. That means that massive value engine generals have a tendency to stick around and generate massive value.

I did a quick google of cEDH decklists. How do people win in this format? It looks like basically everyone goes Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal and kills the table. How does anyone ever fight through 3 other players holding Force of Will? It seems like the first person to try to combo off would lose a counter war and then the next player would just combo off since everyone burned resources stopping player 1. Hence, no one should ever be the first to try to combo off?

[pokken]

I did a quick google of cEDH decklists. How do people win in this format? It looks like basically everyone goes Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal and kills the table. How does anyone ever fight through 3 other players holding Force of Will? It seems like the first person to try to combo off would lose a counter war and then the next player would just combo off since everyone burned resources stopping player 1. Hence, no one should ever be the first to try to combo off?

Well remember scepter doesn't do anything without an outlet. Every legit deck that runs scepter is running thrasios, tasigur, urza, or another more fringe infinite mana outlet in the CZ.

The most common wincon these days is demonic consultation + thassa's oracle. The best oracle deck is probably Kess, although that's arguable.

The eminence draw guy would surely be a 5c control deck aiming to win with consultation. There's really no reason to do anything else. The issue with this is that it's likely a lot worse at this than Kess, Dissident Mage.

The issue with CEDH is that CEDH is way more about creature combat than most people think; not being able to always play a blocker for Tymna the Weaver and being forced to remove her is basically a death sentence. Everyone else will be pecking you to draw cards and your one card a turn will never outrace Tymna.

The way people typically win is by being the card advantage leader and stockpiling enough counterspells to jam a combo through; if three players have forces and are trying to advance their boards, you only need 3 counterspells to win, sometimes 4.

Since most CEDH counterspells don't counter Grand Abolisher or Trinisphere you can often win wars that way.

Anyway I am very confident in my assessment that eminence deck would be worse than Kess; the thing about Kess is that Kess can double up combo pieces, and basically does not care about counterspells and can also block Tymna the Weaver.

I had one game where Kess just stockpiled 8 mana and cast Yawgmoth's Will had it countered then cast it again, defended it, then went off. You can't really do that because your deck is going to be loaded full of crap to deal with creatures you can't deal with otherwise.

Tortoiseladon would have to play tons of sweepers and the first time you can't defend one you lose -- sometimes even if you can defend one because you can spend your mana defending it and then be dead.

I think Tortoiseladon is actually worse the more casual you get. Tortoiseladon doesn't have the same ceiling as Chulane, Teller of Tales or whatever card. In my experience more casual you play, the less people tend to run interaction. That means that massive value engine generals have a tendency to stick around and generate massive value.

The reason it's better in casual is that you have more time to accumulate advantage. The typical turn length of CEDH games I've played is 6, and I've usually drawn 10 or more cards off tymna and my other CA engines by then.

In casual you can just sweep the board every single turn and that'll usually be good enough.

Also, casual gamers will really struggle to beat whatever dumb combo you play. Back in the control days nobody could really beat my buddy's stoneforge package control decks

[darrenhabib]

I did a quick google of cEDH decklists. How do people win in this format? It looks like basically everyone goes Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal and kills the table. How does anyone ever fight through 3 other players holding Force of Will? It seems like the first person to try to combo off would lose a counter war and then the next player would just combo off since everyone burned resources stopping player 1. Hence, no one should ever be the first to try to combo off?

Pretty much this. You really don't want to be the first person to try and combo. And this is why resource advantages are so key to the format.
You want to be stockpiling and playing out cards for advantages. People tend to hold onto their disruption for the combo wins, rather than stop steady card advantage.
So if you play out a Bob, nobody is going to Force of Will it. But if unanswered, honestly it can take over a game due to giving you advantages in drawing and playing out more mana, and finding more disruption, etc.

With Flash/Hulk, it was more to do with timing the Flash perfectly, rather than simply going for it the turn you have it assembled. This meant waiting for most of your opponents to be tapped out, and waiting for other spells to be on the stack that opponents have had to react to first.
Now with Flash gone, a lot more wins have to be done at sorcery speed, so at least this makes resource advantages even stronger now and of course trying to be the first to combo even harder. Which is a good thing. People think that cEDH is all about Turn 3 wins, but it isn't. Its the most interactive way commander can be played. This is this misconception that casual is about being a group game, but actually its the opposite, normally decks are more internal, solitaire affairs. Where as cEDH is about all 4 players all duking it out.
Don't get me wrong, Turn 2 or 3 combos still often happen, as somebody has the God hand, and opponents have had to tap out to play their mana in those first 2 turns. So it can be a quick format, but often its about resources and finding the right timing to try and combo.

[materpillar]

The eminence draw guy would surely be a 5c control deck aiming to win with consultation. There's really no reason to do anything else. The issue with this is that it's likely a lot worse at this than Kess, Dissident Mage.

The issue with CEDH is that CEDH is way more about creature combat than most people think; not being able to always play a blocker for Tymna the Weaver and being forced to remove her is basically a death sentence. Everyone else will be pecking you to draw cards and your one card a turn will never outrace Tymna.

...

Anyway I am very confident in my assessment that eminence deck would be worse than Kess; the thing about Kess is that Kess can double up combo pieces, and basically does not care about counterspells and can also block Tymna the Weaver.

You make it sound like literally everyone is playing Tymna, I'm not sure if that's what you meant but that's how I interpret your statements. If Tymna is so broken why aren't there more Sudden Shocks running around? You make it sound like casting that just makes the Tymna player lose since she can no longer get card advantage. Shouldn't everyone just be running Thalia, Guardian of Thraben to crush their opponents CA? If everyone is jamming Tymna, how is anyone actually getting in damage since everyone should have a Tymna to block with...

The reason it's better in casual is that you have more time to accumulate advantage. The typical turn length of CEDH games I've played is 6, and I've usually drawn 10 or more cards off tymna and my other CA engines by then.

You mean you drew 10 cards off Tymna by that time, plus more cards off other CA engines? Otherwise that's not much better than the hypothetical commander. I wonder if you guys could record your cEDH games you have planned for this weekend. I'd be interesting to see some of them play out.

I don't know if I sound aggressive or argumentative. That isn't the case, I'm legitimately curious and just trying to poke at your statements to figure out what is slight exaggeration and what not.

[pokken]

You make it sound like literally everyone is playing Tymna, I'm not sure if that's what you meant but that's how I interpret your statements. If Tymna is so broken why aren't there more Sudden Shocks running around? You make it sound like casting that just makes the Tymna player lose since she can no longer get card advantage. Shouldn't everyone just be running Thalia, Guardian of Thraben to crush their opponents CA? If everyone is jamming Tymna, how is anyone actually getting in damage since everyone should have a Tymna to block with...

Tymna is the best commander in the format period, and people run Toxic Deluge and Pyroclasm to attempt to counteract her, as well as occasionally Massacre. Generally for me when I play Tymna and someone kills it I go "thanks for the card" and cast Thrasios or ramps some more.

Thalia is played some but mostly in non-blue; Thalia is a big problem because it makes counter wars harder to win which makes it easier to combo People do play her but mostly in metapod which is not on blue and wants to try to constrain resources a lot. Metapod is also a Tymna deck of course:P

Cards like Aven Mindcensor do a ton of work for me in my various Tymna decks because they can still draw cards and almost no one has fliers to block with.

Tymna is not all that is played but it kinda defines the format; if you can't block tymna with one of your commanders you are probably not well positioned.

The reason it's better in casual is that you have more time to accumulate advantage. The typical turn length of CEDH games I've played is 6, and I've usually drawn 10 or more cards off tymna and my other CA engines by then.

You mean you drew 10 cards off Tymna by that time, plus more cards off other CA engines? Otherwise that's not much better than the hypothetical commander. I wonder if you guys could record your cEDH games you have planned for this weekend. I'd be interesting to see some of them play out.

I don't know if I sound aggressive or argumentative. That isn't the case, I'm legitimately curious and just trying to poke at your statements to figure out what is slight exaggeration and what not.

You're talking about arguments so not going to get my back up CEDH is a hard animal to understand, I have no problem with questions.

So in the last game I played with Flash hulk, I was drawing 3 cards a turn off Tymna because no one could block Oakhame Adversary or Aven Mindcensor and one guy didn't have blockers. That's 4 cards with Oakhame. I also had a Sylvan Library, so it was pretty much card advantage christmas land. I drew 10 cards over like two turns

That doesn't happen every game. Sometimes people have blockers, sometimes people remove Tymna. I've lost her to Gilded Drake before. But what I see happen when someone tries to control the board (usually a Kess player) is that *someone*'s card advantage engines get going.

One guy in our playgroup plays Kenrith and it's *REALLY* hard to kill Kenrith with CEDH cards. So if you're on tortoiseladon and you kill a tymna then someone sticks Kenrith or Najeela and beats you to death.

The issue with creature removal is that it's not counterspells and it doesn't stop combos, so the format is extremely constrained on how much creature removal you can fit in a deck.

(Incidentally this is one of the reasons Derevi and Metapod are both pretty good decks; they play a huge creature stax suite and the format can't really answer them all; sometimes you'll stick an Sire of Insanity or whateve rand no one can kill it -- my buddy plays Consecrated Sphinx in his inalla deck as a reanimator target and it has won tons of games).

My Opus thief deck plays:

• chain of vapor
• pyroclasm
• toxic deluge
• cyclonic rift
• drown in the loch

And that's quite a lot of creature removal honestly, and I have to save it for stopping Najeela from comboing or Bloom tender or Worldgorger dragon, I can't often be spending it randomly killing someone's Tymna they can just replay.

In Opus thief if you kill Tymna I'm just gonna cast Kraum and start bashing for 4 while drawing cards In Tymna&Thrasios people will just plop Thrasios down and try to accumulate cards/ramp.

I would guess your average CEDH table has 2 Tymnas but I have played at 4-tymna tables before.

[BaronCappuccino]

Judith, the Scourge Diva brings the pain in my Shadowborn Apostle Aristocrats deck. She serves as removal and as a win condition. I've never thought about how many cards she counts as. If I'm lucky enough to solitaire over the top of my opponents, she's just one card, coming down before I begin looping Apostle sacrifices. Odds are, that's not how it goes, and if she's out on turn three, doing a crowd pleasing Goblin Sharpshooter impression, and of course there's something like a Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker in play, she could be racking up quite a removal tally and count for quite a few cards.

[umtiger]

How can I possibly calculate this for my primary deck?

I play Child of Alara, there are so many games that I play where I don't even cast it.

[pokken]

How can I possibly calculate this for my primary deck?

I play Child of Alara, there are so many games that I play where I don't even cast it.

If you can't calculate it you can't calculate it

My guess with Child is that it averages 6 or 7 cards at least by blowing up that many things, depends on how hard you go at reusing it.

[JoeyB11223]

Hmm I'd say..

Doran, the Siege Tower 0 realistically, his presence doesn't make any impact on the sources of draw.

Xenagos, God of Revels I'd say, assuming I draw a relevant piece of card draw, which I usually do, probably at least 5-6, but other times 20+. Purely due to doubling p/t and thus doubling the draw based on power cards.

Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest Again 0 in itself generally, probably the only draw which cares about his ability to pump creatures is Greater Good, so obviously there yes, but I think that's the only draw in the deck where his impact is relevant.

Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive I'd probably say 10+, key to those 1p/t creatures that let you draw on connecting and there's a lot in the deck along with Bident of Thassa type effects

Horobi, Death's Wail In most games probably 0, but if Harvester of Souls or Kothophed, Soul Hoarder is out he can wipe the board so 6+cards easy.

[tstorm823]

I actually tend to gravitate toward generals that are the spout rather than the engine. Zedruu is 3ish if people are fun police, typically 5-10 if she sticks, and then occasionally games get degenerate with Knowledge Pool s and zedruu draws like 20 cards over a couple turns.

Sisay, Weatherlight Captain is busted and worth 10 cards by turn 5. I have every intention of replacing her with a less extreme 5-color commander. It's actually a pretty good illustration of the principle here, commanders that represent that much value that consistently that losing them makes the deck stop running, assuming the deck was built with that engine in mind.

I'd personally argue Olivia, Mobilized for War is worth like 60 cards, because haste lets you kill people before your opponents all draw 20 more cards than you with their card draw generals.

[3drinks]

For those of you that have played against my Alesha, I'd reckon she's worth about 12 or 13 cards in a given game, with all the DLZs and Inspectours I'm bringing back.

[tstorm823]

with all the DLZs and Inspectours I'm bringing back.

Pretty sure neither of those are words.

[3drinks]

with all the DLZs and Inspectours I'm bringing back.

Pretty sure neither of those are words.

Dusk Legion Zealot
Thraben Inspector

[FoxOfWar]

A curious topic to think about. I generally dive in flavor-first, then some corner of game mechanics that satisfies me to build, and actual viability is somewhere a distant third.

I do tend to lean towards commanders that aren't that much raw card draw, but rather a piece of some complicated engine that is my deck. Though admittedly there are exceptions (Azor, the Lawbringer and Nezahal, Primal Tide, you may now bow your heads in shame).

Compare to Polukranos (either of them), Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs, Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder, Dragonlord Silumgar, Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge, Gonti, Lord of Luxury or Tariel, Reckoner of Souls and the average 'card-comparable value' varies so wildly per game so as to be impossible to say. When you're somewhat(or wholly, hi Gonti. Thanks for exiling four lands that one time.) dependant on what your opponents play, it's a wild amount of highs and lows. Some games you literally ride to advantage via the commander's abilities. Sometimes they have seemingly no value at all - though granted, it's generally a safe assumption that your opponents will play creatures.

Buuut that's the kind of madness I embrace. I do have my Tatyova, Karador, Breya and Tazri that just wholly don't care what the opponents are doing, though, on the other end of the reliability spectrum.