Should cEDH spin off into its own format?

[RxPhantom]

With Commander's ascension to Magic's most popular format, cEDH has definitely been growing in popularity too. Commander traditionalists often lock horns with cEDH enthusiasts over the latter's place in the community, as well as the direction of the format. Quite often, the debate turns to whether or not cEDH should be its own format.

Personally, I think it should. Exclusion isn't my endgame here, but rather, mutual satisfaction. Does cEDH really benefit from the overall philosophy of Commander proper, especially when it comes to the banlist? Wouldn't they be perfectly fine with stuff like Prophet of Kruphix and Primeval Titan? This is my main argument (I can expound on others in subsequent discussion), that the cEDH experience would be enhanced if they had a banlist that was designed for the experience they want to have.

It's already treated like its own format. Check out the events for CommandFest Richmond. You can sign up for cEDH or casual Commander. That's it. No other stratifications. cEDH gets its own designation and rest of us can figure it out. That means my tuned-but-not-cEDH decks may get matched up with unicorn tribal or a gloves-themed deck. Oh joy. I want to push back against the notion that anything below cEDH's power level is just some worthless jank pile.

This brings me to a tangentially related idea that I saw on a Commander gameplay channel on YouTube called Kingdoms. They do a series called Melee, and they describe it as high-powered decks that still try to embrace some jank. That hews much closer to my style. Of course, we can't just split Commander into these esoteric mini-formats, so maybe my reasoning is flawed when it comes to cEDH spinning off.

Anyway, I've rambled enough. What say you, Nexus? Should cEDH officially split into its own format? Is everything fine the way it is? Will my dreams of dominating with a Tor Wauki deck every going to be realized? Are you going to CommandFest Richmond, because I really want you to! You'll get to hang with me, @TheAmericanSpirit, and @benjameenbear!

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I say yes, but that's mostly because I've played french Duel Commander and seen what a curated banlist does for competitive singleton. Will it happen? Not likely. The cEDH crowd seem totally unmotivated to make their own banlist or establish their own RC, and they can't and shouldn't be forced to do so involuntarily, even if they'd derive better longterm satisfaction from doing such imo.

Seriously, cEDH could be really cool if it was merely autonomous. Picture this: a competitive, multiplayer singleton format with a banlist curated by tournaments, local results, and democratic engagement. No longer would cedh enthusiasts be beholden to a cryptic and uninterested RC, instead freed to solve their format's issues as they arise. The distinct banlist would also help keep cedh and edh pools seperate. Win-win. But they gotta wanna do it for it to happen.

[DirkGently]

Conceptually I love it but realistically there will always be people trying too hard at normal EDH. CEDH at least gives them a label so we can separate ourselves from them.

[ISBPathfinder]

I said no but really only because there are a lot of semi competitive decks that aren't considered cEDH that fall in between the cracks. In my opinion the RC should just ban extreme outliers for cEDH because there are more than a few trickle down problems from cEDH that still become problems in between but above the casual level of gameplay (looking at you thassa's oracle)

[Treamayne]

I said "Yes" but realize that it wouldn't really stop what, to me, is the biggest part of this problem (unless deck construction had some significant change) - Pubstompers.

I have no problem with cEDH players playing cEDH players - hey, play what you like.
I have a huge problem with cEDH players and wannabes* sitting at a casual table and trying to justify ruining a game for 3-5 other players because <excuse>

Where <excuse> has been things like: "My deck is casual because . . .
- it doesn't have ABUR Duals"
- I'm not playing off-color fetches"
- I have 3MV rocks"
- All tutors are 3MV or more"
- etc.

*Note: I use this term to mean those players that netdeck a cEDH pile (or at least > 50% of one) and play it "because its strong," but don't really understand the deck or how to run it. Their pubstomping is more incidental than malicious - but they are "chasing the W" at the expense of others rather than trying to improve themselves and "earn the W."
Usually they don't realize there is a difference.

[RedCheese]

I say yes. The format is different from normal EDH, with a different philosophy. But for been on the same format as casual EDH, it spills on the more casual part of the format having pubstompers. The competitive mindset of cEDH gets mixed with the casual side in a sense. Also it keeps creating an arms race in a group, reaching a point where my janky decks are useless.

I want to ask a question for the cEDH players is, why not? Whats the problem having a seperate banlist and everything? Wouldnt actually be better for you since you wull get bans like Flash faster? Also get unbans for Prime Time and others.

[RxPhantom]

@Treamayne: I actually have trouble figuring out where the line between high-powered EDH ends and cEDH begins. I have one deck that uses mostly 2MV ramp, most of the best lands possible, and several 2MV tutors. It wins by controlling the board mainly through manipulating opponents' creatures in various ways. I don't think it can hang at a cEDH table, but can be oppressive at anything lower. Of course, maybe cEDH uses creatures more often than I assume.

The pubstomping can be an issue, but I think this is a byproduct of these players not being able find entire pods of likeminded players. I can sympathize with that, but after they win once or twice by predictably tutoring for their combo pieces, I'll then resort to social pressure to either get them to switch or politely tell them that this pod may not be to their liking. I don't like shuffling a 100-card deck, often double-sleeved, just for everything to be over by T3 or 4. Not my style, for sure.

Also, Treamayne and @RedCheese, come to CommandFest Richmond!

[RedCheese]

Also, Treamayne and @RedCheese, come to CommandFest Richmond!

Would have liked to, but living in a different continent doesnt make it feaseble .

[Ruiner]

Personally I don't really see much point in separating the formats.

People who want to steamroll/pubstomp are going to play the most high power deck configurations they can within whatever restrictions you place upon them. It seems to me that it is a player mentality issue, not a format issue.

For context, my usual playgroup is a number of mostly longtime players, with decks full of "high power" cards (real mostly but we don't care about proxies) in many cases, but not in the CEDH realm. I suspect there are a lot of people in similar situations who enjoy using all of these cards but aren't running top tier ultra competitive decks. I like to say it's "competitively casual" where you see ABU Duals, Cradle, Mana Drain, etc., but in jank dragon decks or rogue tribal, or even decently strong decks that arent top tier. Tuned decks that would probably steamroll precon level decks but would suffer in a real CEDH environment (we are high on interaction but even still, the win cons aren't as efficient).

What benefit does "normal EDH" actually get from this separation? What stops a CEDH deck from being used in a "normal EDH" game to steamroll due to power level disparity, unless the banned list is significantly different with "normal EDH" being far more restrictive?

[Magiqmaster]

In my opinion, it all boils down to rule zero discussions, and by having players being honest and fully aware of the power of their decks. It will always be, however, open to one's own perspective on that point as this is not a black or white issue. Thus, it will remain arduous to obtain an environment where players truly know in which pod they belong since there are so many factors that can affect one's perception of their decks' power versus other decks.

One the other hand, there will always be pubstompers (knowingly or not), so I don't think there is an easy way to resolve the issue, other than "educating" the offenders so they stop doing that.

Just my 2 cents.

[Treamayne]

@Treamayne: I actually have trouble figuring out where the line between high-powered EDH ends and cEDH begins. I have one deck that uses mostly 2MV ramp, most of the best lands possible, and several 2MV tutors. It wins by controlling the board mainly through manipulating opponents' creatures in various ways. I don't think it can hang at a cEDH table, but can be oppressive at anything lower. Of course, maybe cEDH uses creatures more often than I assume.

But I would bet that you discuss your options with the table, and adjust if they are significantly lower power than that specific deck. When I say "pubstomper" I mean somebody who is purposely mis-representing their deck because they are chasing a win (at anybody's expense) and/or players that simply put their personal enjoyment above any other player's lack thereof or the enjoyment of the table as a whole.

If I am lucky, I can get 3-5 games / month. When 4-5 of those are pubstomped to oblivion, it can raise my ire a bit. Example: Obviously by "Tribal decktest" I mean I want to see only 10-12 cards then watch that player take a 20 minute turn to combo out on turn 4. . .

The pubstomping can be an issue, but I think this is a byproduct of these players not being able find entire pods of likeminded players. I can sympathize with that, but after they win once or twice by predictably tutoring for their combo pieces, I'll then resort to social pressure to either get them to switch or politely tell them that this pod may not be to their liking. I don't like shuffling a 100-card deck, often double-sleeved, just for everything to be over by T3 or 4. Not my style, for sure.

Personally I don't really see much point in separating the formats.

People who want to steamroll/pubstomp are going to play the most high power deck configurations they can within whatever restrictions you place upon them. It seems to me that it is a player mentality issue, not a format issue.

What benefit does "normal EDH" actually get from this separation? What stops a CEDH deck from being used in a "normal EDH" game to steamroll due to power level disparity, unless the banned list is significantly different with "normal EDH" being far more restrictive?

Which is why I said that even though I would like to see them separated, I don't think it would help the pubstomping problem unless the deck construction rules shifted enough that decks were not mutually compatible (then we would still have pubstompers - just hopefully fewer as they would have somewhere to go to get the games they want).

For context, my usual playgroup is a number of mostly longtime players, with decks full of "high power" cards (real mostly but we don't care about proxies) in many cases, but not in the CEDH realm. I suspect there are a lot of people in similar situations who enjoy using all of these cards but aren't running top tier ultra competitive decks. I like to say it's "competitively casual" where you see ABU Duals, Cradle, Mana Drain, etc., but in jank dragon decks or rogue tribal, or even decently strong decks that arent top tier. Tuned decks that would probably steamroll precon level decks but would suffer in a real CEDH environment (we are high on interaction but even still, the win cons aren't as efficient).

Yeah, I don't think individual card quality is a defining factor; it's deck design and playstyle. Which is why I was mocking their "supposed" reasons that their (likely netdecked) "Casual deck" wasn't casual.

Also, Treamayne and @RedCheese, come to CommandFest Richmond!

Unfortunately, though location is not as much a factor as normal, timing is.

[Sinis]

Didn't vote, but I kind of lean to "yes - sort of"

I think that cEDH as a whole needs to engage in rule 0 conversations. Is ThOracle broken? There needs to be a widespread and central agreement that for 'cEDH events', ThOracle is banned.

The truth of the matter is other communities do it. My favourite is the speedrunning community, that does stuff like Any%, no major glitches, etc. If a community out there can rule 0 their competitions, so can people who play cEDH. There are enough cEDH content creators and event organizers out there that this is something they could do.

If this makes cEDH de facto it's own format, so be it.

[ISBPathfinder]

Didn't vote, but I kind of lean to "yes - sort of"

I think that cEDH as a whole needs to engage in rule 0 conversations. Is ThOracle broken? There needs to be a widespread and central agreement that for 'cEDH events', ThOracle is banned.

The truth of the matter is other communities do it. My favourite is the speedrunning community, that does stuff like Any%, no major glitches, etc. If a community out there can rule 0 their competitions, so can people who play cEDH. There are enough cEDH content creators and event organizers out there that this is something they could do.

If this makes cEDH de facto it's own format, so be it.

Thassa's Oracle is busted as hell in essentially any deck that is going to run it. I am not saying that you can't play it in some super casual mono blue devotion deck to get your scry on but realistically I would say its almost exclusively run to execute that win the game function that makes it break games in half. Even shy of playing cEDH I have a VERY strong hatred for this card and from what I hear its literally everywhere in cEDH.

Its got the Hermit Druid problem where technically it has a fair use case but Hermit Druid isn't 1/3 as good of a card in the top end decks as T Oracle is. The impression I sort of got was that everyone in cEDH just sort of stopped trying to do most things that aren't Thassa's Oracle. I don't play cEDH so I can't confirm but its really bad.

[Sinis]

Didn't vote, but I kind of lean to "yes - sort of"

I think that cEDH as a whole needs to engage in rule 0 conversations. Is ThOracle broken? There needs to be a widespread and central agreement that for 'cEDH events', ThOracle is banned.

The truth of the matter is other communities do it. My favourite is the speedrunning community, that does stuff like Any%, no major glitches, etc. If a community out there can rule 0 their competitions, so can people who play cEDH. There are enough cEDH content creators and event organizers out there that this is something they could do.

If this makes cEDH de facto it's own format, so be it.

Thassa's Oracle is busted as hell in essentially any deck that is going to run it. I am not saying that you can't play it in some super casual mono blue devotion deck to get your scry on but realistically I would say its almost exclusively run to execute that win the game function that makes it break games in half.

Maybe it's the company I keep, but I've seen exactly one game won off of ThOracle, and it is run occasionally in my group. It doesn't strike me as a problem.

Even shy of playing cEDH I have a VERY strong hatred for this card and from what I hear its literally everywhere in cEDH.

Its got the Hermit Druid problem where technically it has a fair use case but Hermit Druid isn't 1/3 as good of a card in the top end decks as T Oracle is. The impression I sort of got was that everyone in cEDH just sort of stopped trying to do most things that aren't Thassa's Oracle. I don't play cEDH so I can't confirm but its really bad.

I was told that they only needed Flash banned, and that a balanced competitive environment would reign supreme forever, and I'm holding people to that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ http://nxs.wf/np76173

I'll be honest, "X is broken in competitive circles and needs a ban" is never going to end. If it isn't ThOracle, it will be something else. Just like it was with Flash. I'm still bitter they took Flash from me.

[ISBPathfinder]

Didn't vote, but I kind of lean to "yes - sort of"

I think that cEDH as a whole needs to engage in rule 0 conversations. Is ThOracle broken? There needs to be a widespread and central agreement that for 'cEDH events', ThOracle is banned.

The truth of the matter is other communities do it. My favourite is the speedrunning community, that does stuff like Any%, no major glitches, etc. If a community out there can rule 0 their competitions, so can people who play cEDH. There are enough cEDH content creators and event organizers out there that this is something they could do.

If this makes cEDH de facto it's own format, so be it.

Thassa's Oracle is busted as hell in essentially any deck that is going to run it. I am not saying that you can't play it in some super casual mono blue devotion deck to get your scry on but realistically I would say its almost exclusively run to execute that win the game function that makes it break games in half.

Maybe it's the company I keep, but I've seen exactly one game won off of ThOracle, and it is run occasionally in my group. It doesn't strike me as a problem.

Even shy of playing cEDH I have a VERY strong hatred for this card and from what I hear its literally everywhere in cEDH.

Its got the Hermit Druid problem where technically it has a fair use case but Hermit Druid isn't 1/3 as good of a card in the top end decks as T Oracle is. The impression I sort of got was that everyone in cEDH just sort of stopped trying to do most things that aren't Thassa's Oracle. I don't play cEDH so I can't confirm but its really bad.

I was told that they only needed Flash banned, and that a balanced competitive environment would reign supreme forever, and I'm holding people to that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ http://nxs.wf/np76173

I'll be honest, "X is broken in competitive circles and needs a ban" is never going to end. If it isn't ThOracle, it will be something else. Just like it was with Flash. I'm still bitter they took Flash from me.

This was before fire design. They broke magic in really bad ways for 2-3 blocks and needed to ban a hell of a lot of cards across a lot of formats. The things I hear on Oracle are mostly from others who have to play against this stuff but Tainted Pact is a problem in that it can dig through any amount of your deck lessening your deck count until you find oracle or if you already have oracle it works to allow you to dump the rest of your deck at instant speed.

Flash also needed two cards in hand being the hulk and flash. This new Tainted Pact + Thassa's Oracle isn't that much different but it costs a little more mana and is a lot harder to interact with being that you are down to counter magic, stifles, or some sort of Angel's Grace to stop it. Flash Hulk was vulnerable to instant speed creature interaction and grave hate on top of most of the things that stop Oracle.

I remember the statement where cEDH was only asking for that one ban. Things have changed since then in that wizards decided to print completely busted cards. Honestly I don't play cEDH and Thassa's Oracle is a huge problem for me even just with decks like Tatyova, Benthic Druid I see players draw 40+ cards on turn 5 more often than I would like to admit. Oracle is a problem in most places that it sees play. If its not a problem for you, its probably because its not being played much or not being played by decks that plan to draw their entire deck before you can cast your Sun Titan.

For the record, I have and had never seen Flash played before. I was indifferent on its banning. I have a very large issue with Thassa's Oracle.

[RxPhantom]

I'm still bitter they took Flash from me.

Same. Very bitter. It was the single coolest, most versatile card in my favorite deck. And it was sacrificed in a mea culpa to cEDH.

[Sinis]

For the record, I have and had never seen Flash played before. I was indifferent on its banning. I have a very large issue with Thassa's Oracle.

I say this a lot to people, but, I'll say it again.

Decline to play people who are playing Thassa's Oracle. Make it part of your Rule 0 conversation.

Same. Very bitter. It was the single coolest, most versatile card in my favorite deck. And it was sacrificed in a mea culpa to cEDH.

Yup. And here we are, its banning having barely mattered at all.

[DirkGently]

I don't care too much about flash but I do think it was dumb to unban hulk. Never had that card positively contribute to a game.

[Venedrex]

Has anyone ever heard the tragedy of Darth Thassa's Oracle the wise? I thought not. It's not a story the Wotc would tell you. It's an old FIRE legend. Darth Thassa's oracle was a Dark Lord of the FIRE, so powerful and so wise she could use the stack to influence the game rules to create victory… She had such a knowledge of the FIRE side that she could even keep the ones she cared about from dying. The FIRE side of the Game is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. She became so powerful… the only thing she was afraid of was losing her power, which eventually, of course, she did. Unfortunately, she taught her apprentice everything she knew, then her apprentice killed her in her sleep. Ironic. She could save others from death, but not herself.

[BeneTleilax]

I think, in addition to the previously stated benefits, that splitting the format will also make it harder for WotC to exploit. The more the philosophies, banlists and metagames diverge, the harder it is to make a ThOracle-like card that becomes a problem in both at once (for what it's worth, I only play casual and it's been more annoying there than the couple cEDH games I've spectated). EDH is certainly big enough to fracture into sustainable sub-formats.

[Legend]

voted yes.

sanction : unsanctioned would be a better delineation imo

[3drinks]

Its not gonna matter. The issue isn't cDH vs not cDH but rather the approaches of players both for against, such as the demonizing happening toward cDH by some right here in this thread. If you don't play it, you don't understand it and speaking out against something you don't understand is ignorance to the fullest extent. Full stop.

The real solution comes down to the same thing it has always come down to. Talk. To. The. Players. At. The. Start. Get a consensus to the type of game you expect. The way I see it, if it's not on the banlist, you're just whining about losing to something. "If I'm gonna reanimate runescarred to get eaten by ruthless technomancer, where is the harm?" Maybe stop getting salty and talk to players outside the game (though this is a rather tame line of play by example, but I digress).

At any rate, splitting the format just won't solve the issue as presented in the original post. And that's why I voted no.

[BaronCappuccino]

I don't think splitting is possible. The point of cEDH is to take the EDH rules to the limit. Its constituents have viable alternatives for competitively balanced EDH. They want to play EDH. There are platform games designed for speed running, but folks who want to speed run Mega Man or Mario aren't going to jump ship. EDH is the point, just played competitively. It can't split.

[Jemolk]

I give it a partial "yes" -- I don't think it's possible to have it be entirely its own thing, completely severed from casual, but I do think that it should be more explicitly differentiated, perhaps as a subformat, from casual, simply because the mindsets involved are often so different. cEDH is in many ways closer to 4-player Vintage than it is to your average casual game, despite sharing rules with the latter and not the former. Nothing wrong with enjoying the format that way, mind, but it's definitely already to some degree its own thing, similar to how a random playthrough of a random Zelda game is quite distinct from a speedrun of the same game. Casual EDH and cEDH are two different takes on the same format, and neither an absolute split, nor total conflation serves either well IMHO.

I'm also very tired of arguing with internet dwellers on YouTube and MTGGoldfish who think that competitive balancing for the format is just obviously universally better, and will not step outside their own bubble for half a %$#%$#% second to acknowledge that I even have a point at all, so I might be a little biased by that to think a stronger statement on the nature of casual commander is needed. I know that's not most of the cEDH crowd, but damn are the competitive supremacists loud and annoying to deal with. Maybe the explicit acknowledgement of cEDH could also help cEDH proponents deal with any obnoxious casual supremacists, who I haven't run into that I know of, but who I'm sure exist.

[BeneTleilax]

I know that's not most of the cEDH crowd, but damn are the competitive supremacists loud and annoying to deal with. Maybe the explicit acknowledgement of cEDH could also help cEDH proponents deal with any obnoxious casual supremacists, who I haven't run into that I know of, but who I'm sure exist.

cEDH having an RC to keep those people in line, or at least push them out of the format's mainstream would be nice. From my experience, the shouty pubstompy guys tend to be the ones that have already fallen out of their cEDH metas, either because they couldn't keep up skillwise or simply no-one wanted to play with them, so they go bother casuals or soapbox on Reddit.

As for a competitive banlist, I don't want one, but I see that bandied about a lot to dismiss bans I want for the sake of casual, like ThOracle. It's a win on the stack that requires no dead cards, and in casual, no particular gameplay or deckbuilding skill. I think it'd be cool to see what cEDH does ban, or if they move to a points list like CanLander, just to have a comparison, but the two are gonna diverge pretty quick. I remember when the casual end of the format was the banlist-maximalist wing, and the very online wing of cEDH was real mad that they couldn't play Prophet of Kruphix (which was never even good in cEDH), so I reckon all that's gonna come off the banlist and we'll get at least some sense of what deep synergies are there, and what's been defanged by time.