Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[duducrash]

Not sure I want to talk to a post phrased as defensively as that

edit: cos they print too many commanders for the number of abilities they've put together. most of them token generators are from the last five years, almost all from the last ten and it's boring and I disapprove of the massive dutifully imagination-free glut of stuff that only ever accelerates

Gonna have to agree with @BeneTleilax here, what are hou talking about? No one can deny the power creep in the last 5 years, but how are flying tokens in anyway more egregious than cheating mana costs, drawing cards, untapping permanents, or straight up winning the game (all of which we've seen a bit of lately)? Man, if flying tokens are getting your goat, your meta must be mythically casual. I mean, I kinda envy that, but I also don't want to live in a world where flying tokens are a gamebreaking menace.

What a world.

I read it not as in a complaint about power level but as a complaint about lack of creativity in exploring different design spaces

[BeneTleilax]

cos they print too many commanders for the number of abilities they've put together. most of them token generators are from the last five years, almost all from the last ten and it's boring and I disapprove of the massive dutifully imagination-free glut of stuff that only ever accelerates

There's 64 commanders with trample that care about creatures! There's 12 with haste and first strike! Look, I can also make random scryfall searches and pretend they're part of a larger trend!

Also, they've printing more generals than ever, so most [anything] generals will be from the past 10 years. Unless you're just phrasing that actual topic in the most pointlessly specific way, you'll have to actually show some more work on the proportions over time than a "pernicious" (I really don't think that's the word you mean to use by the way) little keyword query.

[Dunadain]

farewell is likely to be very popular. I guess if you're running a lot of creatures that fit under/over Austere Command that might still be better, but the flexibility of farewell is pretty nuts. Possibly good enough for Phelddagrif although 6 is kinda steep. But having universal exile has been something I've wanted in the deck for a while. Doesn't even self-exile like Perilous Vault.

Slam dunk for my list, so long Play of the Game, you saved my butt a number of times but you were too inconsistent.

Outside of the hippo, it's kinda nuts how flexible and permanent this wipe is, 6MV might scare away some decks, but it actually seems pretty aggressively priced to me.

In my decks that run only a limited number of board wipes, I want them to be as global as possible, Maybe It's just my meta but the odds that someone is playing artifacts or enchantress is so high the Supreme Verdicts aren't good enough (if I'm running a deck with a high wipe count, they usually work just fine, but if I'm only running 1-3 wipes, the gotos, in order, are Hour of Revelation, Devastating Mastery, and Ondu Inversion // Ondu Skyruins)/ Are other meta's like this or do I just live in a artifact/enchantment spammy meta? Admittedly, I think it's dropped down a bit since I've began including some potent artifact/enchantment hate, but it's still easily the most popular style in my games.

[folding_music]

what do you mean, "show more work?" you made exasperated noises about a throwaway post I made and decided it was a debate or something?

[BeneTleilax]

exasperated noises about a throwaway post

No, I said your throwaway post was silly, and you then decided I was being defensive. If you weren't making a point, and were just posting the results of your latest scryfall search to the thread, maybe don't do that? I don't think the rest of us are particularly interested. Admitting it was an unconsidered %$#% unworthy of analysis isn't the point you think it is.

Anyways, the art in this set seems to be consistently above average for recent years. It really feels like they thought they were taking a risk with this set, and wanted to do everything they could to make it good. I find myself wondering how often "risky" sets are uncommonly interesting isn't because of the risk per say, but because everyone did a better job to try and mitigate that risk.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

what do you mean, "show more work?" you made exasperated noises about a throwaway post I made and decided it was a debate or something?

I really mean no offense when I say that I think Bene and I are more shocked as to the odd target of your ire rather than the ire within itself. It's just really weird to see anyone take umbrage with flying tokens, it's a totally novel complaint with the current state of magic. Me, I just wanna know how you got there. Too many Kykars and Sai, Master Thopterist decks in your meta maybe? Or do your people just wanna rumble with wurms, etc and random birds keep getting in the way?

I mean all of this with total sincerity. Your post fascinates me, folding_music. It truly does. Please elucidate.

[Guardman]

While there are somethings I wish were different (Snakes need legs dammit!), I am overall very excited for the set. A lot more than I were for the two Innistrad sets (which I've never quite understood why I don't seem to enjoy as a plane since I love classic horror and trashy vampire romance novels). I am most excited because there are several Legendaries I am excited about in this set. My favorites are (In color order):

• Nashi, Moon Sage's Scion - While I don't like that the card doesn't really fit the character (needs to be a blue/black artificer with a scavenger bent), I like the design of the card. Playing other people's cards is a favorite hobby of mine and this hits in spades as a mini Etali, Primal Storm.
• Goro-Goro, Disciple of Ryusei - I like the two abilities, especially the ability to create dragon tokens. While I love him, I doubt I would ever build a deck with him, as I already have other monored commanders I love more and the things I would most like to do with him (i.e abuse the **** out of dragon tokens) don't have the most support in red.
• Heiko Yamazaki, the General - While Norika Yamazaki, the Poet is also neat, I feel much more drawn to Heiko (though they should've had partner and been in the supplemental cards in my opinion). I love mono-red. And I feel that the ability to recast artifacts is a lot more useful than enchantments.
• Kodama of the West Tree - More of an honorable mention since I feel like I would be much more excited to play xym in the 99 since I usually don't like monogreen decks. But I like the idea of modified creatures and the payoff.
• Greasefang, Okiba Boss - My favorite legend of the set. I am a big fan of vehicles and Greasefang takes vehicles in a new and interesting direction. Nothing like discarding a Parhelion II on turn two and swinging with it on turn three to really show your opponents you mean business.
• Hinata, Dawn-Crowned - As much as I love this card and design, I am horrified to actually build a deck with her since I could see her being the lynch pin of a deck that doesn't do anything that cool, but plays out mostly the same each game.
• Naomi, Pillar of Order - While probably too weak, especially considering all the other Black-White token commanders there are, I do appreciate the puzzle and build restrictions around her payoff.

[Wallycaine]

Nashi, Moon Sage's Scion feels like a flavor home run to me, and I'm confused where the idea that a Nezumi teenager was "clearly" going to be a blue artificer comes from. He's presented as a kid doing scavenging and looking up to a sneaky ninja, both of which are well reflected on his card. On a cyberpunk plane, the bar for being blue because of tech is way, way higher than "has some tech".

[Guardman]

Nashi, Moon Sage's Scion feels like a flavor home run to me, and I'm confused where the idea that a Nezumi teenager was "clearly" going to be a blue artificer comes from. He's presented as a kid doing scavenging and looking up to a sneaky ninja, both of which are well reflected on his card. On a cyberpunk plane, the bar for being blue because of tech is way, way higher than "has some tech".

I read him similar, but more like he is a scavenger that is really interested in making his own inventions out of scrap. He wants to invent for invention sake. And pure self-improvement is a very blue motivation. Plus there is the whole fact he is literally named Moon Sage's Scion as a nod to his family. I would've preferred to see his card care about doing stuff with artifacts in graveyards.

Also looking up to a ninja doesn't make one anymore of a ninja than me looking up to Theodore Roosevelt makes me a Rough Rider.

[Myllior]

Like, without Sisay at the helm, you probably aren't going to play all the ways to untap and spam her in a shrine theme deck, so you're going to end up making major deck changes anyway. The question becomes do you prefer a different general or prefer playing Sisay without things like Derevi and Medomai?

I realised there's a fourth option: Omit the Sakashimas. This is actually the easiest option too, since I realised my copies are currently tied up in other decks. Without Sakashima, the play I outlined earlier only gives 3 Sisay activations and an extra turn. You can then get 5 activations (Sisay, Derevi, Jegantha and 2xSamut) on the extra turn - the 8 total activations then being enough to get 21 total Shrines - but at least it takes another turn cycle before the lethal Stone Fang kicks in, giving time for sorcery speed interaction.

Allows me to play all the new Go-Shintai, keep Sisay as the commander and retain the 'turbo-Shrine' playstyle of the deck without a significant overall change in the deck power from current. I think that's my solution for now. Danke!

[BeneTleilax]

Currently pondering whether to put Ao in Millicent. He's a big evasive spirit that frustrating to kill, but I do want to keep my curve lower as a go-wide deck without any OTK cards.

[Serenade]

Always interesting to see how they push certain ideas forward each set. For example, Master's Rebuke as the 2mv green my-creature-damages-yours instant. I look at Ram Through and Inscription of Abundance as my top picks for this effect (treating it as a spot removal slot in monoG) outside of counters-/legends-matter stuff. Rebuke hitting PWs…probably moves it to my baseline spell.

Similarly, I look forward to trying Spinning Wheel Kick as a green wrath. I had been using just Ezuri's Predation to try to clear the board. I feel like there's a cap on Apex Altisaur, but that's another option. Kick obviously works best with deathtouch critters.

[Gashnaw]

So, I gotta be honest -- I've been looking at the spoilers largely to try and see if I can see anything that would go into my Kami Tribal deck, and I'm increasingly disappointed to see that it looks like only one card would fit -- that being The Kami War. I've also got a ninja deck, but I'd rather avoid the "cyberpunk" portion of the set for aesthetic reasons, meaning I'm really disappointed to see that basically all the ninjas fit into that half of the setting. All in all, my two Kamigawa-themed decks are probably going to get less from this set than my other decks. I'm just really disappointed with this entire set, and I'm hard-pressed to feel anything but apathy toward it.

Anyone else disappointed that there seems to be so vanishingly little synergy between the old Kamigawa block and the new set? It's ninjutsu and a scattering of individual cards that don't actually fill any needed niche, and the aesthetics of the ninjas between the two clash horribly. I dunno, maybe I'm just too attached to nostalgia, but this set just feels so subtly wrong to me on so many levels, and it's killed any possible enthusiasm I could have had for a return to Kamigawa.

My only gripe with the ninjas is that there are some that are just out there, like the Fox Nina and the Turtle Ninja (And springleaf which is actualy pretty good IMO). My Yuriko deck can't run the frogrider either. I don't mind the cyberpunk look, in fact that was why i was excited to go back to Kamigawa. (Well that and getting new ninas)

I am not super happy about the shrines being creatures. i mean i like that now i have a REAL commander option (As opposed to using Sanctum to all) but still. (Oh well, now i have 16 shrines) Still not tribal enough but getting there. Maybe I will have to wait another 10 yeas to come back. Or maybe i will be lucky and we get more shrines in a set soon. (Oh well, at least Go-Shintai can be used for other enchantments as well as Shrines. (Like Omniscience)

[CommanderMaster999]

I am looking forward to Go-Shintai of Life's Origin for two constellation triggers and recursion. And also the shrine stuff. Glad they got that right unlike Lynde, Cheerful Tormentor...who is missing white, the best curse color.

Also excited for the good boi partner.

Oh that's how I'm building life's origin

Shrines, Constellation, and for a backup plan Devotion/theros gods

[BeneTleilax]

I actually like that shrines are creatures now, because it means creature removal and normal wraths aren't just dead cards against it. Should make the deck a bit less all-or-nothing.

[Dragonlover]

So I went through the whole set last night, there's probably about 10 cards I'm after but the one that's gonna hurt is getting a foil Boseiju for Molimo. Hopefully my pre-releases are lucky.

Dragonlover

[Dunharrow]

The original kamigawa cards I have played the most are spirits. I have Yosei, the Morning Star in 3 decks. Kami of False Hope in two decks. I have an abzan spirit tribal deck that is mostly original Kamigawa. A few other spirits sprinkled here and there.
Gravelighter is the best inclusion for these decks. Junji, the Midnight Sky seems good too.

So I am really surprised that this set is helping my Sydri, Galvanic Genius vehicle deck more than anything.

Unforgiving One and Kodama of the West Tree seem interesting for my Reyhan, Last of the Abzan deck... maybe it will fit.

Legendary lands are very good, will try to get a few for sure.

[DirkGently]

Wow, I just realized that Greasefang, Okiba Boss can easily T3 the freaking Parhelion II. Hello Entomb my old friend.

I might have to make a deck around that...

[Wallycaine]

Wow, I just realized that Greasefang, Okiba Boss can easily T3 the freaking Parhelion II. Hello Entomb my old friend.

I might have to make a deck around that...

I love the idea, but I keep running into the issue of there not being a ton of *other* Vehicles worth reanimating, or even running. There's probably a handful, and Kamigawa added to it, but it feels hard to squeeze a full 100 cards out of that without going all in on tutoring for parhelion.

[DirkGently]

Wow, I just realized that Greasefang, Okiba Boss can easily T3 the freaking Parhelion II. Hello Entomb my old friend.

I might have to make a deck around that...

I love the idea, but I keep running into the issue of there not being a ton of *other* Vehicles worth reanimating, or even running. There's probably a handful, and Kamigawa added to it, but it feels hard to squeeze a full 100 cards out of that without going all in on tutoring for parhelion.

uh yeah duh that's why I'm gonna do exactly that.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I thought the commander decks previewed today

[Hawk]

Commander decks went up today. Lists are here, cards are being slowly added to Nexus and are all over other spoiler sites.

Chishiro, the Shattered Blade - the deck seems so unplayably awful I had to immediately post a correction. It's just a mess, largely because Chishiro and Kaima, the Fractured Calm want very different things from a deck. With only 13 auras and equipment (plus Smoke Spirits' Aid which admittedly seems hot) it's gonna struggle to trigger Chishiro's first ability reliably, and a Commander that is just Rumbling Baloth + End Step +1/+1 on your modified guys is pretty weak sauce. But in terms of value this deck is great - Bear Umbra was up to $15, and lots of other stuff was hovering in the 4-6 buck range (Rhythm of the Wild, Whiptongue Hydra. Mage Slayer). In terms of new cards in it, Silkguard is half of what makes Heroic Intervention a perennial staple in any +1/+1 counters deck alongside the Thrive/Strength of the Tajuru effect while Kami of Celebration is a slam-dunk in Prosper, Tome-Bound. But most of the new cards feel pretty jank, narrow, and weak. Special shout-out to Kosei, Penitent Warlord who feels like total bait.

Kotori, Pilot Prodigy - has the opposite problem. This deck feels very strong and functional out of the box, with Kotori, Pilot Prodigy and Shorikai, Genesis Engine naturally synergizing (and also synergizing with Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage). Almost every relevant vehicle you could want from an old set gets a reprint here, preventing any spiking of Skysovereign, Consul Flagship and Parhelion II that might have happened due to this set. This deck also got a lot of the spicier new stuff - Drumbellower seems like a staple as half of Seedborn Muse at half the price, while Swift Reconfiguration is near-staple as well as the newest in the line of Darksteel Mutation effects. Organic Extinction, Imposter Mech, Access Denied, Aerial Surveyor, Universal Surveillance, and Release to Memory feel a little more narrow, but still applicable to a lot of decks and archetypes. But the reprint value is pretty poor here. Big slops to WotC for having several UWx decks in the last year with no Talisman of Progress reprint.

[tstorm823]

Chishiro, the Shattered Blade - the deck seems so unplayably awful I had to immediately post a correction.

I'mma respond here to something you said over there: this is not the least coherent commander deck. That award should always belong to Political Puppets, the deck that was 1/3rd Zedruu the Greathearted, 1/3rd Ruhan of the Fomori, 1/3rd generic control deck. The one big finisher spell was Insurrection, but it was also playing above average number of board wipes. It had Rapacious One but no way to make it connect. It had Punishing Fire but the only guaranteed way to recur it was to donate Zedruu after stealing something of theirs. It had a clash subtheme. Just pure nonsense.

[Mookie]

Precon stuff...

• Organic Extinction looks overpriced, but improvise is a bit difficult to evaluate. An asymmetric board wipe is pretty much always worth consideration, at least.
• Ironsoul Enforcer makes me want to attack with Sharuum the Hegemon, which is... usually not a thing that happens. Could be fun.
• Cyberdrive Awakener is an incredibly janky Overrun variant. I guess Tezzeret the Seeker and Rise and Shine exist, but the added evasion makes it much easier to sneak in a kill.
• Imposter Mech is complete nonsense. It only copies opponents' creatures, which limits it significantly, but two mana clone with board wipe synergies seems amusing.
• Aerial Surveyor looks awesome. Everything Cartographer's Hawk wishes it were. Lives through board wipes and works well with just playing creatures to crew it.
• Universal Surveillance looks quite potent. Sorcery is a meaningful downside compared to Blue Sun's Zenith, but cost reduction is strong.
• Drumbellower goes straight into Samut. Man, I was not expecting tap ability synergy from the precons, but I guess untapping the creatures you crew your vehicles with? Either way, it looks quite nice.
• Swift Reconguration is hilarious. I can definitely see it shutting down some creature-light decks.
• Tanuki Transplanter is interesting - making Ghalta, Primal Hunger or another giant creature into a mana dork seems very amusing.
• Rampant Rejuvenator also looks quite solid - there aren't many creatures capable of ramping out 2+ lands, and this can get even more if supported.

A fair number of artifact synergy cards look interesting. I'm less excited by the RG deck, but it still has a couple options. I assume people that actually have counter / aura / equipment decks are more interested in what it has.

[5colorsrainbow]

I very much like the vehicle deck, its exactly what I wanted the WU side of a WUR vehicle I wanted with most of the cards I wanted in it too.